Edward Snowden

[WWWTT]

This should give you a clue as to how they would handle an American being pursued by the United States for prosecution. If the government is not even willing to intercede on a Canadian's behalf to prevent him from being murdered by the US government, a practice which our government does not endorse, then there is no way in hell they would grant asylum to someone whom the US has labelled a national security threat and a traitor. He's a wanted "criminal" despite never having been tried and it being highly unlikely that he will be given a fair trial. Canada will support the US in whatever way they can to detain Snowden and return him to face his charges. Our country upholds the rule of law and in Snowden's case that means facing the courts for the crimes that he has been charged. Any doubts about the "fairness" of the trial are cynicism, speculation, and mere opinion; our government will not take this into account when considering the legality of harbouring a wanted criminal. If it were a country that is known to have an unfair judicial system, then it would be an entirely different story. Nevertheless, our government considers the US an ally and we consider their justice system to be fair. When our government fights to get people off death row, it is under the agreement that they will spend life in prison in Canada for their crimes. The US is under no obligation to agree to this. If you do a crime in their country, you face their courts and their penalties.

Fully aware of the conservative approach.

However in theory there would be a chance.

WWWTT

[Guest American Woman]

If the US government (and especially state governments) does one thing well, it's that they make it incredibly easy to criticize them. The problem with some Americans is that they're so nationalistic that they think criticizing the "US" means criticizing Americans, as opposed to what it actually is, criticizing the US government. All governments should be criticized, lest we be sheep.

Oh, please. Any government that one would choose to fixate on would be incredibly easy to criticize. The reality is, there are plenty of governments that are a heck of a lot easier to criticize than the U.S., but people just don't care about them - or the people.

Your own government is just as incredibly easy to criticize, yet so many choose to hide behind the facade that Canada is the Good Guy vs. The Evil U.S. As long as the focus is on the U.S., Canada can slip under the radar. We see it as so many refuse to believe that Canada was part of the support team in Iraq, for starters. Canada is the Good Guy, the one that refused to help the U.S. - and Canada certainly played that role well.

We see it here, in this thread, too. The countries that say they are willing to give asylum to Snowden are cheered - they are the Good Guys - simply because they say they will take in Snowden. Has anyone bothered to look at their governments? Their human rights record? Their laws in this area? Their actions? How taking Snowden in would affect the people of their country? Does anyone care about them? Not from what I've seen.

I've also seen it here regarding this very issue - the Canadian government says it spies on foreigners, but not Canadians, I am told. So that's accepted. Unbelievably. I swear more time is spent learning about the U.S. than about one's own country. Unbelievably. And all of the criticism because the U.S. spies on other countries - every country that is able to does it.

If Canada were ever put under the microscope that the U.S. is constantly under it wouldn't come out smelling like a Rose - it wouldn't come out smelling any better than the U.S. - and many a country would come out smelling worse.

As bush_cheney said, plenty of Americans criticize the U.S. government while there are plenty of sensitive Canadians who get their dander up any time an American dares to criticize Canada. In fact, some will go on and on about the U.S. - while refusing to read what Americans have to say about American issues. Methinks there are more than a few Canadians who need to take a good look in the mirror.

Edited July 8, 2013 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

And vice versa. Who would limit discussion, unless it made things worse/more boring anyway ?

No, IMHO it is much more one-sided for reasons we have discussed before. As quoted earlier:

Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States.

- J. Bartlett Brebner

[dre]

Looks like another thread successfully trolled.

[Michael Hardner]

No, IMHO it is much more one-sided for reasons we have discussed before.

I have checked out of such discussions long ago. Let it be discussed, I say.

[bush_cheney2004]

I've also seen it here regarding this very issue - the Canadian government says it spies on foreigners, but not Canadians, I am told. So that's accepted. Unbelievably. I swear more time is spent learning about the U.S. than about one's own country. Unbelievably. And all of the criticism because the U.S. spies on other countries - every country that is able to does it.

Yep...a real Canadian spy (naval officer) didn't get nearly as much attention as Mr. Snowden. I think Canada spends more time trying to preserve pensions for spouses of convicted perps.

[bush_cheney2004]

I have checked out of such discussions long ago. Let it be discussed, I say.

Of course....the U.S. dominates such discussions because Canadians consume so much American media. It's not like there aren't many other nations worth discussing, but MLW topics say otherwise. Snowden didn't go to Canada !

Edited July 8, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

Oh, please. Any government that one would choose to fixate on would be incredibly easy to criticize. The reality is, there are plenty of governments that are a heck of a lot easier to criticize than the U.S., but people just don't care about them - or the people.

We have threads that talk about other governments and their problems.

Your own government is just as incredibly easy to criticize, yet so many choose to hide behind the facade that Canada is the Good Guy vs. The Evil U.S. As long as the focus is on the U.S., Canada can slip under the radar. We see it as so many refuse to believe that Canada was part of the support team in Iraq, for starters. Canada is the Good Guy, the one that refused to help the U.S. - and Canada certainly played that role well.

Cry me a river. There are enough threads about Canada where us Canadians do criticize it to death.

However much of this criticism of the US government has come about since the 9/11 attacks. Launching a global war on terror and complaining to others like me when we criticize the actions related to the war on terror.

Bush and Cheney put the US in the sites of many people for criticism, and yet it's easier to blame Canadians posting in a forum for the shortcomings of the USA.

I've also seen it here regarding this very issue - the Canadian government says it spies on foreigners, but not Canadians, I am told. So that's accepted. Unbelievably. I swear more time is spent learning about the U.S. than about one's own country. Unbelievably. And all of the criticism because the U.S. spies on other countries - every country that is able to does it.

This matter has been addressed in that other thread. When you were asked if you still believed your government was telling you the truth, you fell silent. I for one do NOT believe my Canadian government when they say they are NOT spying on Canadians, and by that I mean they are not doing it legally.

You got an admission from me, care to step up to the plate?

If Canada were ever put under the microscope that the U.S. is constantly under it wouldn't come out smelling like a Rose - it wouldn't come out smelling any better than the U.S. - and many a country would come out smelling worse.

That might just be the case. Really odd how many times you and I actually agree on things.

As bush_cheney said, plenty of Americans criticize the U.S. government while there are plenty of sensitive Canadians who get their dander up any time an American dares to criticize Canada. In fact, some will go on and on about the U.S. - while refusing to read what Americans have to say about American issues. Methinks there are more than a few Canadians who need to take a good look in the mirror.

Oh this is a load of bull and this is complete trolling now. The only two who seem to be ultra sensitive are you and Bush_Cheney2004 with everything American. Even when your government CLEARLY is in the wrong, you still feel the need to defend it with some patriotism and blame Canadians for even talking about it.

[Guest American Woman]

We have threads that talk about other governments and their problems.

So let's talk about the countries that are saying they will take in Snowden. Do people have a clue as to what their human rights records are? How they treat their citizens? Do they know one thing about said countries? Do they care? Or is it all about cheering them on because of this one act - their claim that they will take Snowden in? Is that all that matters?

Cry me a river. There are enough threads about Canada where us Canadians do criticize it to death.

Cry me a river. Americans also criticize the U.S. to death. In fact, it's all I did when I first joined this board; it took me awhile to see things clearly.

However much of this criticism of the US government has come about since the 9/11 attacks. Launching a global war on terror and complaining to others like me when we criticize the actions related to the war on terror.

You're part of that war. Always have been. That's my point. Did you seriously not get that??

Bush and Cheney put the US in the sites of many people for criticism, and yet it's easier to blame Canadians posting in a forum for the shortcomings of the USA.

Other countries put themselves in the same position, yet it's all about the U.S. Canada even pretends it said "no" to Iraq.

This matter has been addressed in that other thread. When you were asked if you still believed your government was telling you the truth, you fell silent. I for one do NOT believe my Canadian government when they say they are NOT spying on Canadians, and by that I mean they are not doing it legally.

You're one person. Believe it or not, all of my comments weren't about you.

You got an admission from me, care to step up to the plate?

I've ;never denied that my government is spying on Americans as well as foreigners. I've never been ignorant enough to think otherwise. I also realize that every other country is doing the same, to the best of their ability. I also believe that Snowden would be faring a lot worse if he had done what he did in some other countries - including those making noise about taking him in and those criticizing the U.S. The ones that so many seem so eager to praise - without looking into said countries merits - or lack thereof. Without caring.

That might just be the case. Really odd how many times you and I actually agree on things.

Yes, we do agree on some things. I fail to understand how this never ceases to amaze you.

Oh this is a load of bull and this is complete trolling now.

If I had a dollar for every time a Canadian cried "trolling" because they don't like what the Americans say in response to what's been said, I could take another week off, I swear. Did you ever stop to think that all of the accusations of trolling are quite troll-like, as they add absolutely nothing to the discussion?

I'll have my say, and if you and a few others can't refrain from the "trolling" accusations in response, that is your problem - and it says a lot. It actually confirms a lot of what I was saying.

The only two who seem to be ultra sensitive are you and Bush_Cheney2004 with everything American.

This is one of the most ignorant statements on this board. Seriously. And again, it confirms what I said about looking in the mirror.

Even when your government CLEARLY is in the wrong, you still feel the need to defend it with some patriotism and blame Canadians for even talking about it.

You have no clue as to what I "feel," so please refrain from speaking for me. Notice that I don't make claims as to what you "feel." This comment, however, also confirms much of what I've said.

My advice about the mirror stands ..........................

[bush_cheney2004]

Cry me a river. Americans also criticize the U.S. to death. In fact, it's all I did when I first joined this board; it took me awhile to see things clearly.

Agreed...the added twist being that much of the "Canadian" criticism is imported from U.S. media anyway. The quotes and references are just a running inventory and regurgitation of U.S. programing...from cable news shows to comedy satire. Americans criticize their leaders and government as a matter of sport and entertainment...Canadians like to watch.

[Scotty]

Actually congress was lied to about the existance of the program. And we wont know if the program was legal or not until theres a constitutional challenge.

Either way... the guy did the right thing.

The congressional oversight committees were well aware of what was going on, as were the special federal judges involved, and the president.

This contrasts to France, where no one has any idea what they're doing, there is no oversight, and, if according to the media, there are no laws which actually allow it. Their whole surveillance setup is illegal.

If Snowden really believed what they were doing was illegal he could have gone to a lawyer and the media, not the Chinese and Russians.

[Signals.Cpl]

How much confidence would you put on that?

Enough to give it a go, at some point leaking Top Secret information becomes a viable option just like killing becomes a viable option under certain circumstances but you don't go to the last resort without even attempting to try all other avenues, its a last resort for a reason.

[Signals.Cpl]

No bringing these things up with your chain of command is a bad idea. You are supposed to bring them up to the Office of Special Counsel under the whistle blower protection act, but the enhancements passed by Obama also cover disclosure through the press in some cases.

Either way, whether it was legal or not he did the right thing.

Irrelevant if he did the right thing, he intentionally leaked secret information and is punished for that crime. As for going through the chain of command being a bad idea? That avenue should have been explored and attempted rather than skipping straight to the leaking, and by going through your CoC I do mean trying to skip a step or two, go to a senator or congressmen, hell give it to a republican and a democrat and one of them is bout to go with it...

There are reasonable steps to be taken before leaking top secret information, ignoring those steps and going straight to the leaking part makes him a criminal rather than a "hero"...

[Signals.Cpl]

This is false!

Maybe this is true in the US (not entirely sure of the laws there),but in Canada,this statement is flat out wrong.

WWWTT

Well, according to the paperwork I had to sign to get my security clearance it is true, and mind you my level of security clearance is a joke so I can only imagine what those with much higher levels had to agree to.

There was a piece of paper, I can guarantee you that, which stated if you release this information without authorization you will be punished. If the law did not attach specific punishment for breach of security clearance then that clearance is irrelevant...

[Signals.Cpl]

You're still on my ignore list,but I'll respond to this one comment of yours.

Snowden is seaking asylum in other countries,and if what he has done is NOT illegal in other countries where he seeks refuge,it will be easier to get it.

Since what he had done is not illegal in Canada,he can seek refugee status in Canada!

Even if what he done was not illegal in the US,if the government there doesn't like it,he will still be charged.

WWWTT

It's not illegal in other countries because he is not their citizen and he did not do that to their people. Spying for the Russians is not illegal in Russia but it is in the US, Canada and any other country. So by your logic, since until a few years ago rape was legal in Afghanistan I could have raped as many women as I want and still be innocent because its legal in Afghanistan?

[Signals.Cpl]

Fully aware of the conservative approach.

However in theory there would be a chance.

WWWTT

In theory there is a chance could apply for a lot of things that will never happen. In theory there is a chance that I am a ghost or an alien would you believe that?

And as for this being the conservative approach I doubt that any other Canadian political party would be too willing to even consider doing things differently when it comes to this case...

[jacee]

Irrelevant if he did the right thing, he intentionally leaked secret information and is punished for that crime.

Information the government wanted to keep secret from the people because they are using taxpayer dollars to spy on taxpayers without permission.

Who's illegal here?

As for going through the chain of command being a bad idea? That avenue should have been explored and attempted rather than skipping straight to the leaking, and by going through your CoC I do mean trying to skip a step or two, go to a senator or congressmen, hell give it to a republican and a democrat and one of them is bout to go with it...

There are reasonable steps to be taken before leaking top secret information, ignoring those steps and going straight to the leaking part makes him a criminal rather than a "hero"...

Trying to go through those steps first would likely make him fired.

Do you know where your tax dollars are going?

Is our government collecting numbers of everyone you phone, and everyone they phone and ... ?

Do we know?

He did the right thing.

[jacee]

If Snowden really believed what they were doing was illegal he could have gone to a lawyer and the media, not the Chinese and Russians.

He did leak it to the media - Guardian UK

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

There's no evidence he gave/sold anything to the Chinese or Russians.

He's a whistleblower, not a spy.

Edited July 9, 2013 by jacee

[Guest American Woman]

If Snowden really believed what they were doing was illegal he could have gone to a lawyer and the media, not the Chinese and Russians.

Going to the media was illegal.

[GostHacked]

For those not concerned about metadata.

This is an example in Germany.

http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention/

Green party politician Malte Spitz sued to have German telecoms giant Deutsche Telekom hand over six months of his phone data that he then made available to ZEIT ONLINE. We combined this geolocation data with information relating to his life as a politician, such as Twitter feeds, blog entries and websites, all of which is all freely available on the internet.

He actually had to sue to get his data. But the phone company would most likely give it to the government without hassle.

If you have a smartphone, you are being tracked this way.

[GostHacked]

http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_022211de-e81a-11e2-9d43-0019bb2963f4.html

Montana made history this spring after passing the first state law to prevent the government from spying on anyone in the state by tracking personal information stored in their electronic devices.

The new law made Montana a pioneer in the age of electronic privacy rights by requiring state and local government entities to obtain a probable-cause warrant before remotely engaging personal electronic devices.

House Bill 603, sponsored by Rep. Daniel Zolnikov, R-Billings, was signed into law by Gov. Steve Bullock on May 6.

“I didn’t even know it was the first one in the country,” Zolnikov said. “We just saw other legislation and thought, ‘Why aren’t we doing this?’”

The law defines an electronic device as “a device that enables access to or use of an electronic communication service, remote computing service, or location information service.” That could mean cellphones, laptops, tablets and other electronic products.

Although the bill’s passage marked a win for Zolnikov, he originally drafted a much more aggressive version of the bill – House Bill 400 – aimed at banning private companies and the federal government from accessing personal electronic data without a warrant.

That bill was a nonstarter in the House Business and Labor Committee, so Zolnikov introduced House Bill 603, a more narrowly targeted version that was later amended to eliminate restrictions on the federal government.

Too bad they were not able to get House Bill 400 enacted, that would have been a great move. But it's better than nothing for the moment.

[Signals.Cpl]

Information the government wanted to keep secret from the people because they are using taxpayer dollars to spy on taxpayers without permission.

Who's illegal here?

Irrelevant, he committed a crime and is being punished for said crime. Wether the information he leaked is or is not a crime does not change the fact that he broke laws pertaining to security clearance and secret information.

Trying to go through those steps first would likely make him fired.

Yeah because he sure seems to care about his job...

Do you know where your tax dollars are going?

To keep a bloated bureaucracy in existence.

Is our government collecting numbers of everyone you phone, and everyone they phone and ... ?

Do we know?

And if we knew for certain? What then? Do we stage a revolution only to change one form of government with another likely worse form of government who will do the exact same things and then some?

Do you think any other party is going to be different? And this is a broad question as in Canada and the US rather than the US only...

He did the right thing.

No he didn't, he skipped all the steps in the middle and went straight to the extreme. He broke the law and should be punished, if the information is truly illegal then that should factor in to his sentencing but that should not be the deciding factor of guilty or innocent.

Who decides that he did the right thing? You? What if I leak secret information because I think it is the right thing and you don't agree. Should I go to jail just because you don't agree?

[WWWTT]

Well, according to the paperwork I had to sign to get my security clearance it is true, and mind you my level of security clearance is a joke so I can only imagine what those with much higher levels had to agree to.

There was a piece of paper, I can guarantee you that, which stated if you release this information without authorization you will be punished. If the law did not attach specific punishment for breach of security clearance then that clearance is irrelevant...

Well there we go folks,if it was written on a piece of paper,it must be true and legitimate!

WWWTT

[dre]

Irrelevant, he committed a crime and is being punished for said crime. Wether the information he leaked is or is not a crime does not change the fact that he broke laws pertaining to security clearance and secret information.

Yeah because he sure seems to care about his job...

To keep a bloated bureaucracy in existence.

And if we knew for certain? What then? Do we stage a revolution only to change one form of government with another likely worse form of government who will do the exact same things and then some?

Do you think any other party is going to be different? And this is a broad question as in Canada and the US rather than the US only...

No he didn't, he skipped all the steps in the middle and went straight to the extreme. He broke the law and should be punished, if the information is truly illegal then that should factor in to his sentencing but that should not be the deciding factor of guilty or innocent.

Who decides that he did the right thing? You? What if I leak secret information because I think it is the right thing and you don't agree. Should I go to jail just because you don't agree?

Obviously whistle-blowers need to make that decision for themselves, and they take a big risk by doing so. Whether or not you should go to jail depends on the nature of the information you leaked. In general though we need people to do what they feel is the right thing.

At the end of the day Mr Snowden gave up his entire life. He had a good job, a cute girlfriend, he was a citizen of one of the best countries in the world to live in... Now he lives in a airport. Theres no indication at all that hes made a single dime from this disclosure and he will be hunted for the rest of his life.

I understand that authoritarian sycophants are angy that he challened their most beloved authority, but from my perspective (at least so far) he just did what he thought was right, and is willing to suffer the never ending wrath associated with that. Good for him! Id like to think Id have the balls to do the same, but Im not sure I would.

Edited July 11, 2013 by dre

[dre]

Going to the media was illegal.

Going to the media = Going to the American People. They were the ones whos rights were being violated, and any other disclosure would have been useless.