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Posted

...and if the Muslim Arabs 'get their way'...then what happens?

Are you presenting me with a false choice here? Who are the Muslim Arabs you are talking about? How do the settlers prevent these eveil people from getting their way?

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Posted

Are you presenting me with a false choice here? Who are the Muslim Arabs you are talking about? How do the settlers prevent these eveil people from getting their way?

The so-called Palestinians. What do you suppose they'll be busy doing if they 'get their way'? Do you expect a cosmopolitan multicultural state will emerge similar to Israel? Or will it be a Judenrien Islamic state with a certain aggressive religion equaling law?

Posted

The so-called Palestinians. What do you suppose they'll be busy doing if they 'get their way'? Do you expect a cosmopolitan multicultural state will emerge similar to Israel? Or will it be a Judenrien Islamic state with a certain aggressive religion equaling law?

What they do with their state is their business. But it's the only choice with the possibility of peace - this is recognized even by those former heads of Mossad. It may not be the ideal neighbor to Israel, but it's the best choice Israel has. Annex the West Bank, and Israel just buys noting but trouble. Keep taking the best land, and the calls of Apartheid will just get stronger and Israel become more and more of a pariah. Sometimes you just have to make the least worst choice.

Posted (edited)

What they do with their state is their business. But it's the only choice with the possibility of peace - this is recognized even by those former heads of Mossad. It may not be the ideal neighbor to Israel, but it's the best choice Israel has. Annex the West Bank, and Israel just buys noting but trouble. Keep taking the best land, and the calls of Apartheid will just get stronger and Israel become more and more of a pariah. Sometimes you just have to make the least worst choice.

What does the Koran say about Jews? Has that viewpoint changed at all? How will allowing the Arabs a do-over of the 6 Day War's results bring peace to the region?

Edited by DogOnPorch
Posted (edited)

Obama had an interview with an Israeli station earlier this month, just before he left to visit thecountry. In the interview he stated that he admires Israel’s “core values.” Israeli journalist Gideon Levy, who has been covering the occupied territory for decades, editorially asked Obama,

which values he was talking about? The dehumanization of the Palestinians? The attitude toward African migrants? The arrogance, racism and nationalism? Is this what he admires? Don’t separate buses for Palestinians remind him of something? Doesn’t two communities living on the same land, one with full rights and the other with no rights, ring a bell . . . ?

Racism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing, are replaced by imaginary “core values” in order to sell something that is obviously wrong and unsustainable.

A CIA report has already mentioned that if Israel continues down the same path, it will not last more than 20 years. Israel has a chance to change its path, but I don't see it happening. Not with the self denial, the type of people who run it and those who make excuses for it.

Edited by Hudson Jones

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi

Posted (edited)

@Rue. The thing is you are conflating settlements and military occupation of the West Bank. The former, I see only as an impediment to peace, and if the Settlers get their way will lead to the demographic destruction of Israel or a mass ethnic cleansing that would set that area aflame. It only endangers Israel, doesn't make it safer. The latter, as long as some Palestinians continue to attack Israel, (Just as only some Israelis support the settlements) is perfectly justified in my view.

I do hold Israel to a different standard by saying they should make the first move. Because they are in the one up position, and quite frankly because they are, and lay claim to being, the more civilized society. That comes with certain obligations of behavior.

I didn't conflate anything.....maybe you meant corelate? I didn't even co-relate. At no time have I made the direct or even indirect inference that settlements are a security counter-measure to terrorism. I used to before satellite technology. At one point settlement posts were early observation posts used to monitor terrorists probably not any more.

Your double standard and blanket support of terrorism by Palestinians speaks for itself and the credibility of such comments.

Edited by Rue

I come to you to hell.

Posted (edited)

Are you presenting me with a false choice here? Who are the Muslim Arabs you are talking about? How do the settlers prevent these eveil people from getting their way?

Sorry but just who has presented the false choice? Have you read back your words? You made a blanket condonation of terrorist attacks on Israel and have suggested the IDF is not on the West Bank because of security issues only to protect settlers-your words not mine.

In my world Israel has choices, one of them is to do what you suggest and unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank. Of course that choice is false. It can not. That is not just a false choice suggestion but completely lacking in any sense.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and was attacked the same day it left. Hezbolah said if Israel withdrew from Lebanon it would disarm-not only did it refuse to disarm, it imported thousands of missiles, and flooded Israel's borders with armed Hezbollah then attacked Israel.

What world do you live in where you come up with this b.s. moral standard that Israel must act in a vacuum because you say so? What it must expose its people to extinction because you say so and people are justified to engage in terrorism against it and try wipe it out and it should not prevent such a thing?

Get real.

Israel has many choices but the one you offer-extinction is not one of them.

Edited by Rue

I come to you to hell.

Posted

Israel has many choices but the one you offer-extinction is not one of them.

Expecting Israel to follow international law, stop human rights violations and apartheid-like policy does not equal to the extinction of Israel. What a terrible, illogical and uneducated comment to make.

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi

Posted

Expecting Israel to follow international law, stop human rights violations and apartheid-like policy does not equal to the extinction of Israel. What a terrible, illogical and uneducated comment to make.

The same 'international law' that seeks to make blasphemy a criminal offense in secular nations?

Posted

The same 'international law' that seeks to make blasphemy a criminal offense in secular nations?

What?

The colonies are illegal under various provisions of international law. Article 49, paragraph 6, of the fourth Geneva Convention, which Israel signed, stipulates that:
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
What is more:
The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) also expressly identifies the transfer of an Occupying power’s own civilian population to the territory it occupies as a war crime punishable by the ICC.
In 2004, the International Court of Justice gave a formal ruling to the effect that Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, violated international law.
Many human rights reports found that Israeli colonies and their associated institutions inherently violate international law. These colonies and their related infrastructure, such as checkpoints and roads for exclusive Israeli use, severely restrict Palestinians' access to jobs, lands, schools and hospitals.

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi

Posted

Yeah, the ICC did dick about North Viet-Nam's aggression. So you're unlikely to get Israel to submit to Arab aggression. Good luck with your life-long project of dismantling the Jewish Zionist state, though. You'll be an old man and still barking the same ol' tune...heh.

Posted

To illustrate how old you'll be and still ranting about Israel, enjoy this MP3 from a 1960 Stan Freeburg radio show. The Gaza Strip is featured..."Incident At Los Varoses" It's after the Tuned Sheep skit....

http://archive.org/download/StanFrebergShowThe/The_Stan_Freberg_Show_57-07-14_01_Musical_Sheep.mp3

Posted

Too bad that the two state-solution seems to be losing support on both sides as it would be in both sides' interest. After all, the demographic development is much slower within the Jewish community than in the Arabic community. So, if Israel insists on holding to the occupied territories they run the risk of one day being minority in Israel which is a designated Jewish country.

At the same time, of course, the Arabs would become second class citizens; a situation not very far from apartheid.

Unfortunately, both sides are dicated too much by the hotheads. Israel's existence is permanent despite what the Arab hotheads are preaching. The Palestinians are having a much higher birth-rate than the Jewish people are despite what Netanyahu and other hotheads in the Israeli government are saying.

Posted (edited)

Expecting Israel to follow international law, stop human rights violations and apartheid-like policy does not equal to the extinction of Israel. What a terrible, illogical and uneducated comment to make.

"Hudson Jones" you again engage in a false statement. You claim i made the above statement. Please restract it. I have never complained about a poster on this forum but I am about to make an exception with you. You have absolutely no right to come on this forum and misquote people.

I never said the above statement-you created it and now falsely assign it to me and I want a retraction or I will ask the moderator to intervene. Its time you understand that such tactics are unwarranted.

Stick to your opinions and what you stated. If you want to refer to my statements, quote them directly. Don't fabricate words and say I created them.

More to the point the comment you made and falsely ascribe to me is in fact illogical.

Israel has the right under international law to protect itself and that includes the assurance of safe and defensible borders. As well under international law the West Bank was never and is not part of a sovereign country that Israel seized and so if you can not understand what that means or deliberately ignore what that means under international law I will explain-you can have the UN pronounce all the unilateral declarations it wants that the land on the West Bank should be used for a Palestinian state but there is still no Palestinian state. In fact the notion of "Palestinians" was only created by Arafat in 1967 when he was thrown out of Jordan after failing to assasinate King Hussein and seize power.

It was only at that time the rhetoric from him changed to refer to Palestinians as a people wanting a Palestinian country. Until then he stated openly as did all the anti Israeli pro Palestinian Arab League nations that Israel and Jordan should be dismantled but there was no mention of a Palestinian state-the land was to be divided up by Egypt, Syria,and Iraq. that is why those three formed a United Arab Republic under Nasser.

Syria claimed Lebanon was part of Syria as was Israel and Jordan.

Iraq claimed Jordan.

After Jordan was faced with attack from the UAR in decided because of pressure from them Saudi Arabia and the Arab League to unify under Nasser and be part of the planned invasion of Israel in 1967 which Israel then pre-empted.

When Jordan found itself also on the receiving end of Arafat and his attempt to invade and control it, it pulled out of the West Bank requiring Israel to move in if Arafat and his terrorist cells at that time were to be prevented from attacking Israel.

You act like Israel went into Jordan for no other reason but expansion. It originally went in because it was sick and tired of the terror attacks launched by Arafat from the West Bank on Israelis.

Your script "Hudson Jones" again perpetuates the myth that Israel operates in a vacuum and simply went into the West Bank for no reason. The reason it went in remains unresolved as long as terror cells are funded by Iran and operate without impunity and you are well aware of that.

The original settlement posts were early warning posts observing terrorist movements. They now are pretty much obsolete thanks to satelleites other security devices and the wall.

Their growth has created an obstacle to a future over all long term peace for a two nation state but that is but one factor in the over all reason peace can not be achieved and to suggest you can resolve a conflict by ignorning terrorism and pretending it does not exist and negatively limit and impact what Israel can do when pulling out is illogical let alone absurd.

What is in fact illogical is for you to try falsely misquote me or suggest something I said which I did not, then perpetuate a one sided script which on the one hand demands Israel follow international and humanitarian laws, but on the other hand remains silent to the fact that Israel can not do so if on its borders, remain terrorists, dedicated to breaking the very international and humanitarian laws you expect Israel to follow.

In fact your belief Israel could follow international law in such circumstances is laughable let alone illogical but then that is your script right-simply criticize Israel and refuse to acknowledge terrorism survives and is omni-present on the West Bank.We just pretend like you Israel is surrounded by people who only engage in justified attacks right? You and Canuck figured that out. The terrorist attacks are all justified right?

Go on "Hudson Jones" finish what you started. What is the basis for you to argue it is logical to believe Israel can obey international law and humanitarian laws while terrorists operate without any restrictions? Do tell me.

Tell us all why you will not acknowledge for Israel to be able to withdraw let alone avoid having to be on the ground on the West Bank as a solution to an overall long term peace, this is not to be attacked with the the dismantling of terrorism.

Please explain.

Explain how it is before the IRA came to the table and talked peace with the UK over Northern Ireland this could not take place until it disarmed and openly denounced terrorism, but using your logic, Israel is to simply withdraw and leave itself vulnerable to terrorism on its borders?

Do explain.

You have been asked to many times but you don't. When asked a question directly you change the subject and deflect as you have with me over and over.

In this case once again not only have you mis-state dand falsely attributed a statement to me, but you did so to once again deflect from a point I made to you and you did not know how to answer.

"Hudson Jones" I will see this through. I am going to follow your scripts and play them back and keep exposing the pattern.

Lol, you are currently ignoring my responses on how many threads while starting daily anti Israel sound bites....lol.

Give my regards to"Bud".

Now retract the statement please or I will point it out to the moderator and ask them to ask you to.

Fair is fair. You are quick to point out and complain about me "Hudson Jones" but you engage in practices none of us are allowed

to engage in on this forum. Be honourable and stop attributing comments to people they never made.

Be clear when you are re-interpretating what you think someone said.

Edited by Rue

I come to you to hell.

Posted

One must understand then deal with the legality of Israel's actions before going into long emotional rants and personal opinions

Here is the International Court of Justice's opinion on Israel's wall, East Jerusalem and the settlements in the West Bank.

Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory

The Court responds to the question as follows:

- “A. By fourteen votes to one,

The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law”;

- “B. By fourteen votes to one,

Israel is under an obligation to terminate its breaches of international law; it is under an obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall being built in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, to dismantle forthwith the structure therein situated, and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith all legislative and regulatory acts relating thereto, in accordance with paragraph 151 of this Opinion”;

- “C. By fourteen votes to one,

Israel is under an obligation to make reparation for all damage caused by the construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem”;

- “D. By thirteen votes to two,

All States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction; all States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 have in addition the obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention”;

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi

Posted (edited)

Your attempt to ignore the false statement you made and deflect the comment and ignore the points I made are no surprise. I am now on record as making a formal complaint as to your mistatement. I have never complained about a forum member but you are a first. You want to call me names, refer to my remarks as rants or emotional, does not bother me. Atttributing comments or positions to me you made not I aint gonna float with me. If you think you will mistate my positions you have another thing coming.

Edited by Rue

I come to you to hell.

Posted

Your attempt to ignore the false statement you made and deflect the comment and ignore the points I made are no surprise. I am now on record as making a formal complaint as to your mistatement. I have never complained about a forum member but you are a first. You want to call me names, refer to my remarks as rants or emotional, does not bother me. Atttributing comments or positions to me you made not I aint gonna float with me. If you think you will mistate my positions you have another thing coming.

At the risk of another incoherent, long-winded, personal opinion about who I am, my agenda and the white-washing of Israel's actions and the history of the region, I must say; You are not able to have a proper debate. This is why you rarely get a response from people.

When a person tries to brush aside and pretend that numerous human rights reports, international court of justice opinions and other expert organizations, because he doesn't like how Israel is being criticized, then there is no point in communicating with that person.

Interests:being self-righteous<br />annoying people<br />engaging in confrontations<br />being opionated<br />spewing off at the mouth<br />talking on and on

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi

Posted

It's important to realize that many groups from different backgrounds also agree that Israel practices apartheid-like policies, especially in the occupied territories. Some of the loudest voices against Israel's human rights violations and arrogant and immoral treatment of Palestinians are Jews both inside Israel and outside Israel.

0001.jpg

When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi

Posted

At the risk of another incoherent, long-winded, personal opinion about who I am, my agenda and the white-washing of Israel's actions and the history of the region, I must say; You are not able to have a proper debate. This is why you rarely get a response from people.

When a person tries to brush aside and pretend that numerous human rights reports, international court of justice opinions and other expert organizations, because he doesn't like how Israel is being criticized, then there is no point in communicating with that person.

My responses to your allegations are on record as are your refusal to respond to them. Your attempt to now justify why you do not respond confirms its deliberate and you once again show the forum that you present one view and when one disagrees with it, you ignore them.

I also find it interesting you now try deflect and turn yourself into "people".

We are talking about you "Hudson Hones"not anyone else. The attempt to deflect and turn yourself into "people', i.e., more than one persosn, its a tactic I haven't seen you use before, but gosh "Hudson Jones" I seem to remember "Bud" doing that with me.

I will state it again. Not one, not one post of mine has denied any human rights offence Israel has engaged in. Finish what you start. You made an allegation I brush aside human rights offences. Go on. Back it up. Find the post where I denied Israel engaged in a human rights offence.

You again make a misrepresentation.

The only thing I have done is present the other side of arguements you raise.

Lol you again not only misrepresent but think you can pronounce unilaterally what "proper" debate means?Lol. you do realize you have once again proven what I stated, and that is you try control any communications with you when you don't agree with the person who challenges you-lol now you declare I do not "properly " debate. Lol.

Why because I disagree with you? That's not proper?

Lol.

I am still waiting for clarification as to why I was told I insulted you by the way.

Its fun "Hudson Jones" watching you engage in the same tactic. Fun fun fun.

Look at world, I am now "improper", so declares "Mr. Jones".

So Mr. Jones, you think its proper what you do? You think its proper stating an apology as an admission of legal liability? You think its

proper to accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being improper?

Lol.

I come to you to hell.

Posted

This thread is being locked temporarily for us to sort out this mess.

In the mean time, please avoid personal attacks folks. They ruin it for everybody.

Ch. A.

We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society.

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