Female Israeli soldiers speak out about the Israeli sickness

[DogOnPorch]

Bonam said "always".

I don't find the concept of Zionism as 'aggressive'. No more than the concept of Canada. The problems came when the British appointed the very anti-Semitic Haj Amin al-Husseini to an "official" position he technically already held. That of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. This pretty much gave al-Husseini a free run at stirring-up trouble. And stir he did. The first pogroms followed soon after his appointment. Interesting also is that al-Husseini was a major purchaser of Empire lands...much like the Jews, who according to some here...stole the land rather than bought it.

[jacee]

What you think you can come on this forum and denigrate Jews and the right of Jews to a nation

You are totally out of proportion, out of context and out of line.

and I have sunk to a new low?

Yes, a new low in personal attacks.

Shall I now denigrate how you were "brought up"?

I sometimes find that you have interesting perspectives, but the personalized and generalized vitriol decreases the value of your posts substantially.

[Guest American Woman]

Zionism = Racism

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!” —Martin Luther King, Jr.

[GostHacked]

You said that. I didn't. I'd appreciate it if you stick to what I write.

I would appreciate it too. Not like you to twist words right?

How about you? How many future masscres of Jews by terrorists in Israel are you willing to excuse?

Terrorists IN Israel? Or terrorists from outside Israel?

[DogOnPorch]

I would appreciate it too. Not like you to twist words right?

I don't twist words.

Edited October 19, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

You are totally out of proportion, out of context and out of line.

Yes, a new low in personal attacks.

Shall I now denigrate how you were "brought up"?

If someone comes on this forum and uses words to denigrate Jews, Zionists and Israelis I will challenge those words.

I will not sit silently by while someone ridicules Israeli soldiers for showing compassion by accusing them of having a mental sickness.

I will challenge words that call for the destruction of Israel couched as a reference only to Zionists as if the intent changes and that call for destruction then becomes acceptable because it only targets those who think Israel should remain a Jewish state.

I will challenge people who portray all Zionists as uncaring oppressors then in the next breath show they are in fact compassionate and caring about Palestinians but use that compassion to ridicule them and their right to exist.

I will challenge someone who comes on this board and tries to get a giggle about his dislike of Zionists.

I will challenge the concept its acceptable to hate Jews if they are Zionists and its acceptable to hate people who believe Jews have a right to a state.

As for your selectivity as to what you find acceptable and unacceptable in my comments on this thread, I do not care.

The very fact you chose to attack me personally in suggesting I attacked others personally speaks for itself.

Your comment making reference to how I was brought up is interesting. At no time did I question anyone's upbringing. My words challenged their comments as to Jews, Israelis, Zionists.

I have not questioned how anyone was brought up.

I question the repeated negative generalizations about Jews, Israelis and Zionists or anyone who defends Israel's right to exist.

I did not come on this board to insult Palestinians and suggest they are all terrorists because they want a nation.

I did not come on this board making such statements as Sharia law is a cancer and needs to be wiped out.

I didn't come on this forum suggesting since the Mufti of Jerusalem and the original Palestinian movement against Jews was aligned with Hitler, all Palestinians are Nazis.

I have come on this board repeatedly and challenged those who make sweeping negative statements about Palestinians or Palestinians who want a nation or Muslims, just as much as I have when they have done the same about Jews, Israelis and/or Zionists.

Can you say the same?

How is it you remain silent on the use of Israeli soldiers' compassionate statements as a propaganda tool to ridicule these very soldiers by referring to them as mentally ill?

How do you justify your selective righteousness?

On this one what you think of me as well as your reference to questioning my upbringing contradicts the very righteous position you try pose your criticism to me from.

Practice what you preach. Challenge my arguments if you want.

Make references to my upbringing, lol.

I have made it clear many a time I am a bastard particularly when my people are humiliated, insulted and attacked for wanting to live as Jews.

Its public domain.

You be as subjective and selective as you want what you think of me personally or how I was brought up is immaterial to the comments made and what I have said in my responses.

No it is not acceptable to say its ok to hate people as long as they are Zionist and that makes it o.k.

That is a pile of b.s.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't find the concept of Zionism as 'aggressive'. No more than the concept of Canada....

Agreed...if the occupation and control of land in North America is good enough for Canada or the USA, it's good enough for Israel !

[Rue]

DogOnPorch, on 18 Oct 2013 - 5:49 PM, said:

You said that. I didn't. I'd appreciate it if you stick to what I write.

I would appreciate it too. Not like you to twist words right?

Rue, on 18 Oct 2013 - 5:37 PM, said:

How about you? How many future masscres of Jews by terrorists in Israel are you willing to excuse?

Ghost today at 8.26 a.m. you responded to above and stated:

"Terrorists IN Israel? Or terrorists from outside Israel?"

You demonstrate the very thing you criticized Dog for.

Also the point was clear. You criticized Israel for having engaged in terrorism but you were silent about

those who engaged and continue to remain dedicated to terrorism against Israel.

[Rue]

This thread started by referring to Israeli soldiers as being sick and Israelis wanting to live as Jews in a Jewish state as being sick.

It took the words of IDF soldiers concerned about hurting innocent Palestinians into a political pretext to suggest Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state.

The above remarks were challenged.

Several other comments were made referring to the origins of the conflict on the West Bank including a sub-debate as to the actual number of Palestinians displaced during the War of 1948 as well as a comment from Ghost making a negative reference to Zionists.

The point is this is one of many threads started by Hudson/Bud to denigrate the concept that Jews have a right to live as a collective nation and anyone who agrees with that concept is open season and its acceptable to hate such people.

I challenge that concept. I challenge the concept its o.k. to hate as long as you feel the people you hate are people you disagree with,

What an absurd attempt to debate. What an absurd way to establish credibility.

Its o.k. to hate people you don't agree with.

Better still if Jews agree with you, they are o.k., but if they don't well then you can come on this board and engage in references to calling them cancer and wiping them out.

I challenge that.

I challenge hatred of any kind.

I had an open, tense, drawn out debate with JBG over it. I attacked him as strongly as I do the people on this thread for saying words I considered negative and general about all Muslims or Palestinians.

We openly fought it out. He may not agree with me but he has shown me the decency to change the style of his references. He was a bigger man for doing that.

For those of you that can not understand why it is he or I or dog engage in these debates, it is because we feel it wrong to denigrate the right of Jews to live as Jews.

None of us who are Zionists on this board wish harm to Palestinian civilians. None of us wish a continued to state of war or conflict.

All of us agree we want peaceful co-existence but no we do not apologize for our right to be a collective so we can assure our continued existence.

If this board has demonstrated anything on this thread it is that certain people feel its possible to call for the wiping out of certain Jews but that is acceptable since those certain Jews believe they should be a nation.

To come on this board and selectively suggest Muslims can have Sharia law nations, the United Kingdom can remain an Anglican nation, so many other countries can continue with their close relationship between state and Christian church, but Jews can't is anti-semitic.

It is anti-Semitic because it necessarily advocates the pretext that until a Jew knows his/her place and that is without a nation unlike Christians or Muslims, until Jews agree to less rights than Christians or Muslims, its acceptable to call on wiping them out and referring to them as cancer and its acceptable to refer to Jews who "do not know their place" as Zionists and then use that word Zionist in a negative stereotype context to justify making killing and hating that Zionist easier.

Here I am Hudson/Bud. You keep bringing that message I will vigorously defend against the words and the implications any attempt to rationalize hatred and intolerance brings.

You think I am cancer Hudson/Bud that needs to be wiped out? Really? No I am the words of a Zionist and my words are identical to the words of a Palestinian seeking a nation.

It is why I respect Palestinians who say they want a nation and will find them and reach out to them and help them create one. Regardless of your attempts to share hatred for my people having a nation, I will as part of that very Zionist belief not stop until they have a nation too, and neither of us must live in the face of terrorism or people like Hudson/Bud urging on our destruction.

For anyone who thinks you speak for Palestinians when you call on the wiping out of Zionists you do not. You speak for yourselves.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Palestinians and Israelis-the every day Palestinian and Israeli want no conflict with one another. They are sick and tired of outsiders claiming to speak on their behalf and suggest either are wanting the other wiped out.

I do not speak for either. I bare witness to both being decent, compassionate, and capable of living in peace with one another and no HudonBud thread will prevent the peace from coming.

[jacee]

As for your selectivity as to what you find acceptable and unacceptable in my comments on this thread, I do not care.

The very fact you chose to attack me personally in suggesting I attacked others personally speaks for itself.

Your comment making reference to how I was brought up is interesting. At no time did I question anyone's upbringing. My words challenged their comments as to Jews, Israelis, Zionists.

I have not questioned how anyone was brought up.

Yes you did ...

Your comments indicate someone brought up to believe all Zionists think the same, do not criticize Israeli policies and all hate Palestinians.

... so I haven't bothered to read any more of your posts.

No it is not acceptable to say its ok to hate people as long as they are Zionist and that makes it o.k..

I never said that.

[bleeding heart]

Just incidentally, I guess, I agree with a point Rue made about these women: their remarks seem to come from a very human, soul-searching space, deeply personal and obviously painful.

Whatever politics are and are not involved, it's always good to be reminded that even the self-described "monsters" are rarely anything of the kind.

Edited October 20, 2013 by bleeding heart

[GostHacked]

DogOnPorch, on 18 Oct 2013 - 5:49 PM, said:

I would appreciate it too. Not like you to twist words right?

Rue, on 18 Oct 2013 - 5:37 PM, said:

Ghost today at 8.26 a.m. you responded to above and stated:

"Terrorists IN Israel? Or terrorists from outside Israel?"

You demonstrate the very thing you criticized Dog for.

Also the point was clear. You criticized Israel for having engaged in terrorism but you were silent about

those who engaged and continue to remain dedicated to terrorism against Israel.

I would really have loved another poem from you.

Dog does twist, I asked a question for clarification. The line had me confused as it was making a statement that the terrorists are in Israel.

How about you? How many future masscres of Jews "by terrorists in Israel" are you willing to excuse?

Now that depends on what is termed a massacre. I've seen it not applied equally in all cases.

[DogOnPorch]

I would really have loved another poem from you.

Dog does twist, I asked a question for clarification. The line had me confused as it was making a statement that the terrorists are in Israel.

Now that depends on what is termed a massacre. I've seen it not applied equally in all cases.

Example?

[GostHacked]

Example?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23053-chomsky-the-us-and-israel-are-rogue-states/page-7#entry923331

At least 3 posters called you out on it. That is one example. I gotta go through the Syria weapons thing again for the pot of gold stuff.

Edited October 20, 2013 by GostHacked

[DogOnPorch]

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23053-chomsky-the-us-and-israel-are-rogue-states/page-7#entry923331

At least 3 posters called you out on it. That is one example. I gotta go through the Syria weapons thing again for the pot of gold stuff.

Talk about twisting words. Killing terrorists became not treating POWs properly.

[Rue]

Well now Bleeding Heart succeeded in doing what none of you could-shut me up good. Thank you for that comment Bleeding Heart.

Now Ghost, you will not I commented on the person's comments. I do think they indicate someone who may have been conditioned into stereotyping an entire people. That was you reading into it I was belittling their parents or family values. It was nothing of the sort.

I have seen people born into lives where they inherit a certain series of perceptions of the other side-it starts very young and it can be hard to break through. Its part of a cycle of distrust and hatred, demonization and brutality, trauma and post trauma reaction to violence, war, terror, a sense of not being in control of one's life or destiny, an overwhelming feeling of having no purpose...of being trapped in a non stop event that incites depression (inwords) and anger(outwords).

That is the fact on the street where this arises. That is the fuel in which propaganda script writers try play on the people caught up in the events. They seek to inflame the hatred and anger because they themselves are brought up to believe that is righteous.

I challenge it directly. You want to twist it go ahead. At the pith and substance of conflict is a cycle where both sides detach from possibility, hope and peace.

You go ahead and try twist what I said to mean I am belittling someone's father or mother or their religion or spiritual values, etc.

Lol.

[Rue]

By the way Bleeding Heart, as you may know, in Israel, women have moral clout.

There is a matriarchal society and women have always been principle initiators of progressive change.

Israeli women are not afraid to show their opinions, feelings and compassion. They are no different

then Arabic women or Palestinian women. Don't mistake their femininity with weakness. HudsonBud clearly seem to be doing

just that.

The women of the Middle East on either side of the fence have been reaching out and it would not surprise me if

they are the ones who break this cycle of conflict.

[bleeding heart]

The women of the Middle East on either side of the fence have been reaching out and it would not surprise me if

they are the ones who break this cycle of conflict.

Sure, why not?

For what it's worth, I have no doubt whatsoever that the conflict, as we know it, will someday end. Here's hoping, however, that it ends well.

Generally, and usually, I feel more or less optimistic, but obviously I could be wrong.

[GostHacked]

You go ahead and try twist what I said to mean I am belittling someone's father or mother or their religion or spiritual values, etc.

I would prefer all your future responses in poem style. You think you can handle that big shot?

[dre]

I would prefer all your future responses in poem style. You think you can handle that big shot?

Lemme try!

Roses are red

Violets are blue

Hammas are ethnocentric militant wackjobs

And so is Rue

[bud]

this is what zionism is and this is why zionism should be rejected by israelis and jews around the world, as well as the governments of the western nations:

Former Israeli soldiers reveal some very inconvenient truths about institutionalized practices of intimidation and brutality towards Palestinians in the occupied territories, including night raids and arbitrary arrests unrelated to security, the use of human shields and other criminal behavior.

http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/features/2013/10/20/feature-7/

Edited October 22, 2013 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

Lemme try!

Roses are red

Violets are blue

Hammas are ethnocentric militant wackjobs

And so is Rue

You probably don't know how ironic a 'poem' that is. Ethnocentrism was coined by anthropologist/sociologist William Sumner. A staunch Skull & Bones anti-socialist and social Darwinist.

Hamas has one 'M', btw.

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Stop horsing around. Play the ball and not the player lest you sit out to watch the rest of the gang play!

Ch. A.

[Rue]

this is what zionism is and this is why zionism should be rejected by israelis and jews around the world, as well as the governments of the western nations:

Former Israeli soldiers reveal some very inconvenient truths about institutionalized practices of intimidation and brutality towards Palestinians in the occupied territories, including night raids and arbitrary arrests unrelated to security, the use of human shields and other criminal behavior.

http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/features/2013/10/20/feature-7/

Simply circling back to the original premises of this thread and repeating it does what exactly?

Aside from repeating the same point what was your point?

I can repeat againt that your exercise is inherenly flawed due to its lack fo logic and then?

When you repeat the exact same comments, I get the subjective impression the comments have been produced by a pre-programned automated response and not an individual because for me the words are rigid, stated in the exact same formula as the original and don't shed any information just a one sided command that asks people to engage in a sweeping negative generalization of anyone who supports a Jewish state.

Calling on people to negatively stereotype and engage therefore in hatred of an entire people does what exactly? How will it create peace?

How does calling for intolerance and discrimination enable peace?

When I have asked you those questions in direct response to generate debate you have ignored them in the past but circle back simply to the above kind of response which avoids the actual debate and simply makes the same statement over and over.

Thus I conclude from the comments and the lack of debate that the intent is not to debate but simply present an opinion and call to others to hate Israelis or anyone who supports Israel.

I state the above in an attempt to make it clear I am not name calling but challenging the comments.

The premises failed the moment you quoted these soldiers because:

1. you rely on the words of IDF soldiers as truth but at the same time ask your readers to eradicate all of them

2. your exercise assumes these are former soldiers-they are not, they are on call until at least 65, everyone who is an Israeli citizen is in the army unless they opt out for religious or medical reasons and these soldiers have not

3. the very compassion of these soldiers indicates the very qualities in the IDF and Zionists you deny

4.your comments ask to wipe out not just allegedly brutal people but people trying to make the brutal people more humane which is patently absurd let alone illogical.

Tell me do you think Hamas or Hezbollah members will openly criticize their command structure?

The reason these soldiers can is because the IDF is a civilian army and democracy prevails includinng freedom of speech.

That is a quality that does not exist in any other army of the Middle East let alone China, Russia or even NATO countries.

Its a quality of self criticism and self reflection that would not be permitted in professional armies but is in Israel because of the civilian nature

of the armed forces and everyone being on call up.

You mistake that compassion and self criticism as weakness. Its not. Its allowed deliberately as a way to get out in the open a painful topic the IDF and its soldiers slowly want to deal with in a way that will not endanger the security of Israel when it comes to defending against terrorists.

The IDF is like its civilians trying to signal the world it does not want to hurt civilians.

It was that simple a message.

You on the other hand have taken that message and tried to change its context to incorrectly state these are formaer soldiers who have rejected their country.

Make no mistake if their country was under attack from terrorists they would know what they have to do.

Do not mistake that duty which they do not question with the task of having to police civilians on the West Bank.

There are many veterans who look back on the role they played and question what they have done. This does not make them traitors to their country nor does it mean they gave up on their country.

Your attempt to use war veterans as pawns in a political message is transparent.

These soldiers were well aware there would be agents of propoganda waiting to try twist their words. They have clarified in their comments they are not anti Israel nor do they think terrorists should have carte blanch to wipe them out.

I know many of them and many US and Canadian vets. They are reluctant to discuss their opinions precisely because of people like you who will try use their words and take them out of their original context.

For me it is the only criticism I have of these soldiers. I think they could have done a better job of assuring their comments would not be misappropriated before they made them, but some have told me it does not matter what they say, there will be agents like you who will distort what they say anyways so they will chance it and speak from the heart.

I defer to the vets who shut up and turn inwords. I defer to why they become bitter at the world they were asked to defend and the inherent contradictions moral and otherwise in that exercise. It is part of a healing process to try self criticize. Unfortunately some people will not appreciate the point of the exercise or its attempt to try generate compassionate dialogue in search of peace with the "enemy".

No soldier in Israel. the US, Canada, etc., asks to be a civilian police officer. They are trained as soldiers. Of course they do not want to hurt civilians.

Your stereotype trying to label all IDF as evil unfeeling Zionist monsters has not worked.

You use the very words from them that evidences that assertion is an absurdity.

Now [lease move on and try some other sound bite. This one is spent don't you think?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

When you repeat the exact same comments, I get the subjective impression the comments have been produced by a pre-programned automated response and not an individual because for me the words are rigid, stated in the exact same formula as the original and don't shed any information just a one sided command that asks people to engage in a sweeping negative generalization of anyone who supports a Jewish state.

your subjective impression is wrong. i'm not repeating the same comments. i am shedding light into a dark and ugly ideology and a sick culture that you refuse to acknowledge. that bonam tries to portray differently.

israel has a powerful PR and it has a tireless group of people who will repeat the perception about who it is and what it does. the perception that it wants to create is the usual thing we hear:

- israel has "the most moral military in the world"

- israel is the only democracy in the middle east

- israel is under threat of violence and it needs to defend itself

- israel needs to be defended by the western world because of the above

the balance of information is changing rapidly. the truth, as according to what i and others try to bring up is different than the image israel tries to paint. the zionist movement, which is nothing more than colonialism and expansionism is losing support, because people are, more than ever, able to see what israel is really about. people are tired of the lies they see. we have evidence and information on our fingertips. we have international law and court rulings and we have a growing number of israelis and jews who are speaking out against israel's unnatural and immoral behaviour. most young jews outside of israel can no longer relate to israel and do not buy the israeli PR. this is a momentum that cannot be stopped. i'm simply part of this momentum that wants to see real justice and peace, instead of the status quo, which is the preservation of the harsh treatment of a group of our fellow human beings.

unless you come clean and accept the above, instead of deluding yourself, you will end up being on the wrong side of history much like the apartheid regime and its supporters were in south africa.

Edited October 22, 2013 by bud