US dead last in health care

[guyser]

Meaning you have and continue to lose some, correct ? Why ?

Not correct, ergo your BS posting.

People are free to move?

American Drs come work here just the same way. They train here, some stay here, some then go home.

Not hard to see.

So you are saying it is actually desirable for Canadian healthcare professionals to leave for the U.S. and come back?

This has nothing to do with what I posted, ergo the stupid part of your posts. Ya gots nothing, say nothing. Not hard you know.

Contrary views are not necessarily stupid, but I am sensitive to your feelings and national pride, that's why I keep at this !

FFS, you were shown the truth, contrary to the truth is not a view as you woulld like . Its ignorance and stupidity.

"Wait times" are a direct outgrowth of severe rationing and resulting political conflagration in Canada post funding cuts. Instead of timely care, Canadians got a scoreboard for wait times instead. For some procedures, wait times are actually worse !!

No wait time metrics are a direct growth of ignorance and stupidity , which goes well with the huge sums of money spent with piss poor results the final tally. Guess which system.....and it begins with a vowel

Can anybody please tell me....what are you waiting for? Anybody?

Easy, triage system work well that way.

Ask the 45 million around you what they are waiting for. Ah....not waiting, they cant afford shite thus go uninsured.

ask the couple million who go out of your country for travel meds.Afterall, you tout it as the best all day and everyday

Edited January 28, 2013 by guyser

[WWWTT]

For many emigres, Canada is just a stepping stone to their real goal...the US of A. Metric that......

You have nothing left but bitterness,as reflected by this post.

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

You have nothing left but bitterness,as reflected by this post.

Oh no, I have plenty more than that left. The rabid reactions on display here (by some) to any criticism of Canada's "third rail" healthcare is plain to see, yet the very same people will define and protect a healthcare defined identity and "superiority" by doing exactly the same thing (with critical comparisons of the U.S.). How dare some smart ass 'Merkin point out the shortcomings, even if they are well known in Canada.

As for emigres hop-scotching Canada to get to the U.S., I have met many of them myself, hailing from Guyana to Pakistan. First step is to get into Canada, then unify the family, and then go to the country where most the television comes from. (Apparently hockey is not big in Guyana or Pakistan.)

There are threads here lamenting the hordes of such Convenient Canadians only checking in for the benefits.

[bush_cheney2004]

People are free to move?

American Drs come work here just the same way. They train here, some stay here, some then go home.

Not hard to see.

Then why put up such a fuss ? We agree that healthcare professionals should be free to practice wherever they wish. For many years, more Canadians chose to go to the USA.

This has nothing to do with what I posted, ergo the stupid part of your posts. Ya gots nothing, say nothing. Not hard you know.

Sir, it's not just about you...I have to satisfy all of my fans.

FFS, you were shown the truth, contrary to the truth is not a view as you woulld like . Its ignorance and stupidity.

Go take the Philosophy Test in another thread and reveal your "truth" tension.

No wait time metrics are a direct growth of ignorance and stupidity , which goes well with the huge sums of money spent with piss poor results the final tally. Guess which system.....and it begins with a vowel

Not sure what you are on about here...just more lashing out at valid criticism and Canadian Supreme Court rulings.

Easy, triage system work well that way.

Triage should not be the standard determinant for all medical encounters....this implies scarcity by design.

Ask the 45 million around you what they are waiting for. Ah....not waiting, they cant afford shite thus go uninsured.

But I asked you first...why is there so much waiting ?

ask the couple million who go out of your country for travel meds.Afterall, you tout it as the best all day and everyday

Correct...it is the best for choices, as there is no monopoly on government insured procedures or insurance products. Canadians have to face the real world outside of this monopoly for pharma, dental, optometry, etc. Must be a shock, huh ?

Edited January 29, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

The rabid reactions on display here (by some) to any criticism of Canada's "third rail" healthcare is plain to see, yet the very same people will define and protect a healthcare defined identity and "superiority" by doing exactly the same thing (with critical comparisons of the U.S.). How dare some smart ass 'Merkin point out the shortcomings, even if they are well known in Canada.

the only rabid reaction on display is your incessant barking, deflection and avoid-at-all-costs critical comment on your failed health care 'systems' and comparative health disadvantage.

[bush_cheney2004]

[/size]the only rabid reaction on display is your incessant barking, deflection and avoid-at-all-costs critical comment on your failed health care 'systems' and comparative health disadvantage.

Make up your mind...is it "failed" healthcare or health ? Compared to what.....lowly ranked Canada, which is more than happy to avail itself of "failed" excess American capacity for many procedures ? How do you reconcile this fact ?

[waldo]

Then why put up such a fuss ? We agree that healthcare professionals should be free to practice wherever they wish. For many years, more Canadians chose to go to the USA.

it's always amusing that when you're called out on your clown-show, when you're proven wrong, you back-peddle with a "we agree" summation!

Correct...it is the best for choices, as there is no monopoly on government insured procedures or insurance products. Canadians have to face the real world outside of this monopoly for pharma, dental, optometryl, etc. Must be a shock, huh ?

again, your glaring double-standard! In your misplaced reality, you equate the minuscule number of Canadians utilizing the U.S. for health care/service to the hundreds of thousands (750,000 in 2007) Americans traveling outside your country for healthcare... with a projection of 6 million Americans (in 2013) traveling outside your country for healthcare. Of course, you completely ignore the reasons for Americans seeking healthcare abroad... the most negative reflections those reasons carry; like: Americans without healthcare seeking lower costs, Americans with limited/constraining health insurance seeking care abroad, Americans denied coverage by health insurers (e.g. pre-existing conditions), Americans 'brokered'/sponsored by their own insurance companies to undergo treatment outside your country as a cost saving measure. Yes, your self-serving, hypocritical double-standard is on full display here!

[bush_cheney2004]

it's always amusing that when you're called out on your clown-show, when you're proven wrong, you back-peddle with a "we agree" summation!

Try to keep up....agreement was met on the choice of health care professionals to peddle their labour wherever they wish....but not with you.

again, your glaring double-standard! In your misplaced reality, you equate the minuscule number of Canadians utilizing the U.S. for health care/service to the hundreds of thousands (750,000 in 2007) Americans traveling outside your country for healthcare...

For the nth time, the U.S. has no universal access mandate or obligation to provide guaranteed health care, while Canadians pay boucoup taxes for long wait times. Hell, you think it is a constitutional right !

See the difference ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada’s healthcare quality comes dead-last in global survey

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – At one time, other countries would point to Canada as an example of how a healthcare system should be run. But the latest cover story in

Maclean’s magazine

says our country now ranks close to the bottom.

Ken McQueen with Maclean’s tells us we always criticize our neighbours to the south, but on a global scale, Canada’s

healthcare system

needs a booster shot. “We console ourselves in the fact that it’s substantially better, fair, and more accessible than our American neighbours. But really, when you compare it to places like the Netherlands and the UK, we really don’t fare all that well.”

http://www2.macleans...-care-delusion/

It’s a Canadian conceit that ours is one of the best public health care systems in the world, a defining characteristic of nationhood; something that separates us from the Americans. In a poll by Angus Reid Public Opinion in June, 69 per cent of Canadians said they’re proud of the health care system, edging out the state of Canadian democracy, multiculturalism and bilingualism.

Yet the reality, based on any number of international comparisons, shows that pride in a supposedly world-beating standard of care is often misplaced, an “illusion,” as Liberal MP and medical doctor Keith Martin puts it. The sorry state of the nation’s emergency wards is just one indicator of trouble today and trouble to come. ERs are just “the canary in the coal mine,” says Dr. John Ross, Nova Scotia’s adviser on emergency care.

Edited January 29, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

Try to keep up....agreement was met on the choice of health care professionals to peddle their labour wherever they wish....but not with you.

agreement was met!!! Ya, ya... only after you were called out and shown to be wrong. Then, all of a sudden, you do a 180 and declare, "we're in agreement"!

For the nth time, the U.S. has no universal access mandate or obligation to provide guaranteed health care, while Canadians pay boucoup taxes for long wait times. Hell, you think it is a constitutional right !

See the difference ?

yes, I definitely see the difference... I see your self-serving, hypocritical double-standards on display - ad nauseum!

your country has your own long wait time concerns; I've pointed out the significant long wait times in your largest cities - excessive waits for basic appointments with general practitioners or initial consults with specialists (not surgeries, just the initial consult). Of course, you completely ignore critical comment/review on your own country wait times. I've pointed out the excessive wait times and outright service denial Americans on your Medicaid program are subject to... and you just ignore it.

...the "point" is that health care is like any other business, not some commie entitlement that you want to make it. Lower prices for faster/better care in the USA attracts Canadians who don't want to suffer patriotically in the collectivist queue.

commie entitlement? Really? What do you call a system... a country... that negatively impacts the medical care for 70 million low(er) income Americans with limited/constrained Medicaid coverage... that negatively impacts the health of another 65 million Americans without insurance coverage... that causes hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Americans to yearly seek medical care outside the U.S.? What do you call that type of system... that type of country? Is that a system... a country... just doing "business"? Given this threads OP reference to the 'American health disadvantage', how's business doing? You know, the "business" your country significantly spends more money on than any other country. What's the ROI for that failed business, hey?

[waldo]

Canada’s healthcare quality comes dead-last in global survey

no, that article presents an incorrect summation - in fact, in that 'survey', the United States is the "dead last" winner! Far be it for anyone here to expect you to check the actual study, hey? Oh wait, that's just you being consistent, right? Why would you bother confirming the study... you don't want anything to do with studies, most particularly this threads OP referenced study that shows the "dead last" winning position the United States holds in a comparative "health disadvantage" with other high income countries. The U.S., "dead last" while spending 2-to-3 times as much on healthcare as other countries reviewed!

the study/survey you incorrectly presented:

[Pliny]

Canada’s healthcare quality comes dead-last in global survey

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – At one time, other countries would point to Canada as an example of how a healthcare system should be run. But the latest cover story in

Maclean’s magazine

says our country now ranks close to the bottom.

The hue and cry is "Don't touch our healthcare!" Is that rational? I suppose it is if you make your living in the medical profession and you are worried cuts may affect your income. The purpose - quality service and universal accessibility, however is lost as occurs with most ideologically socialist driven schemes, the purpose degrades into sustaining the system.

[waldo]

The hue and cry is "Don't touch our healthcare!" Is that rational?

as shown in the preceding post to yours, the quote you're replying to presents a false ranking summation - it is the U.S. that is the "dead last" winner in the referenced study.

as for your 'is it rational' questioning, it most certainly is rational if the intent is to counter attempts to usurp the underlying principles of the Canada Health Act.

The purpose - quality service and universal accessibility, however is lost as occurs with most ideologically socialist driven schemes, the purpose degrades into sustaining the system.

no - you need look no further than the post immediately preceding yours (that I'm quoting) and its referenced study, or this threads OP referenced study... in both study cases, all countries being reviewed are OECD countries. There are only 3 OECD countries that are classified (by the OECD) as not having universal (or 'near' universal) health coverage for its citizens... those 3 countries: the United States, Mexico and Turkey. Clearly, Canada has room for improvement in particular categorizations (relative to other universal health care countries)... however, your blanket statement on quality is false when measured across all other countries with universality (in spite of your juvenile labeling of "ideologically socialist driven"). Most pointedly, your blanket statement on quality holds no weight when measured against the private delivery standard-bearer, the United States!!!

Edited January 29, 2013 by waldo

[bush_cheney2004]

agreement was met!!! Ya, ya... only after you were called out and shown to be wrong. Then, all of a sudden, you do a 180 and declare, "we're in agreement"!

We are in agreement....Canadian health care professionals have chosen to leave Canada for better opportunities in the USA's "failed system" because the pay is better !

yes, I definitely see the difference... I see your self-serving, hypocritical double-standards on display - ad nauseum!

Sorry if CommieCare is so expensive and poorly ranked...try to do better instead of seeking solace in the "failed" American system.

your country has your own long wait time concerns; I've pointed out the significant long wait times in your largest cities

But where are the wait time web sites ? Where can I click on the human torso to find out how long to get a funny bone removed ?

....Of course, you completely ignore critical comment/review on your own country wait times. I've pointed out the excessive wait times and outright service denial Americans on your Medicaid program are subject to... and you just ignore it.

There is no U.S. mandate for universal access or care as in Canada, but still the U.S. has much shorter wait times at all levels. It gets so bad in some provinces, the patients are sent to the United States !! You have created this massive failure out of the delusional expectation that health care is a human right.

[bush_cheney2004]

the study/survey you incorrectly presented:

Sorry, but Maclean's clearly stated that Canada was "dead last" in two categories. FYI, this source is Canadian.

I like the mapleleaf toe tag !!

[bush_cheney2004]

The hue and cry is "Don't touch our healthcare!" Is that rational? I suppose it is if you make your living in the medical profession and you are worried cuts may affect your income. The purpose - quality service and universal accessibility, however is lost as occurs with most ideologically socialist driven schemes, the purpose degrades into sustaining the system.

Agreed...it is not rational....and I continue to be fascinated by the political resistance to any changes that might improve healthcare in Canada, regardless of what the Americans are doing. Obviously the U.S. has just engaged such a battle, and right or wrong, changes were made (soundly rejecting a single payer universal system). Some Canadians (as we can see here) are so deep in their battle trenches and comparisons to the U.S., they fail to see the larger picture, prolonging the patriotic wait time pain for fear of the private mix that helps other nations do far better.

[Pliny]

Obviously the U.S. has just engaged such a battle, and right or wrong, changes were made (soundly rejecting a single payer universal system).

Obamacare is designed to whittle away at your "system" until you can beat the Canadian system for mediocrity.

In my view, it doesn't bode well for America, good luck with it my friend.

[waldo]

We are in agreement....Canadian health care professionals have chosen to leave Canada for better opportunities in the USA's "failed system" because the pay is better !

beauty! Nice choice of words... now that MLW member, 'guyser', showed your initial claim to be wrong concerning the so-called 'brain drain', I am encouraged that you are now, at least in this instance, tempering your words for accuracy/fact.

Sorry if CommieCare is so expensive and poorly ranked...try to do better instead of seeking solace in the "failed" American system.

when repeatedly confronted with the fact that hundreds of thousands of Americans are forced to leave the U.S. for healthcare abroad (750,000 in 2007), you finally acknowledge it and claim, "it's all about Americans having choice"! Keep barking away about the minuscule number of Canadians that utilize the U.S. 'system'! Do you have any updated numbers yet? No? What are you waiting for?

But where are the wait time web sites ?

you know there are long/excessive wait times in the U.S. - you've been presented with several examples. Your lame-assed reply was the same as you've now just trotted forward again. Another MLW member suggested to you the reason was because your governments (federal/state) don't want to allow it's citizens to know/realize how long your wait times really are.

There is no U.S. mandate for universal access or care as in Canada, but still the U.S. has much shorter wait times at all levels. It gets so bad in some provinces, the patients are sent to the United States !! You have created this massive failure out of the delusional expectation that health care is a human right.

there is no, as you say "massive failure"... most particularly when compared to your countries "dead last" rankings. "Dead Last" in this threads OP referenced study... "dead last" in the latest study you, yourself, just brought forward. USA! USA! USA!

[waldo]

Sorry, but Maclean's clearly stated that Canada was "dead last" in two categories. FYI, this source is Canadian.

it, as you did, perpetuated an overall false ranking... and 'cherry picking' of sub-categories. It's an easy thing to do, right? After all, in that study, the study you brought forward, the U.S. was "dead last" in five sub-categories... "dead last" overall.

as for it being, as you say, a Canadian source, here's an easy googly throwing back 3 American sources trumpeting the study, the study you just brought forward:

-

U.S. scores dead last again in healthcare study

-

U.S. Spends The Most On Health Care, Yet Gets Least

-

U.S. health care system: Worst in the world?

see... anyone can play your game, hey?

[bush_cheney2004]

[/size]it, as you did, perpetuated an overall false ranking... and 'cherry picking' of sub-categories. It's an easy thing to do, right? After all, in that study, the study you brought forward, the U.S. was "dead last" in five sub-categories... "dead last" overall.

No, this was your rabid response to any criticism, even as it clearly stated the two categories in which Canada was "dead last" on the magazine cover. Your kneejerk defenses resist any such analysis with unfavourable outcomes.

You are a Dead Last Healthcare Denier !!

as for it being, as you say, a Canadian source, here's an easy googly throwing back 3 American sources trumpeting the study, the study you just brought forward:

Yes, I did bring it "forward", with no shame. Why do you recoil at such a report of the Canadian fail....reported by fellow Canadians ?

BTW, "googly" is American too....just sayin' !!

[waldo]

No, this was your rabid response to any criticism, even as it clearly stated the two categories in which Canada was "dead last" on the magazine cover. Your kneejerk defenses resist any such analysis with unfavourable outcomes.

so... presenting a factual accounting of the study is a... "rabid response"!! Clearly, you much prefer cherry-picking sub-categories and avoiding the overall ranking. Of course you do!

assorted MLW members, including myself (many times over) have spoken to recognizing areas for improvement within our system. You have not offered a single like comment in that regard concerning your country's healthcare system - not one! All you've done is deflect, ignore and throw back curt nothingness comment.

[waldo]

...and I continue to be fascinated by the political resistance to any changes that might improve healthcare in Canada, regardless of what the Americans are doing.

for your self-serving reasons, you continue to ignore statements made to you concerning changes intended to improve healthcare in Canada. You will continue to remain fascinated unless those changes equate to an "Americanization" of our healthcare system. Hold your fascination tightly and securely!

[waldo]

Obamacare is designed to whittle away at your "system" until you can beat the Canadian system for mediocrity.

In my view, it doesn't bode well for America, good luck with it my friend.

whittle away??? Oh... you mean, 'whittle away' at the American Gaps in Health Care Coverage? He continues to ignore previous comments concerning the realities of universality on healthcare... I'm sure he won't bite at your comment either - clearly, it doesn't fit his false narrative!

[bush_cheney2004]

[/size]so... presenting a factual accounting of the study is a... "rabid response"!! Clearly, you much prefer cherry-picking sub-categories and avoiding the overall ranking. Of course you do!

Why did you attack the integrity of the Maclean's cover and report ? It specifically listed the two areas in which Canada was "DEAD LAST".

Why are you a Dead Last Healthcare Denier (DLHD) ?

assorted MLW members, including myself (many times over) have spoken to recognizing areas for improvement within our system. You have not offered a single like comment in that regard concerning your country's healthcare system - not one! All you've done is deflect, ignore and throw back curt nothingness comment.

False on both counts, as you attempt to back pedal out of your self made trap. I have consistently cited other nations as having better systems for universal access and care (e.g. France). Nobody would choose Canada's approach based on current performance metrics.

Edited January 29, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

for your self-serving reasons, you continue to ignore statements made to you concerning changes intended to improve healthcare in Canada. You will continue to remain fascinated unless those changes equate to an "Americanization" of our healthcare system. Hold your fascination tightly and securely!

Oh Boy ! There it is....the dreaded "Americanization" of healthcare, even as Canadians are sent to the U.S. for care by the provinces. And you wonder why we laugh ?

Edited January 29, 2013 by bush_cheney2004