Eliminating Honour Rolls in Schools

[socialist]

I know this movement is gaining steam across Canada, and all I have to say is it is about time. All an honour roll does is hurt the self-esteem of those kids whose names do not go on the honour roll. We need to make sure all learners can succeed in school by learning at their ow pace. There is no need for competition when it comes to grades. I am alos glad to know that most schools are removing percentage grades from report cards. We need to also work to eliminate percentage grades from high schools.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/29/calgary-school-axes-honour-roll-saying-it-often-hurts-self-esteem-and-pride-of-students-who-dont-make-it/

[TimG]

The real world is full of competition.

Elementary students eventually need to compete for limited places in the university/college programs.

Graduates have to compete for limited job opportunities.

The students who succeed in those competitions will be the students who have learned how to compete.

Creating a false world of no-competition in elementary school will do more harm than good.

Edited October 30, 2013 by TimG

[Guest]

No, Socialist is right. We should stop making kids go to classes too, and who knows what harm is caused by making them get out of bed in the morning?

[Michael Hardner]

Creating a false world of no-competition in elementary school will do more harm than good.

I agree. Societies where merit is rewarded are healthy, IMO. Students will need to come to terms with their abilities and talents at some point, why not in school ? The education system should teach them to value their contribution, whatever it may be.

[Boges]

This seems like a good thread to post this link.

http://news.msn.com/us/texas-dad-alleges-bullying-in-91-0-football-game

The victory for undefeated Aledo High School forced an investigation after a parent from the opposing team filed a bullying complaint.

A Texas high school football coach whose undefeated team won its last game 91-0 said Wednesday a district investigation found "no grounds" to support a bullying complaint filed by a parent of the losing team.

State law requires school districts to investigate complaints of bullying. That includes the unusual accusations lodged by a parent following Aledo High School's lopsided victory Friday over Fort Worth Western Hills, which went beyond the usual magnitude of blowouts in Texas high school football.

Aledo coach Tim Buchanan said district administrators notified him the complaint had been cleared Wednesday.

"Basically, there were no grounds for bullying during the game, prior to the game or after the game," Buchanan said.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

I have no beef with honour rolls and think competition is very useful but I agree with the removal of percentage grades. IMO, classes should be concept based and follow the pass/fail model. Students would be required to learn each concept to the point of 'mastery'. Mastery can be defined different ways but it would be equivalent to scoring roughly 85% or better on traditional unit or chapter tests. Students stick with concepts until they master them, at which point they move on to the next.

This approach allows students to proceed at their own pace; working quickly through concepts they grasp well and spending more time on those they struggle with. This is a big improvement over our current model which has students move on to the next concept, which usually requires an understanding of the first, even if they are not ready. Of course they then struggle through the entire unit.

This model would require post secondary institutions to evaluate their own potential applicants, rather than using high school grades. I suppose a Canadian version of the SATs would be required along with application portfolios.

[TimG]

This model would require post secondary institutions to evaluate their own potential applicants, rather than using high school grades. I suppose a Canadian version of the SATs would be required along with application portfolios.

In other words, you want a system where only kids with parents that can afford after school SAT preparation services will go to university. Or do you expect kids who have never gotten more than a pass/fail to magically be able to perform well on such entrance exams.

Frankly, this entire 'protect kids from the real world' philosophy is counter productive. Competition exists. It is not enough to simply get a pass/fail in life - people who go above and beyond the minimum required receive more rewards. Kids should experience that reality in school.

Edited October 30, 2013 by TimG

[cybercoma]

I'm against honour rolls and percentage grades in elementary schools. When students focus on achieving metrics, they're not focused on learning the materials. The goal should be understanding and growth, not numbers or honour rolls. This is especially true in grade school, where it is the educators' responsibility, collaborating with parents of course, to help kids learn.

Edited October 30, 2013 by cybercoma

[GostHacked]

I'm against honour rolls and percentage grades in elementary schools. When students focus on achieving metrics, they're not focused on learning the materials. The goal should be understanding and growth, not numbers or honour rolls. This is especially true in grade school, where it is the educators' responsibility, collaborating with parents of course, to help kids learn.

I might agree with no grades up to about grade 4 or 5. However, parents need to be involved at all times. It starts with the parents not the teacher.

If you work hard and get that 100% or the honors, then you damn well deserve it. I did get honors on one degree, I worked my ass of for it. Unfortunately it was in IT technology and much if that is way out of date.

[-1=e^ipi]

The original poster is trolling... right?

Am I the only person that thinks this is a troll thread?

If so, good job socialist. Many posters took the bait.

But wait.. some people are agreeing that grades should be removed? And they are serious? :S

[bleeding heart]

Whether or not poster "socialist" is an outright troll or not, he or she quite obviously, and consistently, goes to some lengths to be provocative, maybe for provocation's own sake.

[GostHacked]

Whether or not poster "socialist" is an outright troll or not, he or she quite obviously, and consistently, goes to some lengths to be provocative, maybe for provocation's own sake.

Get out!! That does not happen here and you know it.

[guyser]

The original poster is trolling... right?

Absolutely !

[socialist]

The original poster is trolling... right?

Am I the only person that thinks this is a troll thread?

If so, good job socialist. Many posters took the bait.

But wait.. some people are agreeing that grades should be removed? And they are serious? :S

|If you want to call me a troll, feel free. I am a progressive educator. I base my thoughts on current research. I don't live in the past and thin k things need to go back to the way they were in the 50s. I promote the learning of 21st century skills.

So far, the only people on this forum who have an inkling of common sense when it comes to education are cybercoma and Mighty AC. That is sad.

[Mighty AC]

In other words, you want a system where only kids with parents that can afford after school SAT preparation services will go to university. Or do you expect kids who have never gotten more than a pass/fail to magically be able to perform well on such entrance exams.

Testing still takes place within the system I described. However, there is less of a focus on summative testing designed to give a grade and more on formative testing designed to provide feedback and show students the areas they need to work on.

Currently, we teach a unit at the same pace to the entire class. Give a test and then move on to the next. In the end we held one portion of the class back, forced a different portion to move too quickly and have a grade representing just a snapshot of how students performed for one hour on a particular day. This is not an intelligent or efficient way to teach. It makes far more sense to allow students to master concept A before moving on to subsequent concepts which build on A.

Now if we are going to teach concepts to the point of mastery, what use is a grade? At that point students either know it completely or they don't, it's a pass or fail check.

[TimG]

This is not an intelligent or efficient way to teach. It makes far more sense to allow students to master concept A before moving on to subsequent concepts which build on A.

Most people are fundamentally lazy. They do not put in effort unless there is a reason to put in effort (there is likely a evolutionary basis for this phenomena). Having to learn material within a fixed time frame is one way to provide an incentive. Your system simply creates deadbeats because there is absolutely no incentive to put in the required work. Edited October 30, 2013 by TimG

[GostHacked]

Most people are fundamentally lazy. They do not put in effort unless there is a reason to put in effort. Having to learn material within a fixed time frame is one way to provide an incentive. Your system simply creates deadbeats because there is absolutely no incentive to put in the required work.

I think the value of doing the work is missing. The reasoning why the work needs to be done. People are as lazy as the system allows them to be. And we constantly and collectively don't care how low that bar goes. The system is set up to create lazy thinkers. School is designed to give you a whole work force of generics. Higher education gets specialized and costs a lot.

I do agree that if a child excels at a certain thing like math, well throw more math at the kid. Don't waste the child's time and don't waste the teachers time. Yes we all need to understand the basics, but once that is done, then we can begin 'discovery' methods that Socialist talks about. Geared teaching.

Lower classroom student numbers instead of cramming 30+ kids in a single class. IN many cases we do not have teachers, just regurgitators of curriculum.

One of the few teachers that made me actually think was my Ancient History teacher in high school. I did not do well , I barely passed. But he got me to a stage no other teach had been able to do..... and this was grade 10. He treated us like humans, not children or students.

[-1=e^ipi]

|If you want to call me a troll, feel free. I am a progressive educator. I base my thoughts on current research. I don't live in the past and thin k things need to go back to the way they were in the 50s. I promote the learning of 21st century skills.

So far, the only people on this forum who have an inkling of common sense when it comes to education are cybercoma and Mighty AC. That is sad.

So you are a 'progressive educator' that wants to promote 21st century learning vs 1950's learning...

... Yeah I think you are trolling.

[Mighty AC]

Most people are fundamentally lazy. They do not put in effort unless there is a reason to put in effort (there is likely a evolutionary basis for this phenomena). Having to learn material within a fixed time frame is one way to provide an incentive. Your system simply creates deadbeats because there is absolutely no incentive to put in the required work.

I find it amusing that you see a system that forces students to take more responsibility for their own learning as creating deadbeats.

Currently if a student fails to grasp a concept and receives a 60% on the test, we leave it at that and move on. Next class the teacher delivers new content for the next concept. What incentive is there for a student to fill in the gaps in their understanding? Almost zero. Additionally, what happens to the students who completely understand a concept a week before the test date? Are we using their time wisely?

If the only reason for teaching or learning a concept is a the fact that it is on the test then it probably shouldn't be taught in the first place.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Mighty AC

[-1=e^ipi]

Currently if a student fails to grasp a concept and receives a 60% on the test, we leave it at that and move on. Next class the teacher delivers new content for the next concept. What incentive is there for a student to fill in the gaps in their understanding? Almost zero. Additionally, what happens to the students who completely understand a concept a week before the test date? Are we using their time wisely?

If a person doesn't grasp a concept then why are they only getting a 60% instead of an F? Because we don't want to hurt people's feelings?

And if a student is failing, then shouldn't they just retake the class, giving them an opportunity to re-learn what they did not grasp?

[socialist]

So you are a 'progressive educator' that wants to promote 21st century learning vs 1950's learning...

... Yeah I think you are trolling.

Ummm...do you understand 21st century skills? Rote memorization 50s style is useless; that includes memorizing times tables and doing long multiplication and division. If I need to multiply large numbers I pull out my smartphone. Why waste time doing boring multiplication?

[cybercoma]

I might agree with no grades up to about grade 4 or 5. However, parents need to be involved at all times. It starts with the parents not the teacher.

If you work hard and get that 100% or the honors, then you damn well deserve it. I did get honors on one degree, I worked my ass of for it. Unfortunately it was in IT technology and much if that is way out of date.

You're talking post-secondary. Which should reward students for excelling. Grade school should be more focused on what the kids individually learn, than their position relative to others.

[GostHacked]

You're talking post-secondary. Which should reward students for excelling. Grade school should be more focused on what the kids individually learn, than their position relative to others.

I agree that they should learn, but if we don't recognize and enhance their strengths at a young age, then the possibility of that correcting itself in university is very low.

I am not saying the basics should not be taught, but we can't wait for university to allow a child to excel ( or to be recognized as excelling in a certain area) at something they are good at. Students learn one way in grade school, and another way in university. Why can't we combine the two concepts? Why force them on one way of learning during the most important stage in a child's intellectual development, and once ingrained, now tell them they need to learn a different way of learning? That's a dangerous course to follow.

Grades matter, and school curriculum matters.

[The_Squid]

The original poster is trolling... right?

Am I the only person that thinks this is a troll thread?

If so, good job socialist. Many posters took the bait.

But wait.. some people are agreeing that grades should be removed? And they are serious? :S

Generally, yes. The poster does start trolling threads. This isn't one of them however. This one actually links to a real story and started a conversation. Edited October 30, 2013 by The_Squid

[Wilber]

Ummm...do you understand 21st century skills? Rote memorization 50s style is useless; that includes memorizing times tables and doing long multiplication and division. If I need to multiply large numbers I pull out my smartphone. Why waste time doing boring multiplication?

What do you do if you forget your phone or the battery goes dead? All you are telling me is you need an electronic crutch to do something really basic. That's not a skill.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Wilber