There is no such thing as an "Israeli".

[Moonlight Graham]

By Neve Gordon:

For years when I travelled abroad, people would often inquire about my name and nationality. I, of course, would answer without hesitation: “I am Israeli”.

Recently, however, I learned that there are no Israelis in Israel. Sounds odd? It does to me, particularly considering that there are Egyptians in Egypt, Germans in Germany, Mexicans in Mexico, and Canadians in Canada. So why are there are no Israelis in Israel? Because the Israeli Supreme Court ruled on the matter in early October, stating that there is no proof of the existence of a uniquely “Israeli” people.

Three High Court justices rejected a petition filed by several Israelis who had requested a change in the registration in their identity cards. The plaintiffs in the registration case were asking that the Interior Ministry write “Israeli” instead of making the distinction between Jewish, Arab, or Druze in their nationality category.

Headed by Supreme Court President Chief Justice Asher Grunis, the three-judge panel declared that it was not the court’s mandate to determine new categories of nationality. Justice Hanan Melcer also noted that in the current situation “citizenship and nationality were separate”, adding that there was no reason to create a new nationality that would unite the different people living in Israel under a single inclusive identity. Such a move, he insisted, “was against both the Jewish nature and the democratic nature of the State”.

The crux of the matter is that the High Court fears that if Israeli citizens are allowed to be categorised in the state registry as Israeli instead of Jewish, Arab, or Druze then the Jewish character of the state will be jeopardised.

...

“This consensus,” Ornan continued, “enables the Jewish majority to have full control over the country and to operate not for the benefit of Israeli citizens but for the benefit of the current political majority among the Jews.”

...

The engineered distinction between the Arab and Druze has, for example, been crucial for producing separate social groups and hampering efforts to forge solidarity among Israel’s Palestinian population. Moreover, after years of political activism, I have come to understand that the most feared solidarity in Israel is actually the one between Jews and Palestinians. Granted that most Palestinians would not want to identify as Israeli, the Court, as an instrument of the state, was unwilling to allow the creation of a category that potentially could - officially and formally - unify these currently divided groups.

Is this just? Is there indeed "no proof of the existence of a uniquely “Israeli” people"? I'm sure if Israel was 100% Jewish then calling someone "Israeli" in such a manner wouldn't be a problem.

[eyeball]

It's like Israelis just wiped themselves off the map.

Weird.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, isn't this about ensuring that the Jewish religion controls Israel, even in the case where they are in a minority of population ? What is Israel, if it's not a Jewish state ?

[Topaz]

Could there be more Jewish people living outside of Israel like North America and France?

[Rue]

By Neve Gordon:

Is this just? Is there indeed "no proof of the existence of a uniquely “Israeli” people"? I'm sure if Israel was 100% Jewish then calling someone "Israeli" in such a manner wouldn't be a problem.

The above article has misrepresented the decision.

The decision did not say there was no such thing as an Israeli or an Israeli citizen. That is not what the decision said.

What the decision said was then defining the ethnic identity of an Israeli citizen, the state will continue to allow Israeli citizens to refer to their ethnicity as Arab, Druze, or Jewish. It would be illogical to wipe out the ethnic status of Arabs who could be Jewish, Christian or Muslim, let alone Druze, Felashies, Muslim Israelis who settled in Israel as refugees from the former Yugoslavia.

Its interesting. If all Israelis ethnicities were wiped out would this not be racism and denial of the right to people to identify as their actual ethnic group?

Are you suggesting in Canada we get rid of any ethnic designation?

Do you know of any country that extinguishes peoples identities and turns them all into one generic type?

The inherent nature of Israel is to assure the state remains a Jewish state. The point is to assure the state will always enshrine the right of Jews to be the majority in that state. That is open, that is blatant. That is the point of Zionism to assure that Jews have their own state and will never again be a minority in that state. There is nothing sinister about that.

There is nothing different with that than how over 125 other states have similar laws to retain majority status of a certain ethnic hgroup over others. Ireland, Italy, China, Formosa, Japan, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Belgium, the Ukraine, Jordan,

Iran, Russia, to name but a few countries have similiar laws.

Funny when Israel does it, suddenly its confusing? Its hard to fathom that you could be Israeli and not be Jewish, Arab, Druze?

Some Jews are Arab or Mizrahi/Tsfardic Jews. Some are Ashkanazi. Some are Felashie. Its not all black and white.

Zionism and the Jewish state based on the fundamental principle of Zionism, recognizes non Jewish Israeli citizens and its crucial they do so as not to impose Jewish culture or religion on such people. The ethnic status is crucial so that for example Arab Israelis who are Muslim or Christian have the right to appear before their own religious courts and vote for their own members of the Knesset and by recognizing more than one ethnic group in Israel it enshrines Arabic for example as an official language of the country as well not just Hebrew to accommodate their needs.

[bud]

The inherent nature of Israel is to assure the state remains a Jewish state. The point is to assure the state will always enshrine the right of Jews to be the majority in that state. That is open, that is blatant. That is the point of Zionism

the only way israel can maintain this is by having racist and discriminatory laws and policies.

There is nothing different with that than how over 125 other states have similar laws to retain majority status of a certain ethnic hgroup over others. Ireland, Italy, China, Formosa, Japan, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Belgium, the Ukraine, Jordan,

Iran, Russia, to name but a few countries have similiar laws.

false.

neither of those countries have citizenship laws where someone would be unable to bring their non-japanese, non-iranian, non-ukrainian, etc., spouse into the country and sponsor them to become citizens. they all allow citizenship and naturalization of spouses, no matter what their ethnicity or religion is. israel doesn't because israel has racist laws and policies.

[Bonam]

neither of those countries have citizenship laws where someone would be unable to bring their non-japanese, non-iranian, non-ukrainian, etc., spouse into the country and sponsor them to become citizens. they all allow citizenship and naturalization of spouses, no matter what their ethnicity or religion is. israel doesn't because israel has racist laws and policies.

There are plenty of countries with very difficult immigration policies that allow very few people of any kind in, period. Countries are free to restrict immigration as they see fit. In the case of Israel, it has a goal to maintain certain demographics and aligns its immigration policy accordingly, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is no universal human right to immigrate to Israel.

[Bonam]

Well, isn't this about ensuring that the Jewish religion controls Israel, even in the case where they are in a minority of population ? What is Israel, if it's not a Jewish state ?

I certainly agree with your general sentiment that Israel is the Jewish state and that it is appropriate for it to take steps to ensure that. However, it's important to note an error here... Israel is a state that belongs to the Jewish people, not to the "Jewish religion". In fact, Israel is a largely secular state, much like most Western nations, and many Jews embrace the notion of the separation of church and state. There are many atheist and agnostic Jews, both in Israel and abroad. Jew is as much an ethnic/racial designation as it is a religious one, and means different things to different people.

[Rue]

the only way israel can maintain this is by having racist and discriminatory laws and policies.

false.

neither of those countries have citizenship laws where someone would be unable to bring their non-japanese, non-iranian, non-ukrainian, etc., spouse into the country and sponsor them to become citizens. they all allow citizenship and naturalization of spouses, no matter what their ethnicity or religion is. israel doesn't because israel has racist laws and policies.

the only way israel can maintain this is by having racist and discriminatory laws and policies.

false.

neither of those countries have citizenship laws where someone would be unable to bring their non-japanese, non-iranian, non-ukrainian, etc., spouse into the country and sponsor them to become citizens. they all allow citizenship and naturalization of spouses, no matter what their ethnicity or religion is. israel doesn't because israel has racist laws and policies.

The only thing false are your statements. A citizen born in Israel whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian, Druze, Arab, Jewish, etc., have the same rights. If someone wants to become a citizen who was not born in the country, and is not Jewish, then they are treated in a different manner yes. The laws of the state are designed to fast track entry for anyone Jewish. Doing that is in fact something done by the other states I mentioned.

You are absolutely wrong. Dead wrong. If I am of Japanese ancestry but not Japanese, I will be fast tracked for Japanese citizenship.

If I am a Japanese citizen and want to bring in a Japanese ethnic wife, she is fast tracked. If she is white she would not be.

Stop stating falsehoods. Go find out what the laws of these nations state. Stop misrepresenting Israeli domestic laws that are applied equally to all ethnic groups. Stop making falsehoods that people are discriminated because of their ethnicity if they are a citizen. Its false.

Also I call you out on this and explain how Sharia law in fact discriminates against its non Muslim citizens but Israeli laws do not.

Immigration laws for criteria to become citizenship are one thing, laws that apply to actual citizens are another. You suggest they are one and the same and because there are selective laws as to immigration criteria that makes a country racist. It does not.

I call you out and say you stated a falsehood as to the laws and immigration criteria of Japan, Belgium, China, Formosa-Taiwan, Latvia, Estonia, Russia, Ireland, Italy, Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Ukraine, Lithuania, Greece, Jordan, Egypt, to name but a few countries.

This post and thread by the way repeat this theme that has been on this forum repeatedly in the past and now recycles itself yet again.

[Rue]

Here are the laws of return in just some nations across the world that are no different than Israel's:

• Armenia: Article 14 of the constitutionprovides that "individuals of Armenian origin shall acquire citizenship of the Republic of Armenia through a simplified procedure." This procedure is provided by Article 13 of the Law on Citizenship, which specifies inter aliathat citizenship shall be conferred upon stateless persons of Armenian heritage who have taken residence in Armenia. In practice, Armenia has granted citizenship to ethnic Armenians who move to Armenia and renounce their former nationality.
• Bulgaria: Article 25 of the 1991 constitutionspecifies that "person of Bulgarian origin shall acquire Bulgarian citizenship through a facilitated procedure." Article 15 of the Law on Bulgarian Citizenshipprovides that an individual "of Bulgarian origin" may be naturalized without any waiting period and without having to show a source of income, knowledge of the Bulgarian language or renunciation of his former citizenship.
• Croatia: Article 11 of the Law on Croatian Citizenshipallows emigrants and their descendants to acquire Croatian nationality upon return, without passing a language examination or renouncing former citizenship. In addition, Article 16 permits "a member of the Croatian people who does not have a place of residence in the Republic of Croatia [to]acquire Croatian citizenship" by making a written declaration and submitting proof of attachment to Croatian culture.
• Finland: Finnish law provides a right of return to ethnic Finns from the former Soviet Union, including Ingrians. Applicants must now pass an examination in the Finnish language. [Ed. note: I have been informed by Jussi Jalonen, based on a translation of the Finnish Directorate of Immigration web site, that certain persons of Finnish descent who live outside the former Soviet Union also have a right to establish permanent residency, which would eventually entitle them to qualify for citizenship.]
• Germany: Article 116(1) of the German constitutionconfers a right to citizenship upon any person who is admitted to Germany as "refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such a person." At one time, ethnic Germans living abroad (Aussiedler) could obtain citizenship through a virtually automatic procedure, but since 1990 the law has been steadily tightened to limit the number of immigrants who can come each year and require proof of language skills and cultural affiliation.
• Greece: Ethnic Greeks can obtain Greek citizenship by two methods under the Code of Greek Nationality. Pursuant to Article 5, ethnic Greeks who are stateless (which, in practice, includes those who voluntarily renounce their nationality) and who "really behave as Greeks" may obtain citizenship upon application to a Greek consular official. In addition, ethnic Greeks who join the armed forces acquire automatic citizenship by operation of Article 10, with the military oath taking the place of the citizenship oath.
• Hungary: Section 4(3) of the Act on Nationalitypermits ethnic Hungarians (defined as persons "at least one of whose relatives in ascendant line was a Hungarian citizen") to obtain citizenship on preferential terms after one year of residence. In addition, the "Status Law" of 2001grants certain privileges to ethnic Hungarians living in territories that were once part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and permits them to obtain an identification card, but does not confer the right to full Hungarian citizenship.
• India: Persons with at least one Indian great-grandparent may apply for a Person of Indian Origin card, provided that neither the applicant nor any ancestor has ever been a citizen of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan or China. This card is a travel document and permits the holder to enter and stay in India without a visa, own land and attend educational institutions, but not to vote or hold office. In addition, persons of Indian origin who are nationals of certain specified countries (again subject to an exclusion for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) may apply for Overseas Indian Citizenship, which confers similar rights and also permits the holder to apply for full Indian nationality after one year of residence.
• Ireland: The Nationality and Citizenship Actallows any person with an Irish grandparent to become an Irish citizen "by registering in the Foreign Births Register at an Irish embassy or consular office, or at the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin." Such an individual may also pass his entitlement to Irish nationality on to his children by registering in the Foreign Births Register even if he chooses not to take up citizenship himself.
• Israel: The Law of Return, as amended in 1970, confers an automatic right to citizenship on anyone who is Jewish by birth or conversion, or who has a Jewish parent or grandparent.
• Italy: Persons of Italian descent may claim citizenship through a maternal grandparent if neither the grandparent nor their mother has ever renounced Italian nationality.
• Kiribati: Articles 19 and 23 of the constitutionprovide that "[e]very person of I-Kiribati descent... shall... become or have and continue to have thereafter the right to become a citizen of Kiribati" and that "[e]very person of I-Kiribati decent who does not become a citizen of Kiribati on Independence Day... shall, at any time thereafter, be entitled upon making application in such manner as may be prescribed to be registered as a citizen of Kiribati."
• Lebanon: Lebanese law currently makes no provision for reacquisition of nationality by members of the diaspora, but a pending government proposalwould permit descendants of Lebanese emigrants to acquire an overseas identity card that confers rights similar to the Person of Indian Origin scheme.
• Poland: The Statute on Polish Citizenship, as amended in 2000, permits the descendants of Poles who lost their nationality involuntarily between 1920 and 1989 to take up Polish citizenship without regard to ordinary naturalization criteria.
• Romania: Romanian expatriates who lost their citizenship prior to December 22, 1989, as well as their children and grandchildren, may reclaim their nationality upon presentation of a declaration and supporting documents.
• Russia: Until recently, persons holding Soviet passports could exchange them for Russian Federation nationality on a virtually automatic basis. The 2002 amendmentto the Law on Russian Federation Citizenship, however, puts substantial qualifications on this right, including language and financial requirements and preferences for immigrants who have a secondary education or who join the armed forces. Former Soviet citizens may, however, still apply for Russian citizenship without a waiting period.
• Rwanda: Article 7 of the Rwandan constitutionprovides that "Rwandans or their descendants who were deprived of their nationality between 1st November 1959 and 31 December 1994 by reason of acquisition of foreign nationalities automatically reacquire Rwandan nationality if they return to settle in Rwanda." In addition, "[a]ll persons originating from Rwanda and their descendants shall, upon their request, be entitled to Rwandan nationality."
• Serbia: Article 23 of the 2004 citizenship law provides that the descendants of emigrants from Serbia, or ethnic Serbs residing abroad, may take up citizenship upon written declaration.
• Slovakia: A person with at least one Slovak grandparent and "Slovak cultural and language awareness" may apply for an expatriate identity cardentitling him to live, work, study and own land in Slovakia. Expatriate status is not full citizenship and does not entitle the holder to vote, but a holder who moves his domicile to Slovakia may obtain citizenship under preferential terms.
• South Korea: The law of South Korea grants special statusto descendants of ethnic Koreans who emigrated after 1922. As with India and Slovakia, this status falls short of full citizenship and does not confer political rights, but permits them to live, work, own property and conduct business in South Korea.
• Spain: Citizenship on preferential terms may be obtained after two years' residence by Andorrans, Portuguese, citizens of Latin American countries, the Philippines or Equatorial Guinea, and Sephardic Jews.
• Turkey: Turkish law allows persons of Turkish origin, and their spouses and children, to apply for naturalization without the five-year waiting period applicable to other immigrants.
• Ukraine: Article 8 of the Law on Citizenship of Ukraine permits any person with at least one Ukrainian grandparent to become a citizen upon renunciation of his former nationality.

Here is the law of nationality of Japan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law

Also you can refer to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rue

[eyeball]

I didn't see the Palestinian law of return.

[Bonam]

I didn't see the Palestinian law of return.

I'm sure that when they get their act together and found their own state, they will consider such a law.

[bush_cheney2004]

I didn't see the Palestinian law of return.

I didn't see one for Canada either (e.g. Acadians).

[Rue]

Jordan had a law of return for Palestinians. For those of you wondering where it is, go find out why Jordan removed it.

[bud]

A citizen born in Israel whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian, Druze, Arab, Jewish, etc., have the same rights.

no. they don't have the same rights. among many other discriminatory laws inside israel, jews have special land rights that palestinians do not. there are countless other laws and you, yourself, gave an example of it and contradicted your above claim that they all have the same rights.

a palestinian in israel cannot sponsor to bring his/her spouse into israel, while a jew in israel could.

it's very simple and i will repeat again, so there is no misunderstanding what this discriminatory law is:

if you're a jewish israeli and want to bring your jewish spouse into the country, you can.

if you are a palestinian israeli and want to bring your palestinian spouse into the country, you can't.

If someone wants to become a citizen who was not born in the country, and is not Jewish, then they are treated in a different manner yes. The laws of the state are designed to fast track entry for anyone Jewish. Doing that is in fact something done by the other states I mentioned.

since there is no 'slow track' process for non-jews, it's disingenuous for you to try to compare the immigration laws with other countries and try to tell everyone they're the same. a japanese citizen can bring their non-japanese spouse into japan. a palestinian israeli cannot bring their non-jew spouse into israel. why? because the israeli immigration and citizenship laws are among many discriminatory and racist laws in israel.

you're losing another battle with facts and reality again.

Edited November 7, 2013 by bud

[Rue]

Palestinian Israeli? This is exactly the kind of nonsensical terminology you use to misrepresent the laws of Israel.

How can you be Palestinian and Israeli at the same time?

That is an expression you continue to use in your many threads to try refer to non Israeli citizens who identify as Palestinians and who will not recognize the right of Israel to be a Jewish state and want to return to Israel and be given land rights taking land away from existing Israeli citizens. Nice try though to once again deliberately mislead.

There are Arab Israelis as they call themselves or Muslim Israelis but they do not wish to give up their Israeli citizenship because they live the highest standard of living of any Muslim in the Middle East.

You can misrepresent the laws all you want Bud but the fact remains non Jewish Israelis have all the rights Israeli Jews have.

The Supreme Court of Israel has enforced land rights of non Jewish Israelis repeatedly.

The very same laws that are selective as to who becomes an Israeli citizen apply to anyone not just Palestinians who are NOT Jewish.

You are absolutely wrong saying the laws you quoted do not allow Arab Israelis to bring in Palestinian wives. False as can be. They may not allow fast tracking to immediate citizenship but it is a falsehood to state the laws will not allow Arab Israeli citizens to marry them or that their children born in Israel will not be Israeli citizens or their wives are prevented from living in Israel and eventually becoming citizens. I repeat again that is and out and out falsehood.

They are not discriminated against because of not getting fast tracked for Israeli citizenship because of being a race or Palestinian but because they do not meet a specific definition of "Jew" for the purpose of being fast tracked. That same law is used against Christians and other non Jews, and could even be used against me a Reform Jew if I married a non Jew. That of course Bud will not discuss.

Bud you have now tried to switch away from the immigration criteria for fast tracking after misrepresenting it repeatedly and rather concede you made a false statement in your previous comments about Japan's laws, you now try switch away from Immigration fast tracking laws to the classic Israel is "racist" canard and discuss other laws. That little side step Bud is an old technique of when getting busted trying to switch the topic.

No Bud. No switcheroo with moi.

Simply trying to maintain a majority population of a certain type of ethnicity is something many countries have laws that try to. That Bud is the very reality you won't deal with but accuse me of ignoring. Lol.

In an ideal world no country would define people by ethnicity Bud, in the real world many countries do and in your selective fantasy world Bud, only Israel does.

In the real world, Muslims do and they call it Sharia law and they used that law for centuries to persecute, attack and discriminate against Jews forcing Jews to flee and create a nation so they would no longer be dhimmi. You can ignore the context from which Jews fled the Middle East nations and needed their own nation to avoid Muslim persecution but that is the reality you won't acknowledge.

You will also not acknowledge the reality of the treatment of Jews in Europe and how Israel became the only place survivors of the holocaust could turn to. You won't acknowledge that reality. You do in fact repeat the revisionist history that Jews are colonialists not people who fleed the colonialists. You spin the history that the Jews who came to Israel didn't flee persecution but simply were nasty people wanting to steal land from Arabs-land Turks owned from a distance and used to exploit these very Arab peoples.

You create a fantasy world where all Arab peoples who want to call themselves Palestinians can, but if a Jew wants to call themselves an Israeli, they can not unless that Israeli status denies their right to protect their ethnicity from persecution.

You twist and spin because in your world the reality is Jews do not have the equal right to have their own nation as you think Muslims do in Sharia law nations or the United Kingdom does as an Anglican nation or the Vatican does as a Catholic nation or how Hinduism is so closely connected to and protected in the Indian constitution and so on.

You pretend Israel is the only country that tries to assure an ethnic majority of a certain kind of people. If the Ukraine, Japan, China, Ireland, Belgium, etc., does it, no problem. If Jordan has a law which it does prohibiting Jews from owning land or becoming citizens, you have no problem. In fact you have no problems with the discrimination and second class treatment imposed on non Muslims in Muslim countries but selectively claim Israel discriminates against people because they are Palestinian or Muslim.

I call bullshit again. A country that enshrines Arabic as one of its official languages, has assured the election of 14 Arab Knesset members, has an Arab Supreme Court Judge, provides Muslims and Christians their own religious courts to deal with family law,

has promulgated numerous legal decisions upholding the right of non Jews to own land, allows non Jews to opt out of military service, provides them access to over 125 free legal non profit organizations to represent their rights, is not the nation you are dedicated to misrepresenting.

You avoid reality. Your political agenda and script will never concede that Muslim states are in fact discriminatory and engage in all the things you accuse Israel of.

Your political agenda and script does not allow you to admit that Muslims in Israel have all the rights Jews are not allowed in Muslim countries.

Israel has many problems with its laws. It has many laws that discriminate against people. Some of its laws contain discrimination against Jews like me, i.e., Reform Jews. Some laws have gender bias. There are Arab Israeli citizens contesting land disputes with the state government and they are winning some and losing some. (see next post)

Arab Israelis openly criticize their government in the press. They have the same passports. They have the same hospitals and schools.

The other way around is not the case for Jews in Muslim countries.

You Bud once again were busted for misrepresentation of laws, got caught, try to focus the attention away from the laws you misrepresented and swing back to the same old tired canard about Israel.

You also do what you always do, try mix the legal issues of non Israelis on the West Bank with Arab Israeli citizens to make them appear to be the same.

Busted again Bud.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

You can misrepresent the laws all you want Bud but the fact remains non Jewish Israelis have all the rights Israeli Jews have.

uhm. arab israelis. whatever you want to call them. despite another attempt at trying to derail the obvious fact still remains that arab/muslim/palestinian israelis are not able to bring in their arab spouses into israel, while jewish israelis are able to bring their jewish spouses into israel.

it doesn't matter how long a post you frantically type, and how often you pat yourself on the back, you can't change the fact that israel has different set of rules for its citizens, based on their religious backgrounds.

Edited November 8, 2013 by bud

[bud]

incase you wanted a list of these discriminatory laws (both inside israel and in the occupied territories), you can start here:

There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures.

israeli discriminatory laws

Edited November 8, 2013 by bud

[Rue]

uhm. arab israelis. whatever you want to call them.

you can't change the fact that israel has different set of rules for its citizens, based on their religious backgrounds.

To start with Bud, you are the one trying to misrepresent Arab Israelis as Palestinians not I. Its not a matter of me wanting to call them anything. Its an issue of you deliberately misrepresenting them and then when you get called out for doing that, trying to sluff it off.

Its not a matter of what I want to call anyone-it is a matter of you misrepresenting identities as an exercise to mislead and you have been called on it yet again because this is not the first time you have engaged in this exercise of trying to pass of Palestinians and Arab Israelis as being one in the same.

In regards to your second c omment you make no sense. I am not and have never tried to change the fact that Israel has different rules based on perceived ethnic status. I have repeatedly stated Israel provides fast tracking for those deemed as Jews which non Jews do not have. I have never denied that.

What I have challenged is your attempt to misrepresent the purpose behind it or as you did to suggest its racist.

What I will now also state is you once again show your ignorance as to how the law works.

The fast tracking is predicated on Jewish ethnicity. The concept of Jewish ethnicity might include Jewish religious status but could apply to Jews who are atheists.

You Bud do not understand the laws you talk about because you can't grasp what Zionism is or how when it defines who a Jew is does not do it based solely on religion.

You also do not understand that humanist, Reconstructionist and Reform Jews face discrimination in Israel because of how the Orthodox Rabbinical courts define Jew. You don't understand the discrimination Mizrahi Jews and Ethiopian Jews have faced.

In your fantasy world only Palestinians have been treated unfairly and again I call bullshit.

Israel struggles to define who a Jew is. Therefore its immigration and domestic laws are not perfect as it struggles and tries to define and maintain a Jewish identity to its state.

This does not make it racist. Race has nothing to do with the laws-perceived ethnicity or nationality might and the fact that selective criteria may be used when considering new citizens is one issue-how it treats ALL peoples born in its nation is another and you

can spin all you want but people born in Israel not of the Jewish faith, have the same legal rights as Jews and in many cases have better rights than myself a Reform Jew. You would understand that if you took the time to find out how the laws actually operate and how Muslims, Druze and Christians are given separate religious and family courts to assure their beliefs are not discriminated against.

Bud as quick as you misrepresent I will shoot those misrepresentations down. Call that frantic-I call it efficient. Boo.

[bud]

To start with Bud, you are the one trying to misrepresent Arab Israelis as Palestinians not I. Its not a matter of me wanting to call them anything. Its an issue of you deliberately misrepresenting them and then when you get called out for doing that, trying to sluff it off.

Its not a matter of what I want to call anyone-it is a matter of you misrepresenting identities as an exercise to mislead and you have been called on it yet again because this is not the first time you have engaged in this exercise of trying to pass of Palestinians and Arab Israelis as being one in the same.

they are known as arabs, muslims and palestinians. they are regarded as palestinian citizens of israel. why do you have such a hard time with simple facts? why do you have a need to continuously challenge facts?

In regards to your second c omment you make no sense. I am not and have never tried to change the fact that Israel has different rules based on perceived ethnic status. I have repeatedly stated Israel provides fast tracking for those deemed as Jews which non Jews do not have. I have never denied that.

What I have challenged is your attempt to misrepresent the purpose behind it or as you did to suggest its racist.

i'm not sure if this is a problem with your attention span and you have problems with focusing on what you are saying, or you're a troll who tries to derail talking about facts, which show the true side of israel, by contradicting not only facts, but also yourself, and sharing misinformation.

this is what you said earlier:

You can misrepresent the laws all you want Bud but the fact remains non Jewish Israelis have all the rights Israeli Jews have.

you are wrong. non-jewish israelis DO NOT have all the rights israeli jews have.

the fact that non-jewish israelis (aka arab israelis, aka palestinian citizens of israel, aka muslim citizens of israel) CAN NOT bring their spouses into israel, while jewish israelis can bring their spouses into israel, shows that you are wrong.

this is one of many discriminatory laws. you can see other discriminatory and racist laws in israel here: israeli discriminatory laws

[Rue]

Bud you stated

" they (Arab Israelis) are known as arabs, muslims and palestinians. they are regarded as palestinian citizens of israel. why do you have such a hard time with simple facts? why do you have a need to continuously challenge facts? "

I challenge the above because you do not state a fact, you state a subjective opinion. and pose it as fact. You know full well Palestinian refers to someone born outside Israel who identifies as Palestinian. One can not be a Palestinian and an Israeli. You not I try to change what is a fact to suit your new definition which is false but is designed to suggest any Palestinian is an Israeli.

That is what is being challenged. Bud you can try pass off your misrepresentation of Arab Israelis as Palestinians but you will be challenged on it. Its false.

You stated:

"i'm not sure if this is a problem with your attention span and you have problems with focusing on what you are saying, or you're a troll who tries to derail talking about facts, which show the true side of israel, by contradicting not only facts, but also yourself, and sharing misinformation."

The above evidences you can not debate me so you name call. Knock it off. either debate what I said or move on. The personal attacks are pointless. Do not accuse me of being a troll. Do not make personal attacks about my attention span. Speak to the issues or ignore me but do not attack me personally.

You then stated:

"the fact that non-jewish israelis (aka arab israelis, aka palestinian citizens of israel, aka muslim citizens of israel) CAN NOT bring their spouses into israel, while jewish israelis can bring their spouses into israel, shows that you are wrong."

No it does not. I never denied the above. In fact I produced the laws that state the above and explained why the law came about. What I challenged was not that the above law existed but why it came to be and I have challenged you saying because the law creates the above distinction it necessarily makes the entire country racist.

Once again Bud you misrepresented what I challenged and why. Stop it Bud. The tactic is not working and its precisely because Bud i do pay careful attention to your tactics of misrepresenting what has been stated by me and others.

You again repeated a list from a web site. Bud its your tactic. Repeat the same thing over and over and over. Say it enough times and you think it will become a given fact I will not debate. I know the tactic Bud and it does not work.

I repeat again, the list you provide is meaningless. It is meaningless because it comes from a web site that does not analyze the origins of the laws and ask why they were created and what they are intended to do. It ignores the fact that many of those laws discriminate no differently against Israelis who are Jews than it does Muslim or Christian or Druze or Beduin Jews.

It also shows once again how you mislead. Your original contention was that since these laws discriminate against Palestinians it makes them racist.

Now you water it down and your reference changes to simply it discriminates. That Bud is the key to your misrepresentations. When I directly catch your misrepresentation you try back away from what you said. No Bud. You came and stated the laws discriminate against Palestinians. Those laws do not discriminate against Arab Israelis any more than they do Christian Israelis, Jewish Israelis or Druze Israelis. A Jewish Israeli can not marry a Palestinian woman who is not Jewish as you are fully aware which makes your entire misrepresentation of the law blatant.

The law prohibiting fast tracking of non Jews for citizenship when they are Palestinian also applies if an Israeli Jew tries to marry a Palestinian non Jew.

stop misrepresenting the law. Stop misrepresenting laws designed to prevent either terrorism or to protect the Jewish ethnic majority of the state as racist. They are not. I repeat again and your misrepresentations have failed to prove it-the fact laws discriminate does not in themselves make them racist.

Your selective criticism of only the laws of Israel that "discriminate" while remaining silent as to the laws of all other nations that do the exact same thing shows crystal clear you try use the laws of Israel that protect its Jewish identity to discriminate against Israel and hold it to a different standard.

You Bud criticize Israel for discriminating by engaging in discrimination against Israel and blatantly so.

That Bud strips you of any credibility.

this is one of many discriminatory laws. you can see other discriminatory and racist laws in israel here: israeli discriminatory laws

[bud]

You Bud criticize Israel for discriminating by engaging in discrimination against Israel and blatantly so.

eh? okay?

so anyway. israel has many discriminatory laws against non-jews inside israel. there is no point in going over the others with you as you're having a hard time accepting this one: one of these discriminatory laws, is the citizenship law. where a non-jew israeli is prohibited from bringing their non-jewish spouse into the country. whatever the reasoning behind this law, it's still discriminatory and contradicts what you said earlier, which is:

You can misrepresent the laws all you want Bud but the fact remains non Jewish Israelis have all the rights Israeli Jews have.

[Rue]

Bud you repeat again your subjective opinion that:

"the citizenship law. where a non-jew Israeli is prohibited from bringing their non-jewish spouse into the country..." is discriminatory against non Jews. "

I never have disputed the above law exists and creates a fast track entry for non Israeli Jews to become Israeli citizens that will not be available to non Jews who are not citizens and want to become citizens.

You then stated:

" whatever the reasoning behind this law, it's still discriminatory..."

No Bud. Finish what you started. The reasoning behind the discrimination can not be dismissed. To understand the law the reasoning behind it needs to be examined.

Israel created a fast track system for Jews because they were fleeing persecution, the holocaust, discrimination.

That Bud is the context you won't acknowledge and it is crucial to understand why the l law was created. It came about to save Jews from extinction at the hands of non Jews. Your refusal to acknowledge it came about as a reaction to discrimination to protect victims of discrimination speaks for itself.

You Bud not only refuse to acknowledge the law of return was created to rescue Jews, but that when other states do it other than Israel you have zero problem.

Your attempt to state a law designed to rescue Jews from persecution is necessarily racist because its discriminatory is exposed Bud. So is your selectively ignoring all other nations with laws of return.

Er...um..? me all you want Bud you are busted-your use of discriminatory or selective criteria you will not apply to any other nation but Israel- the very same exercise you accuse Israel of doing. So Bud? Who died and allows you to practice what you denounce Israel for doing? Why is it acceptable for you to discriminate but not Israel?

Finish what you started Bud. Finish it. You never do. Explain why you won't accuse any other nation with a law of return as being racist.

You claimed I contradicted myself because I said Israel has the same laws for all its citizens regardless of their nationality but since I Israel does discriminate against non citizens wanting to be Israeli it means I contradicted myself. No Bud it does not.

The law that creates a fast track for Jews, is for NON citizens. At no time did I ever say Israel's laws for non citizens do not discriminate. I said the laws for its citizens do not discriminate.

You Bud came on this forum and continue to state laws that apply to non citizens and citizens of Israel are all the same and you can just lump them in an arbitrary list of 50 relying on a web site which has a political agenda to deny the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state and so like you will not analyze the purpose and function of the laws it claims discriminate.

The fact a nation has selective criteria for who can become a citizen is not new Bud. All nations do it. The criteria will be selective and change all the time.

Let's call it what it is Bud. In your discriminatory world, if Israel sets up its nation to provide refuge for Jews because other nations refused to take in Jews fleeing oppression, expelled Jews and stole their land leaving them stateless, or refused them entry as citizens precisely because they were Jews-that makes only Israel racist.

No Bud.

You don't get to ignore the context of why Israel had to create a state-that it created this fast track criteria for Jews to save them from death.

No Bud you will not as long as I am on this web set, ignore the context and purpose of the laws Israel has passed.

Israel is born from the ashes of murdered Jews from nations that have the very laws you criticize Israel for having Bud and as much as you try ignore the history of what compelled Jews to create their state, it won't go away.

Israel didn't just come out of nowhere Bud.

Spin away Bud but you can not change the context of history.

Bud makes your repeated decision to refuse to acknowledge let alone discuss the laws of return of other nations continues to expose your double standard against Israel.

Israel was created so that never again could people use their states to discriminate against Jews simply because Jews were Jews.

Never again.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

you keep saying "fast track" like there are any other tracks. you must acknowledge that they specifically made a law, in 2003, to not allow palestinian/muslim/arab israelis to bring their spouse's into israel. when you create a law like this against a specific group, you are discriminating against them.

Court okays Citizenship Law, legalizing discrimination of Arabs

According to the 2003 law, Arab citizens of Israel who marry Palestinians will have to emigrate in order to live with their spouses.

Israeli Arab MK Ahmed Tibi famously said that “Israel is indeed a Jewish-democratic state: it is democratic for Jews and Jewish for all the rest.”

link

[Rue]

Bud at no time have I ever denied the immigration laws discriminate. Continuing to pretend I did and that is what we are debating is not working. Your attempt to switch focus away from the issues you can't respond to from me are clear.

Move on Bud. You make it clear every time you respond to me you will just ignore the issues I challenge you for stating. Bud your attempts to slip, slide away are not working.

You see Bud, you can coat yourself in oil to get nice and slippery but all that happens is I will light a match-poof your words go. Now mind you sometimes feathers are good too. I am not sure what's more fun, your words burning up or suffocating themselves. Either one is fun. I don't discriminate.

Poof. Choke.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Rue