USA Flies Through China Airspace

[Guest Derek L]

I'm afraid that I don't think he's trying to have a genuine discussion. Vote Trudeau.

I agree......a true Mr Canada redux it appears.

[Guest Derek L]

Remember, with these types of folks, two B-52s over Bird Pooh Island equals provocative move against a sovereign nation's waters. Two Tu-95s over Canada's Arctic equals something we should get used to.

But of course........

[Guest Derek L]

Though a Canadian incident, I figure the story can tie into this topic:

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/12/20131201-125254.html

A Toronto man allegedly tried to supply China with classified information related to border security, according to the RCMP.

Officers arrested Qing Quentin Huang, 53, under the Security Information Act on Friday.

He is charged with two counts of attempting to communicate information the Canadian government is safeguarding to a foreign power.

Huang worked for a company that builds patrol ships, frigates and naval auxiliary vessels for Canada.

edit to add the release form the RCMP:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/2013/12-01-siane-lpico-eng.htm

From the moment the RCMP was informed of the criminal nature of the actions, it initiated a Criminal Investigation dubbed Project Seascape. “National Security Investigations are complex and this one was no different,” added RCMP Chief Superintendent Larry Tremblay, Director General of the RCMP’s Federal Policing Criminal Operations in Ottawa. “It is important to understand that there is more to National Security than focusing solely on terrorism. It’s about protecting Canadian interests and taking the steps we need to take to protect our sovereignty.”

Any bets on who the Canadian Government was helping the Americans spy on in Toronto?

Edited December 1, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

The Chinese military has known for decades that it has not the ability to invade Taiwan, yet they believe they are near term the ability to adopt said “defence zones” (an approach taken by the Japanese during the war I might add) and establish a doctrine of anti-access and area denial onto their foes…….Once the establishment (and defence) of both of these zones is concreted, only then could they reproach their “wayward” Province…….

And from today:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131201/DEFREG03/312010004/More-Chinese-Air-ID-Zones-Predicted

Sources indicate China’s ADIZ could be part of its larger anti-access/area-denial strategy designed to force the US military to operate farther from China’s shorelines.

China might also be planning additional identification zones in the South China Sea and near contested areas along India’s border, US and local sources say.

And of course, said zone in the South China Sea will encompass the Spratly (oil rich seabed around)Islands as discussed here a few years ago:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/19588-war-in-south-china-sea/

A zone along the Indian border will be the precursor to a (perhaps nuclear) war between China and Pakistan versus the “West” and India.

[socialist]

Then why did you ask and post a link to an op-ed that suggest that it could?

To encourage discussion. Personally, I think it is much to do about nothing, similar to North Korea. North Korea is a threat to no one.

[bush_cheney2004]

The DPRK is a threat to itself, China, and other countries in the region. For instance, China and South Korea do not want to deal with millions of starving refugees.

[Guest Derek L]

And further news:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/02/us-japan-china-planes-idUSBRE9B104220131202

(Reuters) - The U.S. Navy's first advanced P-8 Poseidon patrol aircraft has arrived in Japan, the start of a deployment that will upgrade America's ability to hunt submarines and other vessels in seas close to China as tension in the region mounts.

The deployment, planned before China last month established an air defense zone covering islands controlled by Japan and claimed by Beijing, includes six aircraft to be delivered to Kadena air base on Okinawa this month.

I’m certain the Chinese will contribute many such prey to the hunt.......

[bush_cheney2004]

...I’m certain the Chinese will contribute many such prey to the hunt.......

India already has a few P-8s to add to the fun. If China wants to play with the big boys, it will need much better toys.

[Guest Derek L]

India already has a few P-8s to add to the fun. If China wants to play with the big boys, it will need much better toys.

Soviet sub hunting was great fun in the 80s…….But now you see, the younger generation gets to hunt the now dated Soviet designed Chicom subs with better technology………

[bush_cheney2004]

Soviet sub hunting was great fun in the 80s……

The Chinese are about to find out that the Americans have wired the entire planet. The Soviets hated how SSN's would hold them in trail for weeks, so now we will see the Chinese version of "Crazy Ivan".

[GostHacked]

The DPRK is a threat to itself, China, and other countries in the region. For instance, China and South Korea do not want to deal with millions of starving refugees.

Not to worry most of North Korea has no idea that the rest of the world exists. They won't be going anywhere.

[Guest Derek L]

The Chinese are about to find out that the Americans have wired the entire planet. The Soviets hated how SSN's would hold them in trail for weeks, so now we will see the Chinese version of "Crazy Ivan".

And unfortunately for the Chinese, most of their sub force is roughly equivalent to where the Soviets were in the mid to late 70s, when the bulk of their fleet was made up of Foxtrots, Tangos, Charlie’s and Victors…….In any conflict, I’d expect their subs, corvettes and missile boats to have some level of success based on sheer numbers alone and the “fog of war” leading to mistakes on our side, but their Blue Water fleet if traversing outside of land based air cover would not have much of a life expectancy……

[Guest Derek L]

In further news:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131206/DEFREG03/312060022/South-Korea-Expand-Air-Defense-Zone

SEOUL — South Korea is announcing next week that it will extend its air defense identification zone in response to China’s declaration of a new air defense zone overlapping the country’s southern islands and underwater rock.

I wonder how long until Japan does likewise…..

The ministers agreed to expand the zone to include the southern islands of Marado and Hongdo, as well as the Ieodo Ocean Research Station. The station is built on top of a submerged rock formation within the overlapping exclusive economic zone of South Korea and China. The new Chinese air defense zone covers Ieodo, which is effectively controlled by South Korea.

So both China and South Korea have overlapping zones…….So what was once a Chinese/Japanese dispute, that would see the Americans drawn in through treaty obligations, now includes the South Koreans…..And of course, one other:

Amid heightened tension triggered by China’s new air defense zone, the navies of South Korea, the US and Britain plan to carry out maritime exercises in the southern waters off the Korean Peninsula.

The two-day exercise is set to take place Dec. 8-9 and mobilize a South Korean Aegis destroyer, the US Navy cruiser Shiloh and a Royal NavyDaring-class destroyer.

And the Royal Navy destroyer is the class namesake HMS Daring, which was diverted last month on it’s way home to provide aide in the Philippines after the typhoon hit…..in essence, the British have extended the sea time of Daring, in a region, “East of Suez”, that the British have rarely operated in since their self imposed retrenchment post ~1970.………

This situation has the potential to spiral and get:

[WiZ]

"Brain-eating" amoeba in USA is due to Muslim immigrants.

That shocking death of a four-year-old boy in Louisiana was surely depressing news. They say it was due to some parasite in water supply, amoeba causing brain-eating infection. Brrrr....
Frankly, I was really scared for I've got two kids and also live in Louisiana. So I tried to get more information, more details.... You know, my distant relative somehow dealt with the investigation, sort of biology expert. Without going into detail it comes just to this. The boy was playing this slip and slide game we all know, and he got that rare amoeba through his nose.
The experts tested not only the water but the rubber blanket used in the game too. It was of Chinese make and the company supplying these blankets has got lots of immigrant employees of Muslim origin. You might know this sort of folks. They just can wash their hands twice a week and they can't see what's actually wrong with it! So experts found hell of other parasites on that damned blanket which may cause several deadly infections too!! Unfortunately I failed to remember them all.
We must demand tough control over those Muslim folks coming into this country from some far away regions of the world so rich in infections of all sorts! Sure thing, we must control all immigrants but Muslims should be our special worry imo! They appear to pose deadly threat to our country.

[Guest Derek L]

And in Japan:

http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/japan-to-hike-mid-term-defense-spending-by-5

Japan will raise its defense spending over the next five years by about 5% to 24.6 trillion yen to respond to China’s growing military budget, according to a report in the Nikkei financial daily.

And they plan to purchase:

The spending plan includes an additional purchase of F-35 fighters, made by Lockheed Martin Corp, as well as two more Aegis warships, bringing the total to eight.

Japan is also buying the tilt-rotor Osprey surveillance aircraft, built by Boeing Co and Textron Inc’s Bell Helicopter unit, and drones including Northrop Grumman Corp’s Global Hawk.

And of course the Realpolitik:

http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/japan-asean-call-for-freedom-of-the-skies

Japan and Southeast Asian countries agreed Saturday on the importance of freedom in the skies, in the first major gathering of the continent’s leaders since China ramped up regional tensions with a controversial air defence zone.

The cautious show of support for Tokyo in its bitter row with Beijing came as Japan pledged $20 billion in aid and grants for the region.

[Guest Derek L]

And this from the other day:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-12-13/chinese-military-ship-confronts-u-dot-s-dot-cruiser-as-tensions-rise

A U.S. Navy guided-missile cruiser had a confrontation with a Chinese military ship on Dec. 5 in the South China Sea, underscoring rising tensions in the region over China’s newly declared air defense zone.

The USS Cowpens, operating in international waters, and a Chinese naval vessel “had an encounter that required maneuvering to avoid a collision,” the U.S. Pacific Fleet said yesterday in a statement.

This is par for the course, and during the Cold War near misses (and not so near missies) happened with great frequency with NATO and Warsaw Pact Forces……..

China was probably angry that the Cowpens may have been trying to spy on China’s only aircraft carrier, which was operating in the area, said Dean Cheng, an analyst at the Heritage Foundation’s Asian Studies Center in Washington.

The poor Chinese must of not enjoyed having their aviators conducting flight ops being painted by the Cowpens’ SPY-1 radar…….Welcome to the major leagues China

[WWWTT]

Just watched on CCTV 4 some updates on this incident.

The B-52 bombers flying through the newly declared Chinese air defence perimeter were not armed and were not even flying in an hostile posture.

Nor is the air defence perimeter a "no fly zone".

Japan still has commercial flights going through frequently.

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but it seems that the US is the one that is making the mountain out of the submerged rocks (identified by a bouy).

In other news, the Chinese just successfully landed an explorer on the surface of the moon! Unable to verify the alleged NASA lunar landings (still without independent verification). Oh well, maybe by the 50th anniversary, there may come independent confirmation.

WWWTT

[TimG]

The B-52 bombers flying through the newly declared Chinese air defence perimeter were not armed and were not even flying in an hostile posture.

That is the spin now - Chinese bloggers were up in arms about the "humiliation".

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but it seems that the US is the one that is making the mountain out of the submerged rocks (identified by a bouy).

You clearly have missed the point. South Korea and Japan have a territorial dispute about some rock that is under South Korean administration after it was seized in the 50s. Japan's ADIZ does not include this rock. Same for Russian controlled islands in the north. China's unilateral decision extend an ADIZ over disputed territory was deliberate provocation.

In other news, the Chinese just successfully landed an explorer on the surface of the moon!

So what? Anyone who wants to spend enough money could do it with the widely available technology.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Unable to verify the alleged NASA lunar landings (still without independent verification). Oh well, maybe by the 50th anniversary, there may come independent confirmation.

But very easy to verify that Canada has never done it without independent verification.

[WWWTT]

That is the spin now - Chinese bloggers were up in arms about the "humiliation".

Do you really believe the US would send armed bombers into a newly declared air defence zone used by Japanese commercial airlines?

Perhaps I have made a mistake here. It seems that it's the Japanese are making the mountain out of the molehill here and is stringing along the US.

Either way, the Chinese have very successful business connections, and playing down a minor instance would be in their interest.

WWWTT

[TimG]

Perhaps I have made a mistake here. It seems that it's the Japanese are making the mountain out of the molehill here and is stringing along the US.

Only because you appear to be internalizing the Chinese media spin. I explained why the Chinese declaration of the ADIZ was an act of aggression. That explanation should be sufficient to establish that China created a problem.

Either way, the Chinese have very successful business connections, and playing down a minor instance would be in their interest.

The problem with China is the Communist party has been using anti-Japanese propaganda as part of its strategy to unite its people after the Tienanmen Square massacre. This has created a massive contingent of nationalist Chinese who are more concerned with "saving face" than with good business. On top of this you have a military that is not completely under the control the civilian government which makes the chance of an accidental war extremely high. Declaring a region of airspace over your neighbor's territory as an ADIZ makes such a conflict even more likely. Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Only because you appear to be internalizing the Chinese media spin. I explained why the Chinese declaration of the ADIZ was an act of aggression. That explanation should be sufficient to establish that China created a problem.

The problem with China is the Communist party has been using anti-Japanese propaganda as part of its strategy to unite its people after the Tienanmen Square massacre. This has created a massive contingent of nationalist Chinese who are more concerned with "saving face" than with good business. On top of this you have a military that is not completely under the control the civilian government which makes the chance of an accidental war extremely high. Declaring a region of airspace over your neighbor's territory as an ADIZ makes such a conflict even more likely.

On the first paragraph, the US was the first country to establish air defence zones and has them all over the place. So using your logic, the US would have been the initial aggressor. But I personally believe that the US would be more inclined to help China become more established as the power house in the region so that they can recede and focus more on internal issues.

On the second paragraph, you sound like you don't know many Korean, Filipino, Chinese Hong Kong people. Millions of Chinese and Koreans have died at the hand of Japanese. My friend John from Hong Kong, tells me both his brothers were be headed by the Japanese during the occupation. Heard similar stories from Taiwan and Korea.

I know some here are looking forward to a war with China, but you're going to be really disappointed when it never happens.

I remember lots of folks here on this forum fanning the flames about an Iranian invasion! So how did that one go? How about Syria?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

The problem with China is the Communist party has been using anti-Japanese propaganda as part of its strategy to unite its people after the Tienanmen Square massacre.

I think you're some decades off.

http://ca.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7pRKa65SCCYAlYYXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnZlZnRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=11tp22ga5/EXP=1387191242/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fist_of_Fury

WWWTT

[TimG]

On the first paragraph, the US was the first country to establish air defence zones and has them all over the place. So using your logic, the US would have been the initial aggressor.

Ah no. Try reading my argument. Can you give me one example where the US established an ADIZ over territory claimed by another country without permission of that country? Only China has done that which makes China the aggressor.

On the second paragraph, you sound like you don't know many Korean, Filipino, Chinese Hong Kong people. Millions of Chinese and Koreans have died at the hand of Japanese.

And many more Chinese died at the hands of Mao. What is your point? WW2 is ancient history. Anyone who knows anything of the region today knows that the only threat to the peace comes from a China. That is why people from Manila to Singapore are very much in favour of Japan increasing its military capabilities despite the history.

I know some here are looking forward to a war with China, but you're going to be really disappointed when it never happens.

I hope it never happens. The trouble is the politics inside of China today is not a lot different from politics inside Japan prior to WW2 and things could spin out of control really fast. If China really wants peace it has a simple way forward: stop trying annex territory. As long as China seeks to expand its borders by force it is the agressor. Edited December 16, 2013 by TimG

[WWWTT]

And many more Chinese died at the hands of Mao. What is your point? WW2 is ancient history. Anyone who knows anything of the region today knows that the only threat to the peace comes from a China. That is why people from Manila to Singapore are very much in favour of Japan increasing its military capabilities despite the history.

Ah the Mao thing again. Got news for you, when I visited Mao's ancestral home near the city of Changsha in Hunan province, there was literally thousands of people there that day to pay their respects to one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century!

So how many visit Reagans/Nixon's grave? Ya thought so!

Well anyways TimG, if you think that there's going to be a war, then just like the Iranian scenario, not going to happen.

But it sounds like that China is getting the attention of a lot of people crying foul, they must be doing something right then!

WWWTT