High Salaries for police and firefighters

[Scotty]

I am not one of those people who hates unions, nor one of those people who wants everyone to work for minimum wages. I think a fair wage for a position, along with decent benefits is what government should be paying its employees. But we have to remember there is a limited pie, and when people take too big a slice it costs the rest of us.

Police and firefighter salaries and benefits, at least in Ontario, are the most obvious examples of the waste of public resources. Both of them are now making about $100k a year plus very generous benefits and pensions. These positions do not require high compensation in order to attract capable applicants. Every time one becomes available 100s or 1000s of applicants show up. And that's more the nature of the jobs than the overly generous compensation. Neither job requires a great deal of education, and neither job requires a particularly rare skillset.

As in the cite below, firefighters rarely fight fires any more. Most of the time they're despatched to accidents, either on the road wherever. If you have a heart attack or fall down thes tairs, a big pumper full of firefighters will show up, in addition to the ambulance you called. This is designed to justify their existence since most of their time is spent sitting around the firehall, eating, reading, practicing, polishing and sleeping, The Fire Department will defend this by saying their fire trucks are often the first on scene so they can administer first aid. Yeah, because those truckloads of $100k firefighters have drained the funding away from ambulances and paramedics! Our cities are perrenially short of ambulances and paramedics because all the money is going to overpaid firefighters sitting around watching television!

The fact is that, based on education, required skill sets, and demand, neither police nor fire departments need to pay anything like what they currently pay for these positions. A 40% pay cut would seem in order, as well as a cut in benefits. But that's not going to happen in large measure because of arbitration rules which need to be changed.

Cities and towns can try to negotiate all they want with the unions, but in the end, the contracts usually go to arbitration, and the arbitrator does not take into consideration the ability to pay. He simply looks at other places and then awards a big pay hike.

The arbitration system needs to be changed. Unfortunately, the Ontario Liberals are so friendly with unions that they refuse to consider it. Cities and towns are going broke paying for a bunch of guys to sleep and watch TV, and for overpaid cops to write parking tickets.

BTW, firefighting is the 56th most dangerous professoin, while policing is the 127th. Taxi driving is much more dangerous, as is roofing and most other construction jobs, fishing, farming, lumber jobs, oil field jobs, etc. And as one of the commenters stated in the following cite, the clown who shot that idiot in the streetcar was making as much money than an army major or light colonel who might have hundreds or even thousands under his command.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-nation-of-100000-firefighters/article13647608/

[Smallc]

Fire departments - the paid part could be much smaller, augmented by a volunteer force that can be called upon. Sudbury does something like this, and it seems to work. I think it could work for larger cities as well.

[guyser]

Police and firefighter salaries and benefits, at least in Ontario, are the most obvious examples of the waste of public resources. Both of them are now making about $100k a year plus very generous benefits and pensions.

Starting salary for a rookie cop, 4th Class Constable $54,400. then to 1st class $86G

Starting salary for a rookie fireman 1st year $51,900- then to $77700 for 1st class

So much for that $100G huh?

The Fire Department will defend this by saying their fire trucks are often the first on scene so they can administer first aid. Yeah, because those truckloads of $100k firefighters have drained the funding away from ambulances and paramedics! Our cities are perrenially short of ambulances and paramedics because all the money is going to overpaid firefighters sitting around watching television!

So do they sit around or do they go out on calls?

Theres a reason they are called to MVA's , Paramedics dont have JAWS, cant open a door, need to have someone to stablize the scene, maybe the car is on fire?

Now if you want to get into the specifics of what the benefits are, you could be on the right track, you could also look at the structure of both and see efficiencies realized.

Towns do need to step and say enough,and both to some degree will hold you hostage but those are the debates that need to happen.

You do realize that one saving from the municipal angle will realize and increase in your insurance?

[Shady]

I think that they should be well paid. The biggest problem is with their pensions. They need to contribute more to them, and not have the tax payer pick up so much of the tab.

[GostHacked]

Police and firefighter salaries and benefits, at least in Ontario, are the most obvious examples of the waste of public resources. Both of them are now making about $100k a year plus very generous benefits and pensions. These positions do not require high compensation in order to attract capable applicants. Every time one becomes available 100s or 1000s of applicants show up. And that's more the nature of the jobs than the overly generous compensation. Neither job requires a great deal of education, and neither job requires a particularly rare skillset.

Actually you do need a specific skill set to be either a cop or a firefighter.

1 - you need to be in shape

2 - you need to have a brain with quick thinking and quick evaluation

Many many other things to consider for these roles.

People will bitch about the cost of some emergency services until they are caught up in a situation demanding the emergency services. I am sure the person saving your ass will appreciate you telling them they are paid too much.

As in the cite below, firefighters rarely fight fires any more. Most of the time they're despatched to accidents, either on the road wherever. If you have a heart attack or fall down thes tairs, a big pumper full of firefighters will show up, in addition to the ambulance you called. This is designed to justify their existence since most of their time is spent sitting around the firehall, eating, reading, practicing, polishing and sleeping, The Fire Department will defend this by saying their fire trucks are often the first on scene so they can administer first aid. Yeah, because those truckloads of $100k firefighters have drained the funding away from ambulances and paramedics! Our cities are perrenially short of ambulances and paramedics because all the money is going to overpaid firefighters sitting around watching television!

Ignorance, ingnorance ignorance.

Been stated, the firetruck has equipment the paramedics do not have. The best solution I can figure out is to have a paramedic ambulamce AT the firestation to go out when the trucks do. Integrate the two services for better service. Most firefighters are on the scene first, and since most are qualified as paramedics, they can administer much needed first aid right on the spot. In car accidents, the jaws of life as mentioned. Also when on a crash site, the firetruck will act as a barrier to protect the emergency crews from traffic, creating a safe zone for them to work in.

The firefighters I know don't sit around during downtime. Training, checking equipment, ect ect. Plenty of much needed work to be done when the downtime happens.

One of my best friends is a firefighter at the Ottawa airport. I am sure he will gladly let you die in a plane accident if you prefer to wait for paramedics to arrive.

The fact is that, based on education, required skill sets, and demand, neither police nor fire departments need to pay anything like what they currently pay for these positions.

I'll pull out the Shady line of absolute nonesense. When lives are on the line you want that particular skill set that will save your ass. If you are not in good shape, you risk you and your fellow firefigheters lives and the lives you are trying to save.

A 40% pay cut would seem in order, as well as a cut in benefits.

Police and firefighters put their lives on the line. Pay them accordingly.

Sure military gets paid less, and that is wrong as well. They do see more hazard but they are treated like crap and paid even less based on their job and the risks involved.

The reason firefighting is not as risky in the past is .. procedures, process, protocol and extensive training in assessing situations. Firefighting equipment has come a long way as well. Technology has made it safer, but still is a high risk job.

Anyone willing to throw themselves into a burning building to save others should be paid accordingly.

[cybercoma]

Anyone willing to throw themselves into a burning building to save others should be paid accordingly.

While I completely agree with you, consider that the average person has a misconception about the inherent dangers of particular jobs. Yes, firefighting is risky, but there are jobs that the average person doesn't think is risky but causes far more fatalities per worker than you can imagine. Fishers, loggers, and farmers have some of the highest fatalities per worker of any profession, but we don't see those people as "honourably" as we see firefighters and cops. This may be because they're not directly saving lives in the process of their work, but I'm not sure. Edited August 8, 2013 by cybercoma

[GostHacked]

While I completely agree with you, consider that the average person has a misconception about the inherent dangers of particular jobs. Yes, firefighting is risky, but there are jobs that the average person doesn't think is risky but causes far more fatalities per worker than you can imagine. Fishers, loggers, and farmers have some of the highest fatalities per worker of any profession, but we don't see those people as "honourably" as we see firefighters and cops. This may be because they're not directly saving lives in the process of their work, but I'm not sure.

Well I don't see police as being honourable in many cases, but that does not mean I want to drive down their wage, although there probably is a lot of wasted money on the police departments.

But unless the fishermen, loggers and farmers work for the state, then you may have a comparison, but not sure how much of a comparison here with public services and private enterprise.

[cybercoma]

I get that they're different sectors, but I don't see why the public service deserves any more or less than private workers. The same principles are at work.

[GostHacked]

I get that they're different sectors, but I don't see why the public service deserves any more or less than private workers. The same principles are at work.

There are a lot of jobs in the public sector (gorvernment) that make outrageous salaries/benefits. Better off to cut those salaries before emergency services salaries are cut.

Cutting senators expenses would be a start. Some of them have expense budgest equall to a salaried firefighter. There are plenty of places to cut, the emergency services should be the last thing to cut.

[Scotty]

I think that they should be well paid. The biggest problem is with their pensions. They need to contribute more to them, and not have the tax payer pick up so much of the tab.

I don't say they shouldn't be paid well but $100k plus first class benefits for blue collar jobs with no education is ridiculous.

[guyser]

I don't say they shouldn't be paid well but $100k plus first class benefits for blue collar jobs with no education is ridiculous.

It sure is, but who the hell you talking about? Certainly not the police nor firefighters.

Oh and for the record this....

I am not one of those people who hates unions, nor one of those people who wants everyone to work for minimum wages.

...is bogus. Yes you do hate them, by your very choice of words, condescending and belittling.

Somebody's jealous.....

Fire Dept and Police Services turned you away huh? Probably best for all.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Guyser2

[Scotty]

Actually you do need a specific skill set to be either a cop or a firefighter.

1 - you need to be in shape

2 - you need to have a brain with quick thinking and quick evaluation

You really think those two are that hard to find?

Many many other things to consider for these roles.

We've never had difficulty finding enough applicants for either role. Quite to the contrary.

People will bitch about the cost of some emergency services until they are caught up in a situation demanding the emergency services. I am sure the person saving your ass will appreciate you telling them they are paid too much.

So what is your answer? They should get anything they want? How about a million a year? Plus we'll supply them with chauffeurs for their limos? Would that be acceptable?

Been stated, the firetruck has equipment the paramedics do not have.

For rescuing people. That is a tiny number of responses. Most medical situations do not require rescue.

The best solution I can figure out is to have a paramedic ambulamce AT the firestation to go out when the trucks do. Integrate the two services for better service. Most firefighters are on the scene first, and since most are qualified as paramedics, they can administer much needed first aid right on the spot.

The whole point is the trucks do not need to go out for most medical situations. The only excuse most of the time now is that they get their faster, and that's because of the lack of paramedics and ambulances, which can, in turn, be attributed to the money being spent on so many firefighters. I don't know what percentage of firefighters are paramedics. I know that, like policing, there are so many thousands of applicants that many take all kinds of added courses in hopes of coming out on top in hiring. But that just points to how much desire there is for these jobs, and in turn, that we needn't be paying them so much.

The firefighters I know don't sit around during downtime. Training, checking equipment, ect ect. Plenty of much needed work to be done when the downtime happens.

And plenty of make work. My uncle was a firefighter. The only reason they have to train so much is because they don't get to actually DO the work enough.

Sure military gets paid less, and that is wrong as well. They do see more hazard but they are treated like crap and paid even less based on their job and the risks involved.

You are getting the wrong message here. The military is not paid like crap. The fact a cop makes as much as a colonel with a thousand men under him is more an indication of how much the latter is overpaid. Yes, other government people are overpaid as well, at different levels. But even in the public service, my brother in law, who makes $100k, has a masters and a dozen program officer employees reporting to him and controls a budget of a couple of million dollars. And I just can't wrap my head around the fact that a firefighter who spends most of his time polishing chrome and climbing up and down ropes should be paid as much as him.

Anyone willing to throw themselves into a burning building to save others should be paid accordingly.

The thing is, 'throwing themselves into a burning building' is becoming, for firefighters, what getting into a gunfight is for cops, something most never experience in their entire careers.

According to Nightline it costs $3,500 every time a fire truck pulls out of a fire station in Washington, DC (25 calls in a 24 hour shift is not uncommon so this adds up quickly). Moreover, most of the time the call is not for a fire but for a minor medical problem. In many cities, both fire trucks and ambulances respond to the same calls

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html

[Scotty]

There are a lot of jobs in the public sector (gorvernment) that make outrageous salaries/benefits. Better off to cut those salaries before emergency services salaries are cut.

Cutting senators expenses would be a start. Some of them have expense budgest equall to a salaried firefighter. There are plenty of places to cut, the emergency services should be the last thing to cut.

I don't necessarily disagree, except there aren't that many senators. Now teachers, well, that's another one which is highly compensated, even though we have far more teachers than we need, and more and more applicants all the time.

[The_Squid]

I don't say they shouldn't be paid well but $100k plus first class benefits for blue collar jobs with no education is ridiculous.

It has already been shown in a previous post that your salary figures aren't based in reality.

[Sandy MacNab]

Fire departments - the paid part could be much smaller, augmented by a volunteer force that can be called upon. Sudbury does something like this, and it seems to work. I think it could work for larger cities as well.

Sounds like a great idea! Good for Sudbury! Obviously they have people with imagination.

[Moonlight Graham]

While I completely agree with you, consider that the average person has a misconception about the inherent dangers of particular jobs. Yes, firefighting is risky, but there are jobs that the average person doesn't think is risky but causes far more fatalities per worker than you can imagine. Fishers, loggers, and farmers have some of the highest fatalities per worker of any profession, but we don't see those people as "honourably" as we see firefighters and cops. This may be because they're not directly saving lives in the process of their work, but I'm not sure.

No you're right. A farmer or a carpenter isn't seen as much of hero for getting their hand stuck in a machine.

[Wilber]

Starting salary for a rookie cop, 4th Class Constable $54,400. then to 1st class $86G

Starting salary for a rookie fireman 1st year $51,900- then to $77700 for 1st class

So much for that $100G huh?

Many do get into the six figure range but work a crap load of overtime to do it. A detail conveniently not mentioned when these figures are published. Most police forces are understaffed and rely on overtime to make up the difference. Pension benefits in our department at least are calculated on base salary for their best five years, not including overtime.

[guyser]

Many do get into the six figure range but work a crap load of overtime to do it. A detail conveniently not mentioned when these figures are published. Most police forces are understaffed and rely on overtime to make up the difference. Pension benefits in our department at least are calculated on base salary for their best five years, not including overtime.

I wondered when you would chime in Wilber.

Yup, tons of overtime and paid duty (which I dont agree with here in TO-Silliest dumbass reasons too)

No of course the OP doesnt want to mention the OT they need to do to make the ridiculous numbers he puts up. Why bother? It only shoots down his points.

The fact that the costs are rising and raises seem to come too easily is a point that can be discussed , but the OP has a grudge to bear and is only keen on belittling and condescending to fireman and cops. ( hell I dont have much good to say about cops, but the pay isnt part of my equation--the benefits on the other hand)

[Scotty]

Many do get into the six figure range but work a crap load of overtime to do it. A detail conveniently not mentioned when these figures are published. Most police forces are understaffed and rely on overtime to make up the difference. Pension benefits in our department at least are calculated on base salary for their best five years, not including overtime.

!st class constable for Toronto makes over $86k, which will rise to $90k by 2014. It doesn't take a whole ton of overtime to reach $100k. The point that as these guaranteed raises continue, the base salary itself will soon reach $100k

[Scotty]

It has already been shown in a previous post that your salary figures aren't based in reality.

I see no such post.

[Signals.Cpl]

I don't say they shouldn't be paid well but $100k plus first class benefits for blue collar jobs with no education is ridiculous.

Have you wondered why some might possibly reach 100k a year or more? Is it because police and firefighters are overpaid or is it just that they are short staffed? If you are short on trained manpower then the trained people you do have will take on more and more duties at which point they will be reimbursed for their overtime work.

As for the uneducated part? Really? So you think that fire fighters and police officers are uneducated? Maybe some don't have College or University education but they most definitely are educated from the time they set foot at work for the first time up until their last day. They take courses and training to improve their skill set unless of course you think firefighter and police course within and outside their respective departments are not as relevant as a course focusing on the writing of say Dante?

[dre]

I think a 40 - 60K per year range would be fair for these workers based on what I see in the rest of the economy. The level of education required is kind of "medium", as is the risk.

[Bonam]

There's a big difference between the salary someone gets, and the amount of money they cost their employer. If anyone here has ever been anywhere near accounting or running a business, you'd know overheads (health plans, employer-paid taxes, pension contributions, etc) run 30-50% over salary. Someone nominally making an $86k salary is likely costing the city/province around $120k+.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Bonam

[Michael Hardner]

As with all of our public services, there is no competition in the conventional sense to drive efficiency. The size of the workforce is determined by some bureaucratic means, and the reasons aren't transparent. Individual wage hikes depend on the public's general emotional response to these people, which is favourable.

As with our other public services, we need to create a new subset of the public to look at the facts here. It's difficult, though, as there is much secrecy around budgets and procedures.

[Scotty]

Have you wondered why some might possibly reach 100k a year or more? Is it because police and firefighters are overpaid or is it just that they are short staffed?

There is absolutely no shortage of people who want to be police and firefighter, nor has there ever been. A lot of the reasons for the overtime, I'm given to understand are regulations driven by union negotiations. As in the cite I posted in the OP where an arbitrator awarded overtime to firefighters who would have earned it (theoretically) if the city hadn't taken an uneeded truck out of service. One of the main overtime causes for police is court testimony. Whether it's for traffic tickets or murders, police generally testify on their own time. The excuse police departments make is that scheduling appearances during work time takes a cop off the road. But it's the same money, and appearing on their own time earns them time and a half, with a minimum 4 hour payment even if they're there for 15 minutes. It makes no sense at all.

As for the uneducated part? Really? So you think that fire fighters and police officers are uneducated? Maybe some don't have College or University education but they most definitely are educated from the time they set foot at work for the first time up until their last day.

The point I'm making is that the requirement of the jobs is high school diploma. Nothing more. Sure, those who want to be cops and firefighters go out of their way to get all kinds of added education because the competition to get accepted is FEROCIOUS! But all that added edcuation is needed to fight off other applicants, not to do the work. Additional courses or skills acquired on the job are no different than in any other profession where people are constantly upgrading their knowledge, mostly in hopes of promotion.