TTC Police Shooting

[Guest American Woman]

You couldn't do that anyway because some might have gone through him. I'm unaware of Toronto police use Hollow points. If the due that would also indicate 9 shots was overkill.

Perhaps you should tell Gosthacked that, as it's his claim. From what I've read, as I've said, there has been no word about any stray bullets. Edited August 22, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

So then tazing him was completely redundant and had no baring on Forcillo's decision to start shooting earlier.

I have absolutely no idea why the sergeant used his taser gun after Yatim had already been shot, so I have no idea if it was redundant or not. I have not read one word about his decision to taze Yatim; not one word from the sergeant or the police department. Have you?

I don't know why the other officer hasn't been charged, perhaps because he wasn't the one that killed Yatim.

Certainly there's a possibility that being tazed on top of being shot multiple times could have reduced Yatim's chances of survival. Would there be any way of knowing that it did not? Was the possibility even considered?

At any rate, that a sergeant felt the need to taze Yatim even after all the shots were fired should be a factor in Forcillo's favor, I would think.

[Wilber]

Who said anything about a "conspiracy?" It could simply be inaccurate information; media sources jumping the gun. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. I personally see nothing in the articles to give me the confidence to believe without a doubt that the claim is definitely accurate.

My thought as well. As competition within media to be first with a story becomes more in intense, they are increasingly getting things wrong. Properly varifying sources is no longer the priority it once was.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Wilber

[Black Dog]

I have absolutely no idea why the sergeant used his taser gun after Yatim had already been shot, so I have no idea if it was redundant or not. I have not read one word about his decision to taze Yatim; not one word from the sergeant or the police department. Have you?

From an article in the National Post on the charges:

The officer who used the taser – a controversial police tool catapulted into the headlines in 2007, when Robert Dziekanski died after being tasered repeatedly at the Vancouver airport – was not investigated by the SIU because it determined only one officer contributed to the death of Mr. Yatim, who died in hospital. Constable Forcillo called out for a taser before opening fire, according to a source.

Certainly there's a possibility that being tazed on top of being shot multiple times could have reduced Yatim's chances of survival. Would there be any way of knowing that it did not? Was the possibility even considered?

At any rate, that a sergeant felt the need to taze Yatim even after all the shots were fired should be a factor in Forcillo's favor, I would think.

Or perhaps it's standard procedure?

My theory (which represents my opinion and mine alone)? Cop A riddled Yatim with bullets, but the knife was still in his hand so Cop B gave him a little extra juice just in case he had any fight left.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Black Dog

[Boges]

I have absolutely no idea why the sergeant used his taser gun after Yatim had already been shot, so I have no idea if it was redundant or not. I have not read one word about his decision to taze Yatim; not one word from the sergeant or the police department. Have you?Certainly there's a possibility that being tazed on top of being shot multiple times could have reduced Yatim's chances of survival. Would there be any way of knowing that it did not? Was the possibility even considered?At any rate, that a sergeant felt the need to taze Yatim even after all the shots were fired should be a factor in Forcillo's favor, I would think.

If it can be determined that he still posed a threat. But if so, they why did Forcillo stop shooting? These guns have 15 rounds, so he still had 6 rounds in the magazine.

The TTC Security footage should provide conclusive evidence of this. We aren't privy that and probably won't be until after the trial.

The tazing is a red herring. If anything is shows some sort of conspiracy to show that they did whatever possible to stop Yatim. Of course that can't be proven, but it's a theory.

[Guest American Woman]

My thought as well. As competition within media to be first with a story becomes more in intense, they are increasingly getting things wrong. Properly varifying sources is no longer the priority it once was.

I totally agree. I've too often seen inaccurate information reported in the rush to get new information out.

[GostHacked]

I totally agree. I've too often seen inaccurate information reported in the rush to get new information out.

Boston Bombings was a good example of that. As with the Colorado theater shootings, and Sandy Hook.

[Boges]

Boston Bombings was a good example of that. As with the Colorado theater shootings, and Sandy Hook.

But that's with breaking news. This is a newspaper columnist reporting what he was told by a source almost a month after the initial incident.

[Guest American Woman]

From an article in the National Post on the charges:

Thank you for that information, but I had already read that - and it doesn't tell if the possibility that the taser gun contributed to Yatim's death was considered. The information you quoted came out so quickly that I'm left with doubts.

Or perhaps it's standard procedure?

I've read nothing to suggest that it is. If that's the case, I have to wonder why hasn't that been reported. Even Yatim's family was questioning the use of the taser after he had been shot.

My theory (which represents my opinion and mine alone)? Cop A riddled Yatim with bullets, but the knife was still in his hand so Cop B gave him a little extra juice just in case he had any fight left.

So cop B still considered Yatim to be a threat in that scenario. Even after he was shot multiple times. So is it inconceivable that Forcilla reasonably perceived him to be a threat before he was shot?

Edited August 22, 2013 by American Woman

[g_bambino]

I don't know why the other officer hasn't been charged, perhaps because he wasn't the one that killed Yatim.

I'm sure I read that Yatim died of multiple gunshot wounds. Where the media got that information from, I don't know.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm sure I read that Yatim died of multiple gunshot wounds. Where the media got that information from, I don't know.

I've read that too, but that information was put out almost immediately, so it makes me wonder if that was the assumption. I have seen nothing to indicate that any other possibility was even considered, much less investigated.

[Boges]

We're talking semantics. If there was even a remote possibility the tazing killed Yatim then Forcillo wouldn't have been charged with murder.

[GostHacked]

I'm sure I read that Yatim died of multiple gunshot wounds. Where the media got that information from, I don't know.

Too bad there is no video showing what happened.

[Guest American Woman]

Regarding the number of shots fired - here's an incident where a perp took 22 hits and the police officer took four hits himself, without it having any serious affect on his performing his duty. It's interesting to see what the perp, Palmer, was still capable of doing after being shot so many times. From all that I've read, it can be a fatal mistake for a cop to assume that one or two shots have incapacitated the perp.

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired.

Edited August 22, 2013 by American Woman

[g_bambino]

Too bad there is no video showing what happened.

I think there would be. We just haven't been able to see it ourselves.

[Guest American Woman]

We're talking semantics. If there was even a remote possibility the tazing killed Yatim then Forcillo wouldn't have been charged with murder.

We're hardly talking semantics. People have been killed by taser guns alone, so of course there was a "remote possiblity." So, was the possibility that being tazed in any way contributed to Yatim's death considered? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. Have you?

[Boges]

We're hardly talking semantics. People have been killed by taser guns alone, so of course there was a "remote possiblity." So, was the possibility that being tazed in any way contributed to Yatim's death considered? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. Have you?

No I haven't. That's why I consider it irrelevant.

It's sort of a like a Crime Drama I once watching (I think a Law and Order) where the defense was trying to get a charged dropped to attempted murder because the victim died later in the hospital and they wanted to blame the doctors for the death.

[Black Dog]

Thank you for that information, but I had already read that - and it doesn't tell if the possibility that the taser gun contributed to Yatim's death was considered.

How would they decide that the taser did not contribute to his death if they didn't consider the possibility it may have?

So cop B still considered Yatim to be a threat in that scenario. Even after he was shot multiple times. So is it inconceivable that Forcilla reasonably perceived him to be a threat before he was shot?

That's the question. I think I and others have detailed why we think that might not have been a reasonable assessment.

[Guest American Woman]

How would they decide that the taser did not contribute to his death if they didn't consider the possibility it may have?

Did they decide that the taser didn't contribute to his death? I haven't read that anywhere. Do you have a source?

That's the question. I think I and others have detailed why we think that might not have been a reasonable assessment.

Yet, even after he was shot, he was tazed - by an officer who apparently thought he was still a threat; an officer who was at the scene, not simply watching a YouTube video. So in spite of what you and others have detailed, I would like to know why the officer tazed him, because if it was reasonable for him to perceive that Yatim was still a threat after being shot, it seems it would be pretty difficult to prove that it was unreasonable for Forcillo to perceive him as a threat before he was shot.

[Black Dog]

Did they decide that the taser didn't contribute to his death? I haven't read that anywhere. Do you have a source?

The quote I provided said they didn't charge the taser cop because they determined only one officer contributed to Yatim's death. That indicates they considered the possibility the taser was a factor and dismissed it.

Yet, even after he was shot, he was tazed - by an officer who apparently thought he was still a threat; an officer who was at the scene, not simply watching a YouTube video. So in spite of what you and others have detailed, I would like to know why the officer tazed him, because if it was reasonable for him to perceive that Yatim was still a threat after being shot, it seems it would be pretty difficult to prove that it was unreasonable for Forcillo to perceive him as a threat before he was shot.

I'd like to know why he was tazed too. That will hopefully come out in the investigation (though not the criminal trial).

As for the rest, I have a real problem with letting the people pulling the triggers get the final say on what's reasonable. Taken to a not so distant extreme, anyone holding anything that could be used as a weapon (paring knife, stapler, medium sized rock) could be deemed a threat and subject to lethal force. They are supposed to be able to tell the difference.

[Rue]

Of course this was from confidential sources so if you believe Forcillo was in the right, this new revelation won't change your mind.

But if it is true that he landed 8/9 rounds, I don't see how anyone can convince anyone that he was in the right.

You are missing the point. Its a simple one. He could very well have hit him 8 or 9 times but may not have known that. That is the point. When you shoot someone with clothes on the blood does not allows spurt out or mark the place of entry.

Also they are taught to keep firing and not assume anything until the person is down and not moving. That said they have to investigate why an interval in the shooting and whether after the initial 3 the deceased was sufficiently incapacitated to not justify the other 6 shots. That's the big question some of you have already decided.

Going back to the taser that has to raise a training issue for several reasons-the lateness in it getting to the scene and as many ask if this guy is lying on the ground not moving why would you taser him?

Even if it can be argued the officer was in what they call the red zone and was in a state of automated reflex response it does not explain the taser and it may not explain the interval/gap between the two volleys of shots.

Evidence as to the state of mind of the officer, the training he was given and what the officer would have seen after the deceased went down would all be crucial.

I think its probable they administered the taser to a dead man. I find it hard to believe IF he had 9 bullets in him with his body size, he'd be alive enough to need to taser. At best he would be paralyzed or convulsing from bullet trauma. But the coroner's report can comment on that kind of phenomena.

It would also be interesting to note if this individual was high on a drug or had a brain tumour. That can help shed some light.

Man some of you are chomping at the bit to throw this cop under the bus or in this case street car.

He's the proverbial Jew who killed Christ the way this passion play is being played out. Enough already. Y'all sound like

extras in a Mel Gibson movie.

[Guest American Woman]

The quote I provided said they didn't charge the taser cop because they determined only one officer contributed to Yatim's death. That indicates they considered the possibility the taser was a factor and dismissed it.

Not really, as it doesn't say how it was determined; furthermore, from what I can see without a link, it's a quote from the NP, not the police department. I also don't know the date of that quote; was an autopsy even performed at that point? At any rate, determining that the gun shots killed him and determining that the taser had nothing to do with it are two different things. One can determine the former without ever considering the latter. I'd like to see some evidence, some discussion, on how it was determined that only one officer was responsible for his death. I'd like to know how it's even possible to determine that when tasers alone have killed.

I'd like to know why he was tazed too. That will hopefully come out in the investigation (though not the criminal trial).

Hopefully it will come out, as that's a big question.

As for the rest, I have a real problem with letting the people pulling the triggers get the final say on what's reasonable.

That's what's going to be determined in the trial, but again, it doesn't have to be proven that there was a threat, just that it was reasonable for Forcillo to believe there was a threat. We weren't there, so his take on it, whether or not it was reasonable for him to perceive Yatim as a threat, is ultimately what it comes down to.

Taken to a not so distant extreme, anyone holding anything that could be used as a weapon (paring knife, stapler, medium sized rock) could be deemed a threat and subject to lethal force. They are supposed to be able to tell the difference.

Who's to say at this point that he didn't know the difference? - but anyone holding such a "weapon" should drop it when repeatedly told to do so by the police - then the police won't have to make a judgement call as to whether or not said person is a threat.

[g_bambino]

I have a real problem with letting the people pulling the triggers get the final say on what's reasonable.

In a highly volatile situation, wherein things could become even more dangerous very quickly, who else is going to get to make the call?

[ed.: sp]

Edited August 22, 2013 by g_bambino

[Black Dog]

Not really, as it doesn't say how it was determined; furthermore, from what I can see without a link, it's a quote from the NP, not the police department.

the police wouldn't comment on this. It was from the SIU.

I also don't know the date of that quote; was an autopsy even performed at that point?

After charges were laid, so earlier this week.

At any rate, determining that the gun shots killed him and determining that the taser had nothing to do with it are two different things. One can determine the former without ever considering the latter.

Again, look at the wording.

I'd like to see some evidence, some discussion, on how it was determined that only one officer was responsible for his death. I'd like to know how it's even possible to determine that when tasers alone have killed. Hopefully it will come out, as that's a big question.

It would probably be a straightforward thing for a medical examiner to determine.

That's what's going to be determined in the trial, but again, it doesn't have to be proven that there was a threat, just that it was reasonable for Forcillo to believe there was a threat. We weren't there, so his take on it, whether or not it was reasonable for him to perceive Yatim as a threat, is ultimately what it comes down to.

If that were so, we'd just have to take him at his word.

Who's to say at this point that he didn't know the difference? - but anyone holding such a "weapon" should drop it when repeatedly told to do so by the police - then the police won't have to make a judgement call as to whether or not said person is a threat.

Why are we expecting the guy holding the knife and yelling to be the rational one in this scenario?

[Black Dog]

In a highly volatile situation, wherein things could become even more dangerous very quickly, who else is going to get to make the call?

[ed.: sp]

Point is, once the call is made, we can't simply defer to their judgement in the moment. Which is why this cop is facing charges. They have to get it right.