Supreme Court Guts The Key Part of Landmark

[Argus]

What's your evidence that it has anything whatsoever to do with not allowing people who are legally entitled to vote, to do so?

Oh get real. Where do you think this all came from? There was no such push before. The Americans have been voting for centuries. It's their national sport. They vote for EVERYTHING. And suddenly, out of the blue, there's a big push on ONLY from state Republican governors and parties all across the US to require government picture ID. What was the inspiration for this? A huge wave of voter fraud? But that hasn't happened. Voter fraud like this is so miniscule none of the authorities, either Democrats or Republicans, have ever previously shown any concern about it. Now suddenly the Republicans are adamant they have to have ID to prevent fraud. Riiiiight. Has nothing to do with all the poor people and minorities voting Democrat, huh?

[Argus]

Btw, anyone insisting on needing photo ID to rent a hotel room, buy cigarettes, buy alcohol, board an airplane, sign a lease, and apply for a passport is a complete and utter racist. We must change all of these racist laws to make our society much less racist. Because not doing so, just fosters more racism. And anyone disagreeing with me is a racism-loving racist.

There is more than ample evidence of the need for photo ID for such things. There is NO evidence of the need for photo ID for voting. Should we produce photo ID every time we buy a quart of milk? Every time we want to enter a public park?

Nor is this really racism. The Republicans don't want to dissuade Blacks from voting because they hate Black people. They want to dissuade them from voting because Blacks don't vote Republican. But really, the Republicans want to dissuade poor people from voting. That happens to catch up a lot of minorities, of course, but it's the poor this is aimed at. The Republicans are a party of the rich, for the rich, paid for and owned by the rich. All their policies are designed to help the rich, and most of them to harm the poor. OF COURSE they don't want poor people voting.

And frankly, I think you'd support anything, literally ANYTHING, if it aided far right neo-con causes. Your interest in democracy and freedom is nil.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

del

Edited June 29, 2013 by Argus

[kimmy]

I agree with AW in saying that presenting valid ID to vote is an entirely reasonable requirement. In this day and age there's no reason for any adult citizen not to have valid ID, not just for voting but for access to a wide range of services and activities that most of us take for granted.

But I also agree with Argus in saying that the real purpose behind this agenda is obvious.

The legislators who are pushing for voter ID laws claim they're fighting for the integrity of the democratic process, but their zeal for democracy apparently doesn't extend to fighting all the other shenanigans that have been done in the same states that are crying out for voter ID. Voter roll purges, inadequate polling facilities in areas with high concentrations of minority voters, gerrymandering, lawsuits to have polling stations removed from college campuses, phony voter registration clinics that resulted in boxes of registration applications being found in dumpsters, and on and on.

You'd think that if Rick Scott and Rick Perry and their ilk were really so all-fired excited about the integrity of the democratic process, they'd be championing legislation to ban all of this kind of trickery as well. But they aren't. They just care about voter ID. Which says all you need to know about what's really on their mind.

In the aftermath of the 2012 election, Republican analysts explained that their projections for a Romney victory were based on the assumption that more people would stay home. They lost because just as many young people and minorities voted in 2012 as in 2008, they concluded. Personally, I think that if your strategy for getting elected depends on having fewer people vote, it's probably a good indicator that your ideas are unpopular. But that's not how the leaders of Elephant Team see things.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Well, thanks for that insight.

You're welcome. Apparently it's escaped more than a few, so I'm happy to point out the reality.

[Bryan]

Oh get real. Where do you think this all came from? There was no such push before. The Americans have been voting for centuries. It's their national sport. They vote for EVERYTHING. And suddenly, out of the blue, there's a big push on ONLY from state Republican governors and parties all across the US to require government picture ID. What was the inspiration for this? A huge wave of voter fraud? But that hasn't happened. Voter fraud like this is so miniscule none of the authorities, either Democrats or Republicans, have ever previously shown any concern about it. Now suddenly the Republicans are adamant they have to have ID to prevent fraud. Riiiiight. Has nothing to do with all the poor people and minorities voting Democrat, huh?

I asked you what evidence you had, and that's your answer? Come on. In other words, there's NO evidence at all that this has anything to do with denying anyone the right to vote.

[bush_cheney2004]

The history of voting in the U.S. finds many. many restrictions and barriers from the nation's founding, from landowning males to poll tests BY DEMOCRATS in Jim Crow states. There were also restrictions on Asians, just like in Canada. It is a flat out lie to suggest otherwise.

[kimmy]

The history of voting in the U.S. finds many. many restrictions and barriers from the nation's founding, from landowning males to poll tests BY DEMOCRATS in Jim Crow states. There were also restrictions on Asians, just like in Canada. It is a flat out lie to suggest otherwise.

And?

-k

[Bryan]

In this day and age there's no reason for any adult citizen not to have valid ID, not just for voting but for access to a wide range of services and activities that most of us take for granted.

Exactly. If it's a genuine concern that some people might have trouble getting ID, then work on that problem also. Getting ID is pretty easy. You know what's hard? Going through daily life without it. `I don't think I could make it a week without needing to show ID to someone. If there are people who have gone their whole lives without it, chances are they need a lot more help than just a card with their picture on it anyway. Instead of opposing ID, the lefties should put their energy into that.

The legislators who are pushing for voter ID laws claim they're fighting for the integrity of the democratic process, but their zeal for democracy apparently doesn't extend to fighting all the other shenanigans that have been done in the same states that are crying out for voter ID. Voter roll purges, inadequate polling facilities in areas with high concentrations of minority voters, gerrymandering, lawsuits to have polling stations removed from college campuses, phony voter registration clinics that resulted in boxes of registration applications being found in dumpsters, and on and on.

You'd think that if Rick Scott and Rick Perry and their ilk were really so all-fired excited about the integrity of the democratic process, they'd be championing legislation to ban all of this kind of trickery as well. But they aren't. They just care about voter ID. Which says all you need to know about what's really on their mind.

The whole system in the US is practically designed to maximize opportunities for fraud. The reason the DoJ doesn't have statistics is precious little is kept track of for any stats to exist one way or the other. One can easily point to other things that need to be done, and they'd be right, but you don't default to doing nothing if you can't do everything at once. Start with the things that are easy to fix.

The biggest issue with fixing the other things you list is the US doesn't have an independent elections authority. The fox is guarding the hen-house in that the Republicans and Democrats are fully in charge of the whole thing. They enumerate their own voters lists for god sakes! Until they can take that control away from the parties, fixing those systemic issues is going to be nearly impossible. I don't know if there has ever been a push for an independent elections regulator in the US, but there should be.

[kimmy]

Start with the things that are easy to fix.

The easiest things to fix would be the things they're doing themselves, like voter roll purges, and inadequate polling facilities in areas with high concentrations of minority voters, and suing to take polling stations off of college campuses.

-k

[Wilber]

I think kimmy has got to the heart of it. Even though ID is a reasonable requirement, the integrity of the system is not the real reason its biggest champions are pushing it.

[Guest American Woman]

I think kimmy has got to the heart of it. Even though ID is a reasonable requirement, the integrity of the system is not the real reason its biggest champions are pushing it.

So should a reasonable requirement, a requirement that would help prevent voter fraud, ie: a good, reasonable requirement, be ditched because of the perceived reasons some are pushing it? That would make no sense at all.

[kimmy]

So should a reasonable requirement, a requirement that would help prevent voter fraud, ie: a good, reasonable requirement, be ditched because of the perceived reasons some are pushing it?

No, but perhaps discussing their real agenda will put pressure on these legislators to remedy the other issues instead of hiding under the cloak of patriotism.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

And?

...and Voter ID is just another legal attempt to stop voting by fraudsters, non-citizens, and other nefarious actors.

[Shady]

I think kimmy has got to the heart of it. Even though ID is a reasonable requirement, the integrity of the system is not the real reason its biggest champions are pushing it.

Actually, the integrity of the system IS the primary reason people are moving to these laws. Because the system has been so undermined by Democrats for several decades.

[Shady]

I asked you what evidence you had, and that's your answer? Come on. In other words, there's NO evidence at all that this has anything to do with denying anyone the right to vote.

Exactly. His view is a radical, out of the mainstream view. The vast majority of normal thinking people think valid ID is a legitimate and proper thing to require.

Anybody else scratch your head over a champion of the NSA surveillance program and they're snooping into the private lives of individuals being necessary for security reasons, but valid ID for security reasons regarding voting is over the top? What kind of mental gymnastics does one have to go through to square those views?

[kimmy]

Actually, the integrity of the system IS the primary reason people are moving to these laws. Because the system has been so undermined by Democrats for several decades.

If that's the case, why aren't people like Rick Scott doing anything about other shenanigans in their states?

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Actually, the integrity of the system IS the primary reason people are moving to these laws. Because the system has been so undermined by Democrats for several decades.

The partisan division and accusations regarding the intentions/actions of the other party serves as nothing more than an obstruction to any kind of reform - and that's true of both parties. I'm a Democrat and I totally support the requirement of a photo ID to vote. It's difficult to understand how anyone could think the ease or difficulty or impossibility of obtaining such a government ID is directly related to one's income.

Edited June 29, 2013 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

I agree with AW in saying that presenting valid ID to vote is an entirely reasonable requirement.

-k

I really don't see what's so reasonable about it. We can't even get the people who are supposed to vote to vote, let alone worry about people being so interested in voting that they do it fraudulently. The only time I've heard of voting fraud being a major issue in the US is with the Diebold machines, so I'm not really sure how ID would fix that. Do Americans not get voter cards like we do here?

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, the integrity of the system IS the primary reason people are moving to these laws. Because the system has been so undermined by Democrats for several decades.

Right...massive voter registration fraud by ACORN has resulted in multiple convictions and more state laws, like voter ID.

[cybercoma]

I asked you what evidence you had, and that's your answer? Come on. In other words, there's NO evidence at all that this has anything to do with denying anyone the right to vote.

And that's not what Argus has been arguing. He has been arguing that it dissuades poor people and others who generally vote Democrat from voting. He's not arguing that it denies, in other words makes it impossible for them to vote.

[bush_cheney2004]

Lots of things "dissuade" people from voting, and not just "poor people". So what ?

[Bryan]

And that's not what Argus has been arguing. He has been arguing that it dissuades poor people and others who generally vote Democrat from voting. He's not arguing that it denies, in other words makes it impossible for them to vote.

How does it dissuade them? Get an ID, boom, done.

It takes a lot of work to live your daily lives WITHOUT ID. I don't think I could make it a week without having to show it to someone for something. If these undocumented people were dragged kicking and screaming to get that ID, it would probably improve their lot in life overall, regardless of whether they ever voted or not.

Personally, I suspect the real reason for opposition to voter ID, is the Democrats are terrified to find out how much of their support comes from people who are actually illegal immigrants and should never have been voting in the first place.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Bryan

[Wilber]

Actually, the integrity of the system IS the primary reason people are moving to these laws. Because the system has been so undermined by Democrats for several decades.

I dissagree. While it may improve the integrity of the system, integrity is not the main concern of many of its biggest backers.

[bush_cheney2004]

Voter ID at time of registration and voting varies widely across the United States. Pick your favorite state:

http://advancementproject.org/map

Edited June 29, 2013 by bush_cheney2004