Is everyone in hell?

[Accountability Now]

Interesting how that "lesson" has been used to subjugate women ever since.

No kidding! The ironic thing is that we see it in Christian religions for what I think is this reason but why do we see it in other religions like Islam where women are second rate citizens?

[bleeding heart]

All this being said, the one thing that you have to remember with the Bible is that it was written by the hand of man...and therefore is NOT perfect.

I'd wager that the poster with whom you're discussing this is more than aware of this fact. And it's part of the point of the critiques. A few very liberal churches aside, it is usually a given that most of the stories are in fact literal.

Secondly....historians are starting to realize that context is very important when reading biblical text. When they say "all the people"....that means all the people in their land (at that time) which was between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. They didn't know about any other parts of the world so keep that in mind. It is also very possible that the Tigris and Euphrates could actually flood that area enough to wipe it out....but not the entire world.

Its all about context but its clear that your disdain for religion is already biased based on your own experiences so I really should waste my time suggesting you take something and keep it in context.

I agree with you, but again, he IS taking it into context....the people who generally don't tend to take it in context are the faithful.

I was raised in a religiously tepid, religion-is-for-Sundays environment; a mainstream Anglican Church, not very conservative.

And yet to my knowledge, never--not once--not by a minister, or by another minister, or by the Sunday school teachers-- was anything you've said ever offered. The stories were presented as truth--without any of the context you mentioned.

This, to impressionable children.

So...when you tell a bunch of the faithful, including small children, that this and this is what happened...then you are implying (at least implying) that it is in fact "literal truth."

Aside from a few angry critics--Hitchens, Harris, et al--it is not the unbelievers who are dishonestly avoiding "context"...it's the faithful who are doing it.

Hell, if I had remained a Christian, I would have considered it my parental duty to inform my children of exactly the context you bring up. And no doubt some of the Faithful do just that.

But I'd wager the majority simply do not, leaving open the question of literal Biblical Truth. That's their bad.

[Accountability Now]

I'd wager that the poster with whom you're discussing this is more than aware of this fact. And it's part of the point of the critiques. A few very liberal churches aside, it is usually a given that most of the stories are in fact literal.

I agree with you, but again, he IS taking it into context....the people who generally don't tend to take it in context are the faithful.

I agree with you that most churches tell the story that it is literal however dre certainly gets hung up on the literal comments like 'all the human race dying' as suggested by the Noah story. As such I disagree with you in that dre is not taking these stories into context. He choses to downplay the reason why God acted as so which is not the same as taking something into context.

There is two ways to look at these stories...either as real or fiction. If real, people have to understand that there are issues with the translation and knoweldge base at that time. For example, people in that day didn't know the earth was round...so they wrote about the dome that covered the earth. Do we still believe that to be true? No...we've evolved into more knowledgeable humans. IMO, you need to put yourself in there shoes with their knowledge base at the time to see what they saw. We can then see how some of these irrational, literal statements (as we view them today) came about. It will then allow you to focus on the important parts. If the stories are fiction, then take the moral of the story and make it work. Or just leave it! Don't get so caught up that you direct your life in the opposite direction because of it.

So...when you tell a bunch of the faithful, including small children, that this and this is what happened...then you are implying (at least implying) that it is in fact "literal truth."

Aside from a few angry critics--Hitchens, Harris, et al--it is not the unbelievers who are dishonestly avoiding "context"...it's the faithful who are doing it.

I grew up in the catholic system but none of this stuff was ever forced down my throat...which made me lucky. I was always taught to take these stories with a grain of salt but I never felt I should discard them. It wasn't until I got to university and took a class called 'science versus religion' that I became aware of the brainwashing that a lot of religions have on their people. I certainly do not agree with the brainwashing any more than I agree with people who totally discard religion altogether just because everything doesn't make sense to them. Don't get me wrong...everyone is entitled to their opinion but I just don't agree with them.

[bleeding heart]

There is two ways to look at these stories...either as real or fiction. If real, people have to understand that there are issues with the translation and knoweldge base at that time. For example, people in that day didn't know the earth was round...so they wrote about the dome that covered the earth. Do we still believe that to be true? No...we've evolved into more knowledgeable humans. IMO, you need to put yourself in there shoes with their knowledge base at the time to see what they saw.

No question. I'm not judging them for ignorance, as I assume that after centuries have passed, some of our most cherished bits of "knowledge" will seem preposterous to people of that era.

Don't get so caught up that you direct your life in the opposite direction because of it.

I don't know that I ever had real faith, as such, and I'm not directing my life in the opposite direction of religion in any case. There is much to admire in the faith which I know best (Christianity), and I'm not living my life in reaction to it.

I'm simply not a Believer. That's it.

[Accountability Now]

I don't know that I ever had real faith, as such, and I'm not directing my life in the opposite direction of religion in any case. There is much to admire in the faith which I know best (Christianity), and I'm not living my life in reaction to it.

I'm simply not a Believer. That's it.

I'm not a believer in any one religion. I think its funny to see all the different religions out there bickering when they are really preaching the same thing. A few years back I saw this picture and I thought it summed it all up.

[Wilber]

No kidding! The ironic thing is that we see it in Christian religions for what I think is this reason but why do we see it in other religions like Islam where women are second rate citizens?

No doubt their god told them the same thing. Like the bible, the koran was written by and interpreted exclusively by guys. Edited August 27, 2013 by Wilber

[Shady]

No doubt their god told them the same thing. Like the bible, the koran was written by and interpreted exclusively by guys.

Women were subjugated before the bible or koran or accompanying religions even existed.

[Wilber]

Women were subjugated before the bible or koran or accompanying religions even existed.

Ya but that was just guys being assholes, then they invented religion and made it god's will.

[Bonam]

Women were subjugated before the bible or koran or accompanying religions even existed.

There were other religions before those, stretching back into the very beginnings of human history that we have any knowledge of.

[dre]

There were other religions before those, stretching back into the very beginnings of human history that we have any knowledge of.

Thats true but women were dominated simply because they could be. Human beings almost always form Patriarchial societies in almost all cases and religion merely reflects that, and has been designed by men to re-enforce it. In any case it has certainly made things much worse or at least dragged it on much longer. Woman are treated the worst in religion societies and the best in secular ones.

[BC_chick]

Woman are treated the worst in religion societies and the best in secular ones.

Well, Abrahamic religions anyway. It all started with The Old Testament which was drenched with misogyny and disdain for women. The New Testament wasn't *as* bad, but nothing to celebrate, full of patriarchal rules and victim-blaming. And finally, along came the Koran, or as I like to call it, Jealous Boyfriend For Dummies.

Non-Abrahamic religions weren't like that. The Greeks, American First Nations, Buddhists, Zoroastrians.... not to say that their societies weren't patriarchal, but their religions weren't fuelled by an innate fear of female sexuality as are the Abrahamic religions.

Edited August 28, 2013 by BC_chick

[Mighty AC]

There is two ways to look at these stories...either as real or fiction. If real, people have to understand that there are issues with the translation and knoweldge base at that time. For example, people in that day didn't know the earth was round...so they wrote about the dome that covered the earth. Do we still believe that to be true? No...we've evolved into more knowledgeable humans. IMO, you need to put yourself in there shoes with their knowledge base at the time to see what they saw. We can then see how some of these irrational, literal statements (as we view them today) came about. It will then allow you to focus on the important parts. If the stories are fiction, then take the moral of the story and make it work. Or just leave it! Don't get so caught up that you direct your life in the opposite direction because of it.

I completely understand that the authors of the bible were human, ignorant of the natural world and thus it contains many errors. Our current level of scientific knowledge will soon seem laughable as well. However, we do not attempt to pass off scientific ideas as unbending law and punishable by eternal damnation if broken.

Nobody would have a problem with the bible if, like Greek or Norse mythology is now, it was just considered a quaint book of legends, written by man. That isn't the case though, is it? Religions want us to believe that the book is the word of an omnipotent god and that its text is a rule book for the human race. In that regard the book fails miserably and leads to the ridiculous apologetic literature that desperately tries to make excuses for the many problems and logical failures. What's worse is the supposed divinity of the texts allow it to be used as justification for evil acts and as a source of oppressive power by those who grant themselves the authority to decipher it.

There is no evidence or reason to believe a god inspired any existing holy books and ample evidence to the contrary. The religious and George Michaels will say 'you gotta have faith', but should we really be teaching people that belief without substance is a virtue? We encourage critical thinking in every other area of life, yet blind adherence to a particular, painfully flawed and immoral old text is considered the decent thing to do. Odd..don'tcha think?

[Accountability Now]

Nobody would have a problem with the bible if, like Greek or Norse mythology is now, it was just considered a quaint book of legends, written by man. That isn't the case though, is it?

However people living at the times of Greek or Norse mythology did not believe it was a quaint book of legends, written by man. They believed that the gods touched down and gave it to them just as much as the Christians or anyother fanatics believe. However, after time it was exposed that just wasn't the case. I think the same thing is starting to happen with modern religion in that the fanatiscm is starting to wear as people are starting to realize flaws and some of the potential hype that once was. However, the bible has one thing that makes it hard to dispute....historical relevance. Moses, Jesus, David etc...they were all real people that walked this earth. History has no problem in proving they existed. Whether they did the things that are written can be questioned but the fact they walked this earth cannot. With all this being said, if Greek/Norse mythologies have the ability to teach a lesson and provide some sort of moral compass the same way the bible does then I would suggest you follow it too. Its all about the message and not the details.

There is no evidence or reason to believe a god inspired any existing holy books and ample evidence to the contrary. The religious and George Michaels will say 'you gotta have faith', but should we really be teaching people that belief without substance is a virtue? We encourage critical thinking in every other area of life, yet blind adherence to a particular, painfully flawed and immoral old text is considered the decent thing to do. Odd..don'tcha think?

You are correct. The proof of a god inspired intervention is not available. And yes we do teach critical thinking is important. So in today's modern day of knowledge and critical thinking then why do you explain that the overwheming majority of people still believe in a higher power in spite of our critical thinking? Jesus walked the earth nearly 2000 years ago and yet people are still worshiping him even in a time of critical thinking. Buddism, Hinduism, Confucism all started around the same time and are still going strong. The numbers may be decreasing but I don't believe atheism is making major leaps and bounds. People still believe in some sort of universal creator or spirit.

I think that most people are doing critical thinking when it comes to religion and most are realizing that you don't need the fanatiscm to make it work. In other words, they realize that you don't have to get caught up in the details which tend to send some people running in the other direction. If humans are involved then its bound to be full of error and critical thinkers are starting to realize that. However, the underlying principles of religion still remain in tact. Earlier I posted a picture of The Golden Rule which is commonly expressed by all religions. I can accept any critism or disbelief about religion but when all show this same common thread, then there must be something to it.

[Mighty AC]

When the scriptures condone many evil acts, like say slavery, and humans choose to ignore the immoral parts, I'd say it is people providing the positive message not the religion. The fact that several man made belief systems contain a similar 'golden rule' type message suggests that those ideas existed before the creation of those particular religions.

You seem to be supporting the idea of spreading a positive humanist message, which is great. Since it is people that are supplying the morality and we're in agreement that the texts are not divinely created laws, why not just dump the religious baggage and preach for an increase in human well being?

[Accountability Now]

You seem to be supporting the idea of spreading a positive humanist message, which is great. Since it is people that are supplying the morality and we're in agreement that the texts are not divinely created laws, why not just dump the religious baggage and preach for an increase in human well being?

I think the vast majority of humans are folllowers...not leaders. They need something to follow which in this case is a superior being that supercedes time and people itself. Let's face it....if we left it up to humans to lead humans then we would be back to the church scandals and corrupt governments because again if humans are involved then there will be errors. Having 'something' that is above and beyond them makes it easier and probably better.

I do support the idea of spreading a postive human message but ultimately I will admit that I think there is something greater than us out there. I just don't see the need to go hell bent on proving my version or interpretation of it is any better than anyone elses. Ultimately I view religion like language. We all make speak different languages but at the end of the day it means the same thing.

[Mighty AC]

I think the vast majority of humans are folllowers...not leaders. They need something to follow which in this case is a superior being that supercedes time and people itself. Let's face it....if we left it up to humans to lead humans then we would be back to the church scandals and corrupt governments because again if humans are involved then there will be errors. Having 'something' that is above and beyond them makes it easier and probably better.

We currently have church scandals and corrupt governments with religion in place. Often religion is used to excuse the immoral actions taken. Are you suggesting that by pretending gods created the holy books, scandalous activities are somehow diminished currently?

I do support the idea of spreading a postive human message but ultimately I will admit that I think there is something greater than us out there. I just don't see the need to go hell bent on proving my version or interpretation of it is any better than anyone elses. Ultimately I view religion like language. We all make speak different languages but at the end of the day it means the same thing.

Do you believe that something had a hand in creating the bible or any other currently used holy book?

[Shady]

We currently have church scandals and corrupt governments with religion in place. Often religion is used to excuse the immoral actions taken. Are you suggesting that by pretending gods created the holy books, scandalous activities are somehow diminished currently? Do you believe that something had a hand in creating the bible or any other currently used holy book?

Wow, you're on quite the anti-Christian roll lately. I guess one thread wasn't enough for you people. Gonna post any more fake stories to reinforce your prejudicial beliefs?

[Accountability Now]

We currently have church scandals and corrupt governments with religion in place. Often religion is used to excuse the immoral actions taken. Are you suggesting that by pretending gods created the holy books, scandalous activities are somehow diminished currently?

There are scandals in every part of human activity and churches are no exception. There are scandals in government, schools, police forces, banking, business...you name it! However, no one ever says lets get rid of the police when they hear of police abuse. Or lets get rid of schools when they hear of sexual abuse in the classroom. I am fully aware of the immoral actions that have occurred largely due to the power possessed individuals and that it was wrong however what about the vast number of priests, pastors, preachers, missionaries and other people associated to religous groups that have worked countless hours and donated time, money and possessions to helping others in the name of religion. I would wager that if you added one against the other....it wouldn't be close. Of course...there is no media story in someone doing good though...is there?

Do you believe that something had a hand in creating the bible or any other currently used holy book?

I do but not literally as in God touched down and burned the text onto stone or paper. The writters of the gospels were average men who transcribed what they saw. The fact that you have so many different people saying the same thing to me is what I find compelling. There was something truly inspiring happening and these people took note of it.

[dre]

So in today's modern day of knowledge and critical thinking then why do you explain that the overwheming majority of people still believe in a higher power in spite of our critical thinking?

Two points here...

First of all the vast majority of humans live in societies that are many decades behind us. The "modern age of critical thinking" is really only prevailant in a number of countries, and in those countries religion is disappearing rather quickly.

Humans just have a predisposition towards making up fantastic stories to explain things they dont understand, and then passing those stories on to the their children.

[Mighty AC]

However, no one ever says lets get rid of the police when they hear of police abuse. Or lets get rid of schools when they hear of sexual abuse in the classroom. I am fully aware of the immoral actions that have occurred largely due to the power possessed individuals and that it was wrong however what about the vast number of priests, pastors, preachers, missionaries and other people associated to religous groups that have worked countless hours and donated time, money and possessions to helping others in the name of religion. I would wager that if you added one against the other....it wouldn't be close. Of course...there is no media story in someone doing good though...is there?

Bad news and scandals certainly do attract more viewers. I wasn't suggesting that religion should be scrapped because of scandal, just asking about your comment that scandals would be worse without religion.

Let's assume that we had a reliable accounting system for good and that the charitable actions of religion outweighed the death, disease, discrimination, delusion, distress (on an alliteration roll here), fear, guilt and misogyny they cause. Is the false premise and the associated negative attributes really worth it? Couldn't we still perform charitable acts without the fairy tale? Even if you believe that fewer people would help others without the fear of a god, on balance we could still be further ahead by removing all the evils of religion.

Let's use Phil Kessel as an example of religion. Kessel is a defensive liability on the ice (religious evil) but he is a decent goal scorer as well (religious charity). Kessel has to score a tonne of goals to offset his weak defensive play. If the Leafs traded Kessel they don't have to make up for the full 45 or so goals Phil is good for...they only have to find those 45 minus the 35 - 40 he is directly responsible for.

In short, I don't believe charity is a good reason continue a delusional, fairy tale when it could and would still be performed sans religion.

[Mighty AC]

I do but not literally as in God touched down and burned the text onto stone or paper. The writters of the gospels were average men who transcribed what they saw. The fact that you have so many different people saying the same thing to me is what I find compelling. There was something truly inspiring happening and these people took note of it.

I will ask for help from those more educated on bible history, but I don't think that gospel writers actually observed the events they wrote about. From what I understand they simply wrote down the oral tales sometime after the supposed events. I also seem to recall that they weren't written at the same time and that some of the gospel authors would have read the first writings, that eventually became gospels, prior to writing their own version of the oral stories.

[Accountability Now]

Let's assume that we had a reliable accounting system for good and that the charitable actions of religion outweighed the death, disease, discrimination, delusion, distress (on an alliteration roll here), fear, guilt and misogyny they cause. Is the false premise and the associated negative attributes really worth it? Couldn't we still perform charitable acts without the fairy tale? Even if you believe that fewer people would help others without the fear of a god, on balance we could still be further ahead by removing all the evils of religion.

I think you're forgetting one thing. Most people are not doing these acts because they fear god (anymore...although i can see how that was the case before), rather they do it because they see what good can come from it. I don't go to church that often any more but I can ensure you that there is zero fear pushed on me. As for the ability to do these acts without the fairy tale....yes we can but you have to ask yourself....how did we get to the point where that would be possible? Our societies and moral compasses have been defined by religion and it is now engrained into our society. Look at our national anthem for example....God keep our land. I see what you are saying but its like asking if a kid that just went through school and is now working even needed to go to school. Couldn't we have just trained him on that specific task instead of spending years in school? You can't discount what has got us here as a society. Perhaps if religion hadn't existed we would be in the same spot....or even better but I truly don't believe that. Humans do good things when they realize they are connected at a higher level than just themselves. Religion for lack of a better term can provide that.

Let's use Phil Kessel as an example of religion. Kessel is a defensive liability on the ice (religious evil) but he is a decent goal scorer as well (religious charity). Kessel has to score a tonne of goals to offset his weak defensive play. If the Leafs traded Kessel they don't have to make up for the full 45 or so goals Phil is good for...they only have to find those 45 minus the 35 - 40 he is directly responsible for.

I like you're analogy as you are essentially looking at the plus/minus of the situation. However, I don't equate religion to Phil Kessell who according to your analogy is only plus 5. I would equate religion to a Jonathon Toews who will sometimes (but rarely) get scored on however will provide a huge benefit on the scoreboard, in the dressing room, in the community and as a leader. Now...try to find something to replace Toews.

In short, I don't believe charity is a good reason continue a delusional, fairy tale when it could and would still be performed sans religion.

Again...its the butterfly effect. Remove religion from the start and where would we be?

[Accountability Now]

I will ask for help from those more educated on bible history, but I don't think that gospel writers actually observed the events they wrote about. From what I understand they simply wrote down the oral tales sometime after the supposed events. I also seem to recall that they weren't written at the same time and that some of the gospel authors would have read the first writings, that eventually became gospels, prior to writing their own version of the oral stories.

I don't know that either. I'm certainly not a religious scholar.

If what you are saying is true then that makes the story even more conclusive for me. Imagine you have a car accident and you have four different people tell their version. How accurate will all the stories be compared to the truth? However, you have many different people telling you the same story, years after it happend and its almost entirely the same.

[Mighty AC]

I don't know that either. I'm certainly not a religious scholar.

If what you are saying is true then that makes the story even more conclusive for me. Imagine you have a car accident and you have four different people tell their version. How accurate will all the stories be compared to the truth? However, you have many different people telling you the same story, years after it happend and its almost entirely the same.

Well there are significant differences and some of the authors may have already read the first written accounts.

[Mighty AC]

Now...try to find something to replace Toews.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on pervasiveness of religious evil; but, I will agree to agree on the effectiveness of Toews on and off the ice.

Again...its the butterfly effect. Remove religion from the start and where would we be?

We can't and shouldn't remove religion from the start. It is a phenomenon born of ignorance. We couldn't explain lightning, seasons, the sun and stars, the diversity of life, etc. When teaching how lightning works we don't have to start with angry gods anymore, we can skip right to static electricity. The old crutch is no longer necessary. We have explained so much of the natural world that gods have almost completely been displaced from day to day life. However, we don't have to pretend the old beliefs didn't exist...we just know better now.

The same thing has happened from an ethical perspective. At one point it was probably beneficial to use the stick and carrot effect of religion to achieve more ethical and selfless behaviour. However, human secular ethics have long ago surpassed the teachings of the bible. Preachers now must ignore and make excuses for numerous passages just to make the document seem morally relevant today. It was humans that decided that slavery was wrong, not a god. It was humans that think misogyny is wrong too.

Like we do with stories of Santa, Norse mythology or old disproven scientific theories, it is time to view them as fiction and move on.