Scotty Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Of course....all of this "outrage" is beginning to strain credulity. There is no reason to be so naive given readily available information. The Israelis spy on the US routinely. The English spy on the French, who spy on the Germans. In fact, the French are among, if not the worst in the world in terms of industrial espionage. And, of course, the US, Russians and Chinese spy on everyone else, including each other. I agree. All this "shock" that the US would spy on the EU is nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 I think we're about to find out. That's the beauty of what Snowden did. Now we know. Seriously? You didn't know before? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Having difficulty understanding some of your post. Does this clarify? . Der Spiegel said information about the spying appeared in documents obtained by Edward J. Snowden, the former American intelligence contractor, and seen in part by the magazine. About the American spying, which was not really a surprise, cant fault the Americans for doing something that every other nations is doing and doing that on their soil. He may have released that the US was spying on the British, French, Germans, South Koreans etc... but that does not mean he released the intelligence gathered from that effort, and as I said I don't fault the US for spying on other nation's embassies on US soil since those embassies are likely spying on each other or the US in one form or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 You seem to forget that there is no rule of law in China. Any more than there is in Russia. The idea that either government would be deterred from doing anything they wanted to do because of insufficient paperwork or legal technicalities is hilarious. If China had wanted to send Snowden to the US they'd have simply scooped him up and put him on a plane. You have a link to back that opinion with? I was only posting a link explaining why China did what it did. I have dealt with the Chinese,Canadian,American,Portuguese,Thailand,etc,etc authorities many times. And from my experience,yes there are laws and protocol that is followed. True that sometimes these are waived or expediated in some cases. I am not aware of any exchange program between China and the US. If anything it shows that China isn't intimidated by the US! And good for them! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 If anything it shows that China isn't intimidated by the US! If anything, it shows quite the opposite. China couldn't rid itself of Snowden fast enough. It appears as if China had no desire to have to deal with this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 About the American spying, which was not really a surprise, cant fault the Americans for doing something that every other nations is doing and doing that on their soil. He may have released that the US was spying on the British, French, Germans, South Koreans etc... but that does not mean he released the intelligence gathered from that effort, and as I said I don't fault the US for spying on other nation's embassies on US soil since those embassies are likely spying on each other or the US in one form or another. Nope, no surprise. Everyone who is able to do it is doing it to the extent that they are able to; furthermore, every country would charge anyone who did what Snowden did within their country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 About the American spying, which was not really a surprise, cant fault the Americans for doing something that every other nations is doing and doing that on their soil. He may have released that the US was spying on the British, French, Germans, South Koreans etc... but that does not mean he released the intelligence gathered from that effort, and as I said I don't fault the US for spying on other nation's embassies on US soil since those embassies are likely spying on each other or the US in one form or another.Source?You really think the US tolerates allies spying in its embassies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) Nope, no surprise. Everyone who is able to do it is doing it to the extent that they are able to; furthermore, every country would charge anyone who did what Snowden did within their country.If they can catch him, but Snowden has plenty of support at home and abroad as he has outed the US for spying on its allies and its own people. Who's the criminal here? Had the US government been held to account for its transgressions of international and domestic law? Edited July 1, 2013 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Source? You really think the US tolerates allies spying in its embassies? What are they going to do? Kick them out? My source? The Israelis that keep on getting caught spying on the US... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 If they can catch him, but Snowden has plenty of support at home and abroad as he has outed the US for spying on its allies and its own people. Who's the criminal here? Had the US government been held to account for its transgressions of international and domestic law? Forget domestic law, what exactly did the US breach when it comes to international law? Espionage has existed in one form or another since the first nations were formed, it has been part of our daily existence for last hundred years, Israel spies on the US and when caught the spy get punished relations return to normal soon thereafter and the same would happen if it were any EU member. The Naval officer who was spying for Russia, where do you think the intelligence he was selling came from? Santa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Forget domestic law, what exactly did the US breach when it comes to international law? Espionage has existed in one form or another since the first nations were formed, it has been part of our daily existence for last hundred years, Israel spies on the US and when caught the spy get punished relations return to normal soon thereafter and the same would happen if it were any EU member. The Naval officer who was spying for Russia, where do you think the intelligence he was selling came from? Santa?So you're an 'anything goes' kinda guy? Regardless of laws, treaties, privacy rights, etc, governments-can-do-no-wrong?What about citizens of free democracies? Can we 'spy' on our governments to see what they're doing with our money, in our name? Can we expose our governments for invading our privacy, spying on us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 There are no laws, treaties, or privacy rights when it comes to spying, unless you get caught (but the spying continues). What's so special about "free democracies" when it comes to spying and intelligence collection ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 Interesting. Snowden has requested asylum in Russia. Quote Putin: "If he [snowden] wants to stay here, there is one condition: He must stop his activities aimed at inflicting damage on our American partners...." Putin: Snowden must stop leaking secrets to stay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted July 1, 2013 Report Share Posted July 1, 2013 There are no laws, treaties, or privacy rights when it comes to spying, unless you get caught (but the spying continues). What's so special about "free democracies" when it comes to spying and intelligence collection ? Well, if there is nothing wrong with the US spying on its so-called allies, then there is nothing wrong with Snowden telling everyone about it. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Well, if there is nothing wrong with the US spying on its so-called allies, then there is nothing wrong with Snowden telling everyone about it. Right? Has nothing to do with right or wrong. Even if the U.S. said it would stop, only a foolish ally would believe it. Snowden is a side show...let him sing like a bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 So you're an 'anything goes' kinda guy? Regardless of laws, treaties, privacy rights, etc, governments-can-do-no-wrong? No, I am the realistic guy that expects you to hold every other government and nation to the same standard as the US, cant say the big bad Americans are doing it ooooohhh they are pure evil but the nice EU nations are doing it yet they are so pure. China does the whole spying thing on a scale that the US can only dream starting from traditional espionage, to military espionage all the way down the line to industrial espionage. What about citizens of free democracies? Can we 'spy' on our governments to see what they're doing with our money, in our name? I dont know what you mean about "spy on their government", do you mean go through the PM's trash? Search history? As a citizen of a democracy you should inform yourself of the facts and its not spying, to be fair there are certain things that should be and are off limits to the average joe. Can we expose our governments for invading our privacy, spying on us? Go right ahead, I wont stop you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Well, if there is nothing wrong with the US spying on its so-called allies, then there is nothing wrong with Snowden telling everyone about it. Right? No there is something wrong with it, he signed a nice little document that stated in one form or another that he will not divulge any secret/top-secret information he broke the law so its wrong... I doubt any nation is surprised that the US is spying on them mainly because they themselves are doing the exact same thing in their own nations plus on US soil as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Has nothing to do with right or wrong. Even if the U.S. said it would stop, only a foolish ally would believe it. Snowden is a side show...let him sing like a bird. What you say may be true but here's the problem. Your government is making Snowden into a very big deal through the amount of political capital being expended on him. You say Snowden is a side show but the actions of your government say differently. You say that this type of spying is routine but then why the international furor? Maybe Snowden's real crime is that he's dared to expose the gross hypocrisy of international relations; where supposed allies spy on one another. Maybe that's why nobody really wants anything to do with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 No there is something wrong with it, he signed a nice little document that stated in one form or another that he will not divulge any secret/top-secret information he broke the law so its wrong... I doubt any nation is surprised that the US is spying on them mainly because they themselves are doing the exact same thing in their own nations plus on US soil as well. And you think it is always wrong to break the law? What secrets exactly has he given up that would really benefit another country? As far as I can tell, the only reason the authorities are upset was that he dared to say things that everyone here is claiming are common knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 No there is something wrong with it, he signed a nice little document that stated in one form or another that he will not divulge any secret/top-secret information he broke the law so its wrong... I doubt any nation is surprised that the US is spying on them mainly because they themselves are doing the exact same thing in their own nations plus on US soil as well.I'm pretty sure the government broke the law too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 No there is something wrong with it, he signed a nice little document that stated in one form or another that he will not divulge any secret/top-secret information he broke the law so its wrong... No theres nothing wrong with it what-so-ever. People SHOULD speak up when they see things they think are wrong. Its the morally right thing to do no matter what the law says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 No theres nothing wrong with it what-so-ever. People SHOULD speak up when they see things they think are wrong. Its the morally right thing to do no matter what the law says. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 No theres nothing wrong with it what-so-ever. People SHOULD speak up when they see things they think are wrong. Its the morally right thing to do no matter what the law says. That goes for those criticizing Snowden too, right? - Those who think he's jeopardized U.S. security and/or think he's hurting relations between countries should speak up, because it's the morally right thing to do. Those who think he's hurting the citizens within the countries he's seeking asylum in should speak up about that, too, because it's the morally right thing to do - while his jeopardizing their well-being is a rather selfish act, and not the morally right thing to do. Charging him with breaking the law under the circumstances, giving him his day in court, is also the morally right thing to do when one thinks he broke the law and is jeopardizing the country by having done so. Everyone has the right to do what they see fit; doesn't mean there won't be consequences as a result. I have to roll my eyes at Snowden's claim that Obama is messing with is "right" to "seek asylum." That right exists for the purpose of escaping persecution. There is a huge difference between being charged with a crime and having your day in court and "persecution." So very many people these days, it seems, are a victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 Forget domestic law, what exactly did the US breach when it comes to international law? What Snowden really revealed what the US was doing to it's own citizens. And really, international law? Like the support for the constitution varies so does support for international law. Support the point when convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted July 2, 2013 Report Share Posted July 2, 2013 No theres nothing wrong with it what-so-ever. People SHOULD speak up when they see things they think are wrong. Its the morally right thing to do no matter what the law says. Snowden is simply obeying Janet Napolitano's orders. He saw something, he said something. !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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