TTC Police Shooting

[Black Dog]

That's not relevant. Neither you nor I have any clue what position Yatim was in or what he was doing once he was down and out of sight from those who uploaded their recordings of the incident onto YouTube.

Actually not true. From the CCTV footage that was released, Yatim is shot and falls back and onto his right side (the side on which he was holding the knife).

Edited August 26, 2013 by Black Dog

[GostHacked]

The people now scapegoating this officer use the very same technique racists do with people they believe all look the same-only now instead of skin colour its the uniform they wear. Either way you listen to Dre et all, and you may as well replace that word cop with black or Jew or choose the minority you want...the only thing missing is a comment as to the officer's big nose or big lips to complete the scapegoating.

People are not scapegoating this officer. He was the one who pulled the trigger and this resulted in a kid dead. Your projection of people scapegoating the cop like he was black or a jew is quite freakin hilarious. Why would this even be trotted out if not racist type baiting? After 50 pages this is the first time anyone has mentioned this.

There was obvious overreactions by this one officer, and if not for video, we would not even see the charge that we do see. So public pressure was put on the police to actually do something instead of the culture of covering for your boys in blue.

You'd have more outrage if there was no charge on this cop. As a cop he is accountable for actions, plain and simple.

But if this is a matter of training, then the whole police department needs an enema.

[g_bambino]

Wow. They'd be stacking bodies like cordwood on street corners if you had your way.

What way is it now, pray tell?

From the CCTV footage that was released...

Where is this available to the public?

[ed.: +]

Edited August 26, 2013 by g_bambino

[Black Dog]

What way is it now, pray tell?

The one where "moving towards" someone is an offense punishable by death. Because currently, police guidelines don't cover "he's coming right for us" under use of lethal force.

Where is this available to the public?

It's been posted in this thread. Here it is again.

[Argus]

And I'm saying that since a subject who is down can still be a threat, enough of a threat to drive a car in the instance I cited, we can't make that judgement call without all of the facts.

You're leaving aside the fact that the guy has to get up before he can 'drive a car'. The guy was flat on the floor when shot six times.

[Argus]

That's not relevant. Neither you nor I have any clue what position Yatim was in or what he was doing once he was down and out of sight from those who uploaded their recordings of the incident onto YouTube.

Not relevant? He was flat on his face. We could see that on the camera. How is that not relevant?

[Argus]

Because the knife was bonded to Yatim's hand? He couldn't've thrown it?

You've been watching too many movies...

[GostHacked]

The one where "moving towards" someone is an offense punishable by death. Because currently, police guidelines don't cover "he's coming right for us" under use of lethal force.

It's been posted in this thread. Here it is again.

That video is even more damning than the stuff from the bystanders. I sill want to see from inside the car, as most public transportation now have surveillance cameras, you know to keep the public safe.

[Argus]

The people now scapegoating this officer use the very same technique racists do with people they believe all look the same-only now instead of skin colour its the uniform they wear. Either way you listen to Dre et all, and you may as well replace that word cop with black or Jew or choose the minority you want...the only thing missing is a comment as to the officer's big nose or big lips to complete the scapegoating.

If by 'scapegoating' you mean 'holding someone to account for their own actions' then you have a dramatically different view of the term than most of us here.

And I don't see an issue with complaining about poor police behavior. It happens, unfortunately all too often, and society has yet to come up with appropriate renedies to police misconduct given the investigators tend to be police or ex-police themselves, and given the nature of sympathy insiders generally get from each other.

The situation here is, like that with Robert Dziekanski, is that the public can actually see what happened, where they usually have to simply rely on the police reports. And the public has little difficulty in watching this in deciding the behaviour of the constable was unacceptable. As for che Chief, well, I've never liked him, but sometimes you have to bow to the inevitable.

[g_bambino]

The one where "moving towards" someone is an offense punishable by death...

I meant what is the current practice--"way"--here, not in Somalia.

It's been posted in this thread. Here it is again.

Oh, that. I thought you were referring to the footage recorded by the CCTV cameras on the streetcar. That video you link to shows a bit more than video recorded by witnesses, but still only gives part of the picture. What position Yatim's upper body is in or what he's doing with his hands is still concealed behind that lamp post/streetcar bulkhead. Regard how what you said about Yatim's position after being shot (on his right side) differs from what Argus said about the same thing (on his face); all I see after the first round of shots is his legs, still moving. It's likely only what the TTC's CCTV cameras saw will show us that (unless there's still some as of yet unrelesed witness-taken video out there or something recorded by another security camera),

[ed.: +]

Edited August 26, 2013 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

You've been watching too many movies...

I haven't seen any movies for quite some time, sadly.

[GostHacked]

If by 'scapegoating' you mean 'holding someone to account for their own actions' then you have a dramatically different view of the term than most of us here.

I think that is why the term 'Stockholm Syndrome' was brought up. We have something quite obvious on video and yet we hear scapegoating something other than the cop and his actions resulting in a dead person. What many of us see there is quite clear as to what happened.

And I don't see an issue with complaining about poor police behavior. It happens, unfortunately all too often, and society has yet to come up with appropriate renedies to police misconduct given the investigators tend to be police or ex-police themselves, and given the nature of sympathy insiders generally get from each other.

So the CCTV video shows something that I thought was correct. At the time of the shooting only the one cop had his weapon drawn. Only a short moment after Yatim hit the floor did you see other cops draw their weapon.

[Black Dog]

I meant what is the current practice--"way"--here, not in Somalia.

As has already been stated, lethal force is authorized when a subject is undertaking actions likely to cause bodily harm. In some circumstances, that can cover "moving towards" someone. But not all, which is why your idea that they should have free reign to waste anyone who takes a step in the wrong direction is a recipe for disaster.

[g_bambino]

In some circumstances, that can cover "moving towards" someone. But not all, which is why your idea that they should have free reign to waste anyone who takes a step in the wrong direction is a recipe for disaster.

Except, that's not what I said.

[Black Dog]

Except, that's not what I said.

Once the irrational person holding a weapon and refusing to drop the weapon moves towards the police, yes (it's ok to shoot them)

What is that, then?

[g_bambino]

What is that, then?

Not "they [should] have free reign to waste anyone who takes a step in the wrong direction..." Note all the extra circumstantial detail in what I said, plus the absence of "waste" or "death".

[ed.: +]

Edited August 26, 2013 by g_bambino

[Black Dog]

Not "they [should] have free reign to waste anyone who takes a step in the wrong direction..." Note all the extra circumstantial detail in what I said, plus the absence of "waste" or "death".

[ed.: +]

The circumstantial detail was implicit (who else would we be talking about?) and okaying cops to shoot people in those circumstances would have a high probability of resulting in that person's death.

The point is, police very frequently deal with situations where armed and irrational people refuse to obey commands and even move towards them, yet shootings are comparatively rare. That suggests not only that the actual threat posed by an armed person taking a step towards a cop varies and that alternative methods of dealing with such situations are available.

[bleeding heart]

Because the knife was bonded to Yatim's hand? He couldn't've thrown it?

???

Are you serious?

[dre]

Some have suggested expanding the number of units where a psychiatric nurse or social worker drives around with a specially trained police officer to respond to mentally ill people calls-that sounds nice, but its very expensive, would require a lot of manpower for it to be available 24 hours a day, and with any specialized unite such as that one or the canine unit, there is a limit to availability and invariably a time lag responding which might make calling one of these units a moot point.

Theres no need... the police are supposed to be trained in non lethal force, and things like tasers and pepper spray have saved thousands of lives. What happened here is a criminal gunned down another man, and hes now been charged. Its nothing indicitive of the way police are trained or the quality of our cops or anything like that. Just one bad apple out of almost 20 cops on the scene.

What needed to happen and will still need to happen is a review of the training police receive when dealing with the mentally ill in stand off situations.

I dont see why. These were the actions of one person. No matter how well you train people you cant avoid these things happening from time to time.

The criminal trial is a total and utter waste of money and in my opinion a spineless political move to placate the masses who want a lynching and temporarily calm them down for a couple of years.

A trial in this case is appropriate. A man needlessly gunned another man down.

Either way you listen to Dre et all, and you may as well replace that word cop with black or Jew or choose the minority you want...the only thing missing is a comment as to the officer's big nose or big lips to complete the scapegoating.

I know! Because having a negative opinion of an accused murderer is just like hating blacks and jews!

What a bunch of pathetic race-bating crap.

Edited August 26, 2013 by dre

[Black Dog]

Anybody catch this already?

Officer who tasered Sammy Yatim under investigation

[cybercoma]

Anybody catch this already?

Officer who tasered Sammy Yatim under investigation

I didn't realize Globe & Mail set themselves up a Pay Wall. What a stupid business practice. They should use their advertising revenues to pay for delivery, instead of trying to rook the consumers out of almost $250/year. Especially since typing "Sammy Yatim taser investigation" into Google gets me a link to the article without the paywall via Twitter. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-officer-who-tasered-sammy-yatim-under-investigation/article13941570/

[dre]

Theres another example of police doing it right against another lightly armed perp. In the case the perp is not contained in a bus, and as you can see at the beginning he rapidly advanced on one officer.

The police maintained range, and when it became obvious they were not going to be able to get this guy to comply without force non lethal force was used. Notice how the police work as a team, and how they seem to be communicating, and constrast that with the situation described by the OP where one cop was unloading his gun into a guy with a 3 inch knife from 20 feet, while all of the rest of the cops didnt even feel threatened enough to draw their guns.

I believe that if it were not for one trigger happy accused murderer the police at the scene of the street car incident would have done roughly the same thing.

Maintain range... Then incapacitate with NLF... Then swarm and pin...

And to the people suggesting that the people speaking out against the murder of the perp on that bus just hate police and are looking for an opportunity to bash them... Its just not true. Police handle thousands of such incidents without using deadly force. Most of them are well trained and do a good job. Thousands of lives have been saved by NLF, and the incident on that streetcar was exactly the case NLF is designed for.

Edited August 27, 2013 by dre

[Boges]

I didn't realize Globe & Mail set themselves up a Pay Wall. What a stupid business practice. They should use their advertising revenues to pay for delivery, instead of trying to rook the consumers out of almost $250/year. Especially since typing "Sammy Yatim taser investigation" into Google gets me a link to the article without the paywall via Twitter. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-officer-who-tasered-sammy-yatim-under-investigation/article13941570/

All four big Toronto papers are doing it now. Sign of the times. The New York Times appears to have had success putting up a Paywall.

BTW on topic. Toronto Police seem to be willing to make Tazers available to all officers not just supervisors.

[Black Dog]

And to the people suggesting that the people speaking out against the murder of the perp on that bus just hate police and are looking for an opportunity to bash them... Its just not true. Police handle thousands of such incidents without using deadly force. Most of them are well trained and do a good job. Thousands of lives have been saved by NLF, and the incident on that streetcar was exactly the case NLF is designed for.

Well said.

[g_bambino]

[T]he murder of the perp...

Best tell the judge for the officer's trial not to waste his time (or everyone's tax dollars); you've already reached a verdict.