US dead last in health care

[waldo]

Don't pop a vein.....the numbers are what they are. Do they apply for free cars too ?

yes, most definitely - the numbers are what they are. A true testament to your ongoing clown show. A true testament that you have nothing to continue barking over. Your OHIC OOC talking point has been busted - the numbers are minuscule, whether you can accept it, or not. You continue to rattle on over the number... the number now less than 1000 a year. Busted!!!

[waldo]

Whatever impact ObamaCare may have does not improve the situation in Canada, and may make it even worse.

Oh my! Is this you now back-peddling and ever so slightly admitting there will be an Obamacare impact on your healthcare system?

Maybe Canada can teach the U.S. what official government "Wait Time" means.

your country has its own concerns over wait times, whether you are willing to accept and acknowledge that fact.

[bush_cheney2004]

[/font][/color]

yes, most definitely - the numbers are what they are. A true testament to your ongoing clown show. A true testament that you have nothing to continue barking over. Your OHIC OOC talking point has been busted - the numbers are minuscule, whether you can accept it, or not. You continue to rattle on over the number... the number now less than 1000 a year. Busted!!!

Why are there any "numbers" at all ? For the umpteenth time, why do Canadian provinces have to use American healthcare resources to meet their mandated CommieCare obligations ? Why? Why? Why?

[bush_cheney2004]

your country has its own concerns over wait times, whether you are willing to accept and acknowledge that fact.

Let me check for my state's official wait time web site.....searching....searching.....searching.....can't seem to find it. But I do get lots and lots of hits for provincial wait times !!

[waldo]

Let me check for my state's official wait time web site.....searching....searching.....searching.....can't seem to find it. But I do get lots and lots of hits for provincial wait times !!

you just ignore anything presented to you anyway... you totally blew off the earlier references to the long wait times to see a specialist in your largest U.S. cities. You also blew off the pointed references to the Massachusetts wait times attributed (in part) to 'RomneyCare'... highlighting the impact of universality is an inconvenient truth for you!

another MLW member provided you an answer to this same point/question you now pose again: perhaps your governments choose to keep its citizens in the dark over the sorry state of wait times in your system - ya think? Is that your measure on the American health disadvantage... the presence of a website?

but really, you're becoming (more) boring - do you have something new? Anything? Or will you simply continue to fixate on wait times (while ignoring your own country's), or on a minuscule number of out-of-country treatments (while ignoring your own country's hugely, massively, disproportionate number of same)... while ignoring, while deflecting from the OP theme; i.e., the American Health Disadvantage? Do you have anything new?

[bush_cheney2004]

you just ignore anything presented to you anyway... you totally blew off the earlier references to the long wait times to see a specialist in your largest U.S. cities. You also blew off the pointed references to the Massachusetts wait times attributed (in part) to 'RomneyCare'... highlighting the impact of universality is an inconvenient truth for you!

That's all you got ? Massachusetts? Where are the wait time web sites ? I want web sites dammit...just like in Canada !

another MLW member provided you an answer to this same point/question you now pose again: perhaps your governments choose to keep its citizens in the dark over the sorry state of wait times in your system - ya think? Is that your measure on the American health disadvantage... the presence of a website?

Apparently such web sites pacify the entire nation of Canada. Like a misery scoreboard....which province is winning ?

but really, you're becoming (more) boring - do you have something new? Anything? Or will you simply continue to fixate on wait times (while ignoring your own country's), or on a minuscule number of out-of-country treatments (while ignoring your own country's hugely, massively, disproportionate number of same)... while ignoring, while deflecting from the OP theme; i.e., the American Health Disadvantage? Do you have anything new?

I agree...this vein is played out. It has been grand fun. And I can remain satisfied that some Canadians know where to go when their asses are on the line....to the "disadvantaged" United States of America.

Edited January 31, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

I agree...this vein is played out. It has been grand fun. And I can remain satisfied that some Canadians know where to go when their asses are on the line....to the "disadvantaged" United States of America.

so... nothing new then, hey? Oh wait, "satisfaction" was your driver? Is that why you're out in the Mayo Clinic parking lot everyday... looking for those license plates? (Do you have any numbers for this? Why... I might take a liking to drive my own satisfaction in also showing you the minuscule number these would account for... much like busting your OOC bubble!). Ya'll come back now! Ya hear?

[bush_cheney2004]

No...I think we covered it all for now. But I will be here as long as you need me...bum knee or not. So will America !

[PIK]

2011 statistics rank the U.S. at #1 in a few categories.....Canada ranks #1 in zero categories.

Didn't a member here say that Canadians are still wiping poop on fecal occult test cards for colon cancer screening, while Americans are routinely getting colonoscopies with concurrent polyp removal ?

I just had that done in canada ,thank you. And every canadian is covered, many americans have nothing. And canadians do not go bankrupt for visiting a hospital. Edited January 31, 2013 by PIK

[Guest American Woman]

I just had that done in canada ,thank you. And every canadian is covered, many americans have nothing. And canadians do not go bankrupt for visiting a hospital.

I don't know of any Americans who went bankrupt for "visiting a hospital" either, but Canadians cite medical expenses as a reason for filing bankruptcy, too; it's one of the top three reasons. Furthermore, Canadians file bankruptcy at the same rate Americans do. So go figure, eh?

[guyser]

The three leading causes of personal bankruptcy in Canada

The first one on the list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada is job loss, or reduced income in general. Loosing your job or having your overtime reduced, for example, can make it increasingly difficult for you to make your debt payments.

Faced with a job loss, one of your keys to survival is reducing your expenses as quickly as possible to free up cash and continue servicing your debts. This is of course easier said than done, since you cannot quickly reduce your rent or car payments, but remember that reducing other expenses, whenever possible, is often the key to avoiding bankruptcy.

Another one of leading contributors to personal bankruptcy in Canada is marriage separation or divorce. Approximately one third of all people filing personal bankruptcy in Canada are either separated or divorced at the time of filing.

It’s easy to see why separation and divorce can lead to financial problems. As a couple you only have to pay rent once, and you only have one phone bill, hydro bill, and you share most other expenses. Once you are separated, you are each paying your own bills, so your expenses increase, but your income stays the same.

If you have debts when you separate, your increased expenses may make it difficult to continue to service the debts.

The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America.

http://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada.htm

It appears that medical problems, not medical expenses is the issue in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

I just had that done in canada ,thank you. And every canadian is covered...

No, this is not always true. Any Canadian who ventures too far from the mothership for too long loses residency and insurance coverage. So much for "every Canadian" being covered. This is another reason that healthcare is not a right in Canada.

[guyser]

No, this is not always true. Any Canadian who ventures too far from the mothership for too long loses residency and insurance coverage. So much for "every Canadian" being covered. .

Since you are picking nits......what you wrote is not true either. Lots of Canucks are out of the country and covered the moment they land back in Canada.

My niece for one, she'll be gone 210 days , but covered the moment she steps off the plane.

Edited January 31, 2013 by guyser

[bush_cheney2004]

Since you are picking nits......what you wrote is not true either. Lots of Canucks are out of the country and covered the moment they land back in Canada.

While many others are not covered until they establish residency. Just sayin'....

My niece for one, she'll be gone 210 days , but covered the moment she steps off the plane.

You mean like Michael Ignatieff ?

[Pliny]

Since you are picking nits......what you wrote is not true either. Lots of Canucks are out of the country and covered the moment they land back in Canada.

My niece for one, she'll be gone 210 days , but covered the moment she steps off the plane.

Because they maintain a Canadian address of course.

[waldo]

Because they maintain a Canadian address of course.

what is required is not to exceed your respective province's maximum days out-of-province/country allowance... most provinces require that one be physically present for at least '6 months + 1 day', (typically 183 days in most years), in a 12 month period. Ontario allows up to a 212 days absence.

[waldo]

it's unfortunate a recent MLW status update simply showcased another bout of ODS (ObamaDerangementSyndrome)... instead, the update could have been made, with an accompanying attempt to support it, in this thread, thereby presenting an opportunity to offer (some) Canadians an appreciation of just how costly U.S. health care is for American individuals and families... to show just how much is paid directly by Americans for their healthcare. Let me take the liberty to present that recent MLW status update:

The IRS estimates that the cheapest Obamacare plan for a family of 4 will be $20,000 dollars per year. Heckuva job with that "affordable" care act Barry. #Fail

as it turns out, this MLW status update is one that is being wildly distributed across numerous 'right-wing/Conservative' websites, with the 'story' originating here: it's become just another opportunity for rabid Obamacare bashing! I certainly won't presume to be any kind of expert on the costs of American health care... I expect the claimed American nit pickers active in this thread will take equal picking interest and assist in providing (more) informative comment.

as for the status update itself: the IRS estimate mentioned was simply an exercise to provide a reference point for the penalty tax calculation assessed to an eligible American family that chooses not to partake in the mandated Obamacare. It has no bearing on the actual cost 'affordability' aspect of the insurance. The affordable attachment to Obamacare (i.e., The Affordable Care Act), lies in tax breaks and subsidies that help eligible Americans pay for Obamacare... but don't let that get in the way of someone with a fevered dose of ODS!

in this particular case, the Obamacare $20,000 dollar per year cost estimate (before tax breaks and subsidies) is for a family of four without workplace insurance (where an employer pays the majority of costs). It also appears to be a representative cost as compared to figures I've read for current average U.S. healthcare costs.

as an example, the following graphic shows 2012 costs for a family of four with workplace coverage, showing the cost distribution between employer/employee... along with showing just how much costs have increased in the last decade. It appears these types of workplace insurance policies can also carry significant deductible costs for the year, where lower premiums are balanced against higher deductible costs... a deductible of $5000 appears to be somewhat 'typical'. One example I noted for a family with workplace coverage had the employer paying ~19,000 for the year, the employee's contribution was ~ 1500 for the year + the employee also had to pay a $5000 deductible. I also note that, typically, dental coverage is separate from these plans with family costs ~ $100 per month. What I'm not clear on is just what these types of health insurance plans cover. It was quite a revelation to read that "many" Americans forego personal healthcare coverage in favour of a "pay as they go" approach in combination with a so-called "catastrophic" policy (with deductibles, typically, at $15,000).

another recent reference: Family health care costs to exceed $20,000 this year

2012: The cost to cover the typical family of four under an employer plan is expected to top $20,000 on health care this year, up more than 7% from last year, according to early projections by independent actuarial and health care consulting firm Milliman Inc. In 2002, the cost was just $9,235, the firm said.

The projected increase marks the fifth year in a row that health care costs will rise between 7% and 8% annually.

as I said, I have no understanding as to what is included... and excluded... within a typical U.S. healthcare insurance policy. I do know that in my province (I believe all provinces now) no resident pays any premium cost for healthcare coverage. On a personal note I've had past employer based plans where I've contributed ~$50-to-$75 dollars a month for so-called extended healthcare coverage... extended beyond basic provincial coverage to include such things as:

- Hospital care: semi-private hospital room

- Prescription drugs: medication prescribed by a doctor

- Medical services and equipment: private duty nursing, ambulances, crutches, hearing aids, etc.

- Paramedical services: chiropractors, naturopaths, podiatrists, etc.

- Medi-Passport: out-of-province emergency travel assistance

- Vision care: eyeglasses and contact lenses

[waldo]

a few updates on that comparative American health disadvantage:

further to:

- this thread's OP study (from the U.S. National Research Council and the U.S. Institute of Medicine... as published in the prestigious National Academies Press); the study as written by Americans… for Americans… the study that has principal designs on American introspection of the designated “American health disadvantage”, relative to the rest of the world’s high-income countries. Certainly, a part of that American introspection calls for consideration on the influence of the American health care system in contributing to this American health disadvantage. We certainly didn't see any of that introspection coming forward from those MLW members within this thread who claim to be Americans… those who chose instead to completely ignore the study… to wildly deflect away from the study findings. Those who chose, instead, to derail this thread away from its intended focus on comparative health analysis, refusing to even acknowledge the study findings; findings that show that:

- the comparative American health disadvantage continues to grow over a now 3 decades+ period of time

- the American health disadvantage is pervasive affecting all American age groups regardless of income, as observed for multiple diseases, biological and behavioural risk factors, and injuries. Detailed study extracts showing this comparative American health disadvantage were offered within this thread… offered… and ignored.

- an earlier study to the OP study, one subsequently offered in this thread (from the U.S. Commonwealth Fund, comparing the U.S. health system with those in other industrialized nations... as related within these supplied source references:

- U.S. scores dead last again in healthcare study

- U.S. Spends The Most On Health Care, Yet Gets Least

- U.S. health care system: Worst in the world?

as published in JAMA (the Journal of the American Medical Association) a relatively new study suggesting that U.S. health is "mediocre" compared to other wealthy countries:

High costs with mediocre population health outcomes at the national level are compounded by marked disparities across communities, socioeconomic groups, and race and ethnicity groups

.

.

per the study's summation findings: From 1990 to 2010, the United States made substantial progress in improving health. Life expectancy at birth and healthy life expectancy increased, all-cause death rates at all ages decreased, and age-specific rates of years lived with disability remained stable. However, morbidity and chronic disability now account for nearly half of the US health burden, and improvements in population health in the United States have not kept pace with advances in population health in other wealthy nations.

[waldo]

copying a recent post (that was unrelated to its thread)... that bears more relation to this thread, given the wait-time deflection used to avoid actually discussing the content/merit of the OP study:

Like a broken record

notwithstanding the U.S. spends the most and has one of the worst overall healthcare systems returns, that broken record, as I'm aware, has never been formally substantiated on MLW. As in just what is the measured reference behind the broken record? I can certainly find info detailing U.S. appointment times for specialists/family physicians... appointments only, not actual wait times for surgery. The OECD speaks to the difficulty in comparative harmonizing wait times between countries, but points to Canada's methodology/accounting/tracking as a model for other countries to follow... a point that speaks to the comprehensive nature of how Canada monitors/publishes wait times. I question whether there is a comprehensive accounting of U.S. surgical wait times (again, surgery wait time, not the time for an initial consultation appointment)... in that regard, the latest OECD report I referenced doesn't include the U.S. among the 13 representative OECD countries reported on. And, of course, key to the broken record is a focus on elective surgery... something that conveniently somewhat negates the inherent prioritization within Canadian healthcare. Equally, of course, the broken record ignores U.S. categorizations. like the ~50 million Americans on Medicaid... where, as I read, it is more difficult for those on Medicaid to even find doctors willing to see them, to operate on them... which begs the question around that categorization facet: just what are the U.S. surgery wait times for those ~50 million Americans on Medicaid, versus Medicare, versus employer insured, etc.? Again... a broken record without qualification!

[eyeball]

The U.S., by contrast, was last in every category except quality, where it was second to last, squeaking in ahead of Canada.

Given the higher rate of obesity in the US it was probably hospital food.that dragged Canada down.

Everything was first class during my stay in a hospital last year, everything but the food that is. It ranged between being barely palatable most of the time and downright disgusting a few of the times and enjoyable only two or three times during a two week stay. I'm serious it was really really bad I ordered in many times. I'll never forget arriving back at the ward one dinner time to see some poor guy retching over his plate and I could hear someone hollering wtf from down the hall.

I bet prisoners probably eat better, otherwise there'd be riots every other day.

[bush_cheney2004]

Bad food is just one of the reasons to leave Canada for better choices:

"One of the unfortunate realities of Canada's monopolistic health care system is that some people feel they have no choice but to seek the care they need outside the country," Esmail and Bacchus Barua wrote in an op-ed published last month in a couple of Canadian newspapers. "And who can blame them?"

Those who leave Canada for treatment do so for a number of reasons, but they are all related to the country's government-run health care system.

Some leave due to Canada's long and sometimes deadly waiting periods. Others are treated outside the country because there is "a lack of available resources or the fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided in their home jurisdiction,

Edited June 9, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Bad food is just one of the reasons to leave Canada for better choices:

"One of the unfortunate realities of Canada's monopolistic health care system is that some people feel they have no choice but to seek the care they need outside the country," Esmail and Bacchus Barua wrote in an op-ed published last month in a couple of Canadian newspapers. "And who can blame them?"

Those who leave Canada for treatment do so for a number of reasons, but they are all related to the country's government-run health care system.

Some leave due to Canada's long and sometimes deadly waiting periods. Others are treated outside the country because there is "a lack of available resources or the fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided in their home jurisdiction,

And yet still in last place.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadians still travel to the "dead last" U.S. health care system because of stupid long wait times. I have asked for years, but there is no answer...what are Canadians waiting for ?

Tampa, Fla. — Already a destination for its beaches, palm trees and Disney parks, Florida can now add medical tourism to its list of attractions as more and more Canadians visit for surgery.

Long wait times are increasingly driving patients south, including two Albertans who underwent surgery on the same day last month, and commiserated about feeling abandoned by an ailing system back home.

Their Florida surgeon has seen the number of Canadian patients grow by a staggering 800 per cent in the past decade. Medical tourism has become big business for the sunny southern state, which is poised to spend $5 million next year in bid to lure more people for specialized procedures.

...“The Canadian medical system is premised on, it will treat you when there is a problem. But the whole idea of preventing downstream problems isn’t part of that model. It was a system built . . . out of treating acute illness,” says Emery.

“We wait for the disasters to happen before stopping them.”

Indeed. Florida is banking on it.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Long+Canadian+wait+times+send+patients+south+surgery+Video/9702357/story.html

Edited June 9, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Canadians still travel to the "dead last" U.S. health care system because of stupid long wait times. I have asked for years, but there is no answer...what are Canadians waiting for ?

Tampa, Fla. — Already a destination for its beaches, palm trees and Disney parks, Florida can now add medical tourism to its list of attractions as more and more Canadians visit for surgery.

Long wait times are increasingly driving patients south, including two Albertans who underwent surgery on the same day last month, and commiserated about feeling abandoned by an ailing system back home.

Their Florida surgeon has seen the number of Canadian patients grow by a staggering 800 per cent in the past decade. Medical tourism has become big business for the sunny southern state, which is poised to spend $5 million next year in bid to lure more people for specialized procedures.

...“The Canadian medical system is premised on, it will treat you when there is a problem. But the whole idea of preventing downstream problems isn’t part of that model. It was a system built . . . out of treating acute illness,” says Emery.

“We wait for the disasters to happen before stopping them.”

Indeed. Florida is banking on it.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Long+Canadian+wait+times+send+patients+south+surgery+Video/9702357/story.html

Yep and I put 800 % more gas in my car this morning. Does that impress you? One particular failure of US systems is they are constantly trying to walk away from their "customers" because they must have had a pre-existing condition. That don't work in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

One of my personal favorites....

"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care" - Supreme Court of Canada