Harper attacks Justin

[Rue]

The issue is dead.Obama engaged in the almost identical refrain as Justin Trudeau a day later and no one said a peep.

Me personally I don't need to look at the root cause of terrorism and I will tell you why. The moment you do that you give terrorism credence by rationalizing it and saying it has justification.

I say bullshit to that.

There are people who come from the exact same environment as terrorists and they do not choose terrorism so don't give me this bullshit that terrorists are shaped by their environment.

All of us make choices. We all make choices what to do with our lives. If we choose violence over rational and civil behaviour there is no excuse for it.

None.Zero.

You won't rid the world of terrorism any more then you will rid it of poverty, crime, or any other social inequity. Life is imperfect. Humans are imperfect.

I salute those people who come from poverty, from environments of oppression and violence, from severe hardship and choose to embrace positive behaviour-they are my heroes and they are the people I base my life on-they are my role models and there is no shortage of them-refugees,immigrants, hard working shmucks, people who came hear with nothing escaping poverty, violence for an opportunity to be free and they did not choose violence and terror.

They chose life. They chose to make a difference.

You want to see what I mean go to the holocaust memorial in Washington and listen to the survivors on the way out. In the midst of utmost depravity and horror they chose to live-they chose to live to be witness to meaning from despair and tell the world no to violence-decency must rise from the ashes.

They are my heroes.

My heroes are people that escaped the famines of the Ukraine and Ireland, the Armenian slaughter, the slaughters of the aboriginal peoples, the

people who came to get away from the civil malaise in their countries and rejected terrorism and said, I am human-I will not lower myself to a violent terrorist.

Those are the people I focus on and I think with due respect to Trudeau and even Obama (who I personally like) focus on root causes is quaint-its nice in notion but it emphasizes focus on the wrong people and makes excuses. There are none.

There are no excuses or causes for violence other than but one-the failure of people on both an individual and group level to embrace the gift of rational,

civil thought.

Don't tell me its human to be violent and make excuses for it. Not me.I come from a family that lived through terrorism and chose to overcome it.

I witnessed it and no it did not anger me-I would not let the terrorists manipulate my emotions and never will. They get no feelings from me-none.

They get dettached existential response-they are meaningless. They have no relevance. Their existence does not come about until they choose to embrace rationality and civility. Until then they are nothing but a violent animal that needs to be put down if it refuses to step down.

[jacee]

I'd like nothing better than to see Harper start an election fight on this issue. .

This is not a time to commit sociology

What the hell does that even mean?

He sounds like a friggen moron.

[jacee]

Me personally I don't need to look at the root cause of terrorism and I will tell you why. The moment you do that you give terrorism credence by rationalizing it and saying it has justification.

There is no justification for bombing civilians.

But I think prevention always necessitates looking at causes, sources, targets, etc.

[Guest]

The root cause of the little brother's problem was the big brother. The root cause of the big brother's problem was some radical Islamist in Cambridge, Mass.

The last I heard, anyway.

I'm sure JT can read the news, just like I did.

[Keepitsimple]

Sources, Targets - check. No need to look for causes - Justin categorically said that obviously, the root cause was that these people are completely excluded......blah, blah, blah.

As I've said before - the truth is that these bloodthirsty zeolots only want to exclude anyone and everyone who does not follow their twisted ideology.

There is no justification for bombing civilians.

But I think prevention always necessitates looking at causes, sources, targets, etc.

[Moonbox]

eyeball, on 25 Apr 2013 - 20:10, said:

You're sneering again, the only reason you're saying this is because we disagree. Riddle me this, how did it occur to me to assign villainy to dictators? This statement of your's says a whole lot more about how jilted your own thinking is not mine.

I'm sneering at you because you're nattering on about the arbitrary villainous "corporations" and how they're going to somehow be held 'liable' for...whatever you think they're going to be held liable for.

eyeball, on 25 Apr 2013 - 20:10, said:

Where did this fairly enormous gap between the last thousand years and the last couple of generations suddenly come from?

Your selective grasp of history forgets the thousand years where the middle east was violent and expansionist and run by vicious monsters, all justified in the name of their religion. This was long before European colonialism. That kind of goes against your brain-dead conclusion that the West somehow MADE them into the frothing and brainwashed idiots they are today.

I ask you again to research Arab treatment of the Africa from 1000-1900 AD. Interesting stuff.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Moonbox

[eyeball]

I'm sneering at you

Ah, it's getting personal now is it? That's good, I see Harper is going there too.

I ask you again to research Arab treatment of the Africa from 1000-1900 AD. Interesting stuff.

I'm sure it is, but will my research tell me why you're such an apparent fan of the west's complicity in the rape, torture and murder of Muslims in pretty much every other region they live?

That kind of goes against your brain-dead conclusion that the West somehow MADE them into the frothing and brainwashed idiots they are today.

I never said that, what I said is, that the west arrested their development into rational democratic people by diddling with their governance.

Most of you people simply remind me off those who can't or refuse to believe it when the moral authorities they've vested a lifetime of belief in get caught molesting little kids. You however remind me the one's who actively try to cover it up.

[cybercoma]

I don't know what you are trying to say.

commentary on Ignatieff is a bit past its expiry date

[Guest]

I'm sure it is, but will my research tell me why you're such an apparent fan of the west's complicity in the rape, torture and murder of Muslims in pretty much every other region they live?

You mean like Bradford? I grew up there, and I can assure you it doesn't happen as often as you think.

I never said that, what I said is, that the west arrested their development into rational democratic people by diddling with their governance.

No, their religion is responsible for that. Or at least, their refusal to separate it from their governance.

[eyeball]

That wasn't the case with Mosaddegh, who the clerics eschewed for being too secular and western in his thinking. We played into the fundies hands when we eschewed democracy in the Muslim world in ways that almost make it seem like it was planned.

And no, I didn't mean Bradford.

[Moonbox]

Ah, it's getting personal now is it? That's good, I see Harper is going there too.

Personal? If you say so. My total disdain for your intellectually empty positions isn't something that's getting me particularly upset though.

I'm sure it is, but will my research tell me why you're such an apparent fan of the west's complicity in the rape, torture and murder of Muslims in pretty much every other region they live?

Your research, if it was an intellectually honest pursuit, would eventually have you come to the realization that your righteous crusade against these foggy arbitrary villains (ie. the West, the "Corporations' etc) was nothing more than an attempt to explain why you're so unhappy with your life.

I never said that, what I said is, that the west arrested their development into rational democratic people by diddling with their governance.

Interestingly, however, none of the states who've freed themselves from western interference have actually evolved into rational democracies. Iran, for example, has been totally independent for 34 years, yet is further from democracy now than it has ever been. In fact, when you look at all of the violently anti-western areas and countries in the world, literally none of them have legitimately elected governments. They've generally devolved either into either military of theocratic dictatorships, and they're among the worst in the world for freedom and human rights. I'm sorry eyeball, but your dumb theories don't seem to actually make any sense.

Most of you people simply remind me off those who can't or refuse to believe it when the moral authorities they've vested a lifetime of belief in get caught molesting little kids. You however remind me the one's who actively try to cover it up.

A goofy analogy by an angry and unhappy guy.

That wasn't the case with Mosaddegh, who the clerics eschewed for being too secular and western in his thinking. We played into the fundies hands when we eschewed democracy in the Muslim world in ways that almost make it seem like it was planned.

The Iranians were angry about the last Shah and the USA's support for that. That's understandable. This, however, by no stretch of any brand of logic, turns them into fundamentalists. The Middle East has ALWAYS been theocratic, and that's why it's never developed true democracy. A fanatically religious and willingly ignorant people is far too easy to control, and THAT's how thefundies gain control. That's how monarchs have ruled all over the world throughout history. Edited April 26, 2013 by Moonbox

[Fletch 27]

More Ammo for the "Education adds"!! Justin Trudeau didn't even show up to vote on his own motion for "BackBencher rights"...

Leaving Jason Kenny to comment:

Odd that Justin Trudeau didn't show up to speak to or vote on his 1st House motion as Liberal Leader. Away at another paid speaking gig?

-- Jason Kenney (@kenneyjason) April 25, 2013

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2013/04/lack-of-tory-backbench-support-dooms-liberal-bid-to-boost-mp-speaking-rights.html

The past Tory "Education Adds" are ringing true and keeping a track record of being accurate... This guy doesn't even know how to position a bill or motion.. He's creating his own mess

[eyeball]

Your research, if it was an intellectually honest pursuit, would eventually have you come to the realization that your righteous crusade against these foggy arbitrary villains (ie. the West, the "Corporations' etc) was nothing more than an attempt to explain why you're so unhappy with your life.

It's not been very difficult at all to realize how marginalization works or empathize with other people who've experienced it. I have friends and neighbours who were diddled with in government funded schools run by crazy and violent theologians. You don't need to be a historian or a sociologist to see how injustice works around the world or through time. It's like a fractal, where you can often discern the shape of the whole by simply looking at the smaller iterations unfolding around you.

Wealth and power have, historically, been having much the same influence on human beings everywhere you go for much the same reason. There's no mystery to the process of radicalization either.

Interestingly, however, none of the states who've freed themselves from western interference have actually evolved into rational democracies.

Rational according to you? Please...

Plenty are giving it a shot despite the deep dysfunction that our diddling sowed in their societies. You see the same struggle where I live in families and communities that were diddled.

Iran, for example, has been totally independent for 34 years, yet is further from democracy now than it has ever been.

It could be a lot closer than it's ever been, democracy protests are a common occurrence in Iran and are in fact becoming even more common.

In fact, when you look at all of the violently anti-western areas and countries in the world, literally none of them have legitimately elected governments. They've generally devolved either into either military of theocratic dictatorships, and they're among the worst in the world for freedom and human rights. I'm sorry eyeball, but your dumb theories don't seem to actually make any sense.

Another iterative analogy I see locally is how the struggle to recover and develop in the wake of being diddled is exacerbated by dispossession of natural capital that took place during the diddling. You're not allowing for the likelihood that we have helped denude some regions of the world of enough natural resources that they may never recover never mind develop. Of course I suspect you're of the sort of trite mindset that thinks they've simply gone through a little rough patch and need to roll up their sleeves, suck it up and get with the program. You see that sort of attitude displayed around here too.

A goofy analogy by an angry and unhappy guy.The Iranians were angry about the last Shah and the USA's support for that. That's understandable. This, however, by no stretch of any brand of logic, turns them into fundamentalists. The Middle East has ALWAYS been theocratic, and that's why it's never developed true democracy. A fanatically religious and willingly ignorant people is far too easy to control, and THAT's how thefundies gain control. That's how monarchs have ruled all over the world throughout history.

Always...never...are you completely blind to the fact you've just edited out the reality that Iran was prone to democracy over 50 years ago? Editing history is also how tyrants have ruled all over the world throughout history.

If you've seen one you've seen them all.

[Moonbox]

eyeball, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

I have friends and neighbours who were diddled with in government funded schools run by crazy and violent theologians.

Cool testimonial. I have friends who've been diddled by their older relatives. They still turned out to be decent human beings.

eyeball, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

Rational according to you? Please...

'Rational' isn't subjective. Any country that makes homosexuality illegal (or even punishable by death) is clearly not acting within the bounds of reason. Guess which countries those are?

eyeball, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

Plenty are giving it a shot despite the deep dysfunction that our diddling sowed in their societies. You see the same struggle where I live in families and communities that were diddled.

Um, which countries are those? Last I checked, the Islamic world's freedom indices were the worst in the world.

eyeball, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

It could be a lot closer than it's ever been, democracy protests are a common occurrence in Iran and are in fact becoming even more common.

Hey if they bring down the rabid fools they call their leaders, good for them.

eyeball, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

Of course I suspect you're of the sort of trite mindset that thinks they've simply gone through a little rough patch and need to roll up their sleeves, suck it up and get with the program. You see that sort of attitude displayed around here too.

This is what I was talking about by the giant chip on your shoulder. You're bringing a completely unrelated and fundamentally different set problems into the argument that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

eyeball, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

You've just edited out the reality that Iran was prone to democracy over 50 years ago?

I didn't do any such thing. You have a real logic problem I think. The West's interference in Iran may have slowed down or paused Iran's political evolution, but the likelihood of a secular democracy emerging from that was pretty low considering how the rest of the Muslim world has turned out. Take a look at the freedom rankings of all the world countries and you'll find a pretty disturbing and obvious trend. The 'democracies' and 'republics' of the Islamic world typically don't turn out very democratic.

[hitops]

It's not been very difficult at all to realize how marginalization works or empathize with other people who've experienced it. I have friends and neighbours who were diddled with in government funded schools run by crazy and violent theologians. You don't need to be a historian or a sociologist to see how injustice works around the world or through time. It's like a fractal, where you can often discern the shape of the whole by simply looking at the smaller iterations unfolding around you.

Wealth and power have, historically, been having much the same influence on human beings everywhere you go for much the same reason. There's no mystery to the process of radicalization either.

Rational according to you? Please...

Plenty are giving it a shot despite the deep dysfunction that our diddling sowed in their societies. You see the same struggle where I live in families and communities that were diddled.

It could be a lot closer than it's ever been, democracy protests are a common occurrence in Iran and are in fact becoming even more common.

Another iterative analogy I see locally is how the struggle to recover and develop in the wake of being diddled is exacerbated by dispossession of natural capital that took place during the diddling. You're not allowing for the likelihood that we have helped denude some regions of the world of enough natural resources that they may never recover never mind develop. Of course I suspect you're of the sort of trite mindset that thinks they've simply gone through a little rough patch and need to roll up their sleeves, suck it up and get with the program. You see that sort of attitude displayed around here too.

Always...never...are you completely blind to the fact you've just edited out the reality that Iran was prone to democracy over 50 years ago? Editing history is also how tyrants have ruled all over the world throughout history.

If you've seen one you've seen them all.

What you're saying here eyeball is just a rehash of the standard, politically popular social narrative about how when you get people down they start to make trouble. This a load of nonsense, and eventualy the pendulum will swing away from this once it is no longer in vogue. In the meantime we deal with it.

Your worlview requires a large degree of willful blindness to counter examples. Firstly, middle eastern countries have been killing each other, and the countries around them for centuries before they dealth with European colonization. The first one to try it were the founder of Islam and his friends, and their foundational doctrine fully supports it on principle. When he died, they just fought amoung themselves, in the name of the religion. Secondly lots and LOTS of people have found success and prosperity despite being persecuted. Sometimes repeatedly, such as the Jews or the Mennonites to name two groups. They lost many lives, repeatedly were dispossed and exiled, faced institutionalized discrimination etc. Yet, they suceeded based on their value systems, and they successded very well. Thirdly, is the obvious fact that displacing the so called 'western backed' dictators has not worked out very well, and in almost every case resulted in a worse situation. You don't understand that a large plurality of middle eastern peoples do not support the revolutions because they want democracy and equal rights for all, they support them because they are looking forward to more opportunity to exercise their own brand of persecution and vengeance against whatever group/tribe/minority/family/sect they hate. That is the difference between real life in the middle east, and the sanitized softy nonsense pedalled as socially correct thinking.

The most important predictor of how a person or group will turn out, is that's group value system and view on life. Our ancestors had a certain type of value system and we live in the blessings of what they built. That includes countires that were completely destroyed (Germany, Japan) but who's people had a certain type of culture that lent towards success. People in other parts of the world do not have that history, culture, religions heritage of system social behavior, and they get different results. I hope you tune into this one day.

[guyser]

'Rational' isn't subjective. Any country that makes homosexuality illegal (or even punishable by death) is clearly not acting within the bounds of reason. Guess which countries those are?

Bahama's , Barbado's , Trinidad and Tobago,New Guinea,Guyana , Russia, Ukraine and about 70 more.

[Moonbox]

Are those countries supposed to be a counter-point against something? Russia is supposed to be used as an example of what, exactly? Homosexuality has been legal in Russia for decades. In a couple of tiny regions, for whatever reason, it's illegal to talk about it among minors. Regardless, it's a craphole as well, but a different type of craphole at least. Those other 70 countries, however, have something very interesting in common.

Let's look at a map, shall we: http://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Edited April 26, 2013 by Moonbox

[PIK]

Trudeau calling harper decisive and a devider is really a personal attack on harper. Where's the outrage.

[guyser]

Are those countries supposed to be a counter-point against something?

Just answered a question you posed. You seemed to want to lump them all together as not rational.

[Moonbox]

I want to lump their legal and political systems together as broken travesties, yes. The non-Muslim countries you listed can certainly be lumped in with that. My point, however, was that there's a damning correlation between a country being Muslim-ruled and a country outlawing homosexually, and that's only one small example of how irrational their faith-based governments typically are.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Moonbox

[guyser]

I want to lump their legal and political systems together as broken travesties, yes. The non-Muslim countries you listed can certainly be lumped in with that.

Hmm...Parliamentary democracies are broken travesties?

[Moonbox]

My, you're quite the fan of herring aren't you?

Parliamentary democracies can be broken. Again, I'm wondering why you thought Barbados' stance on homosexuality was relevant to the fact that virtually ALL Islamic states outlaw it.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Moonbox

[guyser]

My, you're quite the fan of herring aren't you?

I dont mind them pickled , prefer sardines though and anchovies are the bomb !

Parliamentary democracies can be broken. Again, I'm wondering why you thought Barbados' stance on homosexuality was relevant to the fact that virtually ALL Islamic states outlaw it.

Relevant? Your the one who brought these countries into the discussion, wrongly of course since you assumed they were all shitholes with lousy govt's.

[Moonbox]

I didn't bring them in the discussion. You did. I asked you to take a look at the countries where gay marriage is illegal in the context of a discussion about Islamic politics. Looking at the list, probably around 85-90% of them are Muslim countries with Muslim governments. You thought you were being clever by picking through the list and highlighting the ones that weren't, as if that actually meant anything at all.

The point I was very obviously trying to make is that Islamic governments operate mostly on the principles of vague interpretations of ancient Islamic teachings rather than reason, logic or fairness. Is it rational to execute or imprison a man for being attracted to other men? Only in their world.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Moonbox

[guyser]

I didn't bring them in the discussion. You did. I asked you to take a look at the countries where gay marriage is illegal in the context of a discussion about Islamic politics. Looking at the list, probably around 85-90% of them are Muslim countries with Muslim governments. You thought you were being clever by picking through the list and highlighting the ones that weren't, as if that actually meant anything at all.

Had you said that, you would have a point, but you know you didnt.

You said...

Any country that makes homosexuality illegal (or even punishable by death) is clearly not acting within the bounds of reason. Guess which countries those are?

The<

br />point I was very obviously trying to make is that Islamic governments operate mostly on the principles of vague interpretations of ancient Islamic teachings rather than reason, logic or fairness.

Now its obvious? It wasnt.

Be obvious next time then

Edited April 26, 2013 by guyser