What if money didn't matter...

[GostHacked]

If money were no object.....happiness will be harder to find, I think. If you can acquire everything you want with a snap of your finger, life becomes too boring. It can also corrupt. Only the spiritual would keep me grounded.

If you are grounded in your spirituality, then money would not be needed and happiness would be obtained because of the spirituality. Money does not buy happiness, if you are of the mindset that it does, then you are not spiritual. Material things don't make you happy. Being around people of the same mind will make you happy.

SO....I'll be initiating and involved myself with special projects. Meaningful projects that of course would be to spread the Word of God, but also to help others....to help make the world a better place.

You can make the world a better place without even invoking or spreading the word of God.

[GostHacked]

Who chooses freely in the first place? When it comes to the concept of Free Will, I'm not sure if I even accept the compatiblist version, let alone any theory that we have a mind that acts independently of brain function. The whole marketing industry of advertising is based on grabbing the potential consumer at a gut, emotional level below conscious awareness, and putting an obsession in their heads. People can only deal with the pressures of conformity if they begin to understand how they are being manipulated in the first place!

You raise some good points there. Marketing and advertising exist to influence you to buy something you don't really need. Most consumers are not even aware that they are being manipulated and coerced in this fashion.

The marketing methods that are being tested are down right scary.

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/measurement/consumer-neuroscience.html

Neuroscience shows us that the decision to purchase something is often formed deep within the subconscious.

Consumer Neuroscience is the application of neuroscience (the study of the human brain and nervous system) to consumer research, in order to determine a consumer’s non-conscious response to brands, products, packaging, in-store marketing, advertising, and entertainment content.

What we measure

We leverage Nielsen NeuroFocus' ground-breaking consumer neuroscience methods to measure brainwave activity in real time, capturing purchase considerations at the moment they are formed in the brain. Through our consumer neuroscience metrics, we enable marketers and advertisers to better understand the effectiveness of advertising, branding, product development, and packaging across industries including consumer packaged goods, retail, media, and entertainment. We employ proven technologies to produce the most effective and reliable measurements for understanding consumers' deep subconscious responses to stimuli.

How we do it

Blending neurological testing with traditional research enables us to better understand consumer responses to a stimulus on all levels—conscious and non-conscious. We use brainwave measurements and eye-tracking to determine which specific elements of a brand, product, ad, package, or aisle design are most salient and compelling to the brain.

And people thought subliminal advertising went away. Nope, just got more sneaky and subliminal about it.

[WIP]

Hmm? The professional class is the middle class.

That's how it all began back in the middle ages, and how it has returned, now that the old aristocracy has almost succeeded in gutting the working middle class of factory workers, construction and skilled tradesmen.

As a sidenote, a quick glance at this so called "Fiscal Cliff" drama in the U.S. seems to indicate that the professional class is the only Democratic Party constituency that Obama bothered to try to protect. It's been noted previously, that he has never mentioned the 'poor' in any of his rhetoric, and now it looks like when he talks about the 'middle class,' he's referring to the professionals....who have unions btw....that's what professional associations are, after all!

So you're easily influenced by trying to keep up with the neighbors. Big deal. That's not some statement about society but about yourself only.

Don't try to slant my words to fit your libertarian BS. Like I said before, when I was in more competitive surroundings, I felt the unconscious need to strive for more material status symbols much more than I do now.....and that is a statement about society! Because we are social animals, and being selfish and materialistic has a recoil effect on those who spend their lives filling their heads with libertarian and objectivist BS.....even those who think they are the winners of the game!

It's one thing for teenagers and young people with few responsibilities to follow this nonsense, but people who don't grow out of the self-centered stage in life, usually live long enough to realize that their toys don't provide real meaning and satisfaction in life. Unfortunate that our politics and our new technologies are giving disproportionate emphasis on individualism.

[betsy]

You can make the world a better place without even invoking or spreading the word of God.

Like some atheists/secularists do.

But a Christian is commissioned to spread the Word of God. Our contentment and fulfillment at whatever circumstances we find ourselves in lies in our faith and trust in God.

Edited January 2, 2013 by betsy

[WIP]

You raise some good points there. Marketing and advertising exist to influence you to buy something you don't really need. Most consumers are not even aware that they are being manipulated and coerced in this fashion.

The marketing methods that are being tested are down right scary.

http://www.nielsen.c...uroscience.html

And people thought subliminal advertising went away. Nope, just got more sneaky and subliminal about it.

Yes, we can even see some of how the advertising world learned how to hone their skills of consumer manipulation in TV shows like the period piece drama - Mad Men - about that golden age of advertising in the late 50's and early 60's, when the Madison Ave. marketing firms started hiring psychologists as marketing consultants, and advertising started changing from trying to annoy the audience with catchy jingles and repeating the product name as often as possible in a 60 sec. ad. Advertising went from trying to assault the senses with a product, to attacking the subject's feelings of inadequacy in lifestyle ads that hardly even mention the product itself.

I first learned about subliminal manipulation when I picked up a paperback copy of Subliminal Seduction by Wilson Bryan Key, when I found it in with the 2 to $5.00 books on sale at a bookstore back in the 70's. The book was a bestseller when it was released, a few years earlier; and that in itself is something that you would not see today! Because, back then, the proliferation of right wing think tanks was only beginning....and they weren't armed with all of the hired propagandists they are stocked with today to go out and saturate the media with opposing or confusing rhetoric, every time they hear a message they don't like. It took at least a couple of years for the corporate world to mount their counter-attack.

What they could attack, were the weaknesses in Key's research and conclusions....first, that he had degrees in communications and journalism, which gave him a peripheral awareness of how advertising works; but he did not have advanced degrees in psychology or ever work directly in psychological research himself; and had to rely on a few trusted sources for their technical analysis of how the mind reacts to unconscious messaging. And even so; back at that time, in the 60's and early 70's, the effects of brainwashing and unconscious manipulation had been overstated by even many of the professionals. And in the media, this was still the era of where movies like "The Manchurian Candidate" - proposing that brainwashing could turn anyone into a programmed, involuntary assassin - were taken seriously. Now, it is more generally recognized that subconscious awareness can affect anxiety levels, but not direct the subject right to something like a product choice. So the advertiser will rely on attacking the subject's sense of self-worth, and presenting happy, self confident people with the product.

A lot of controversy and condemnation of Key's work by the ad industry, surrounded his emphasis on the use of embedded messages in ads. These embeds were everything from profanities to sex and death, airbrushed into print ads. An example would be that beer and liquor ads feature the stuff in a glass with ice cubes, that had to be painted on to the photos by a highly trained airbrush artist...since real ice melts to fast under the hot lights used for the scene. Key may not have even had any awareness of a phenomena called Paradolia - which arises from the pattern recognition programming in the visual cortices of the brain, and gives us an in-built predisposition to see faces (in particular) and animals, words etc. in a random pattern. It can even happen when looking at a blue sky. Also, some airbrush artists working for ad agencies, have admitted that they sometimes play games like paint in words and images into a scene just for kicks, and see if anyone can find them afterwards. I recall a story about one artist who had recently broken up with his girlfriend, writing "______ _______ is a whore" in a liquor ad he had been working on.

So, it's not a strong case to rely on embeds to prove that the marketing firms were deliberately manipulating consumers! But, that's not the only tools the advertisers were using. The consultants studied scenes for how test audiences reacted to other forms of manipulation, and in the years since Key wrote this book, there have been a number of published neurological studies using brain imaging to test the effects of subliminal messages. And it happens outside of advertising - as was shown a couple of years ago in a combined, coordinated study of U.S. and Iranian university students, who could be manipulated in the degree of acceptance of a terrorist attacker or the bombing of an enemy village depending on how two essays were worded.

I recall a specific case on daytime TV, where Wilson Bryan Key demolished a critic live on air, when he ambushed him with a large blow-up of a very popular Benson & Hedges cigarette ad of the time....that was framed around a scene of a staged bench-clearing brawl hockey fight near one of goal creases. Key showed that when you just hold the ad up normally, everything looks like a typical snapshot of a hockey fight....until he turned the picture on end, and you could clearly see that the goalie's stick did not have the usual COOPER logo on it, but said C A N C E R! This was too blatantly obvious to deny, and B&H changed the ad as soon as possible....again, indicating that they were aware that an artist had airbrushed out the original logo to insert the word - cancer into the scene. But, how does an image connecting a cigarette with death....and death from a primary cause of harm from smoking? You have to accept at least some part of what is known as Terror Management Theory for an answer to that question. Because the company, their advertising agency, and more specifically - their psychologists who had been used as a consultant, obviously believed in TMT, and if we go by the increase in the popularity of cigarettes with young people every time a new, larger warning label is put on a pack of cigarettes, we can only conclude that TMT explains a lot about our psychological predispositions and our culture as well.

Where I differ from Wilson Bryan Key also, is that he was centrally focused on media and advertising, as the cause of growing neuroses, and unhappiness in the general population (consider that this was during a time of growing material prosperity) and the increase in impulsive decision-making by consumers. I would say that marketing is a big part of how we have changed over recent decades; but other factors, like the increasingly competitive hierarchies arising from growing inequality and the introduction of television and later - computers, cell phones, tablets...pretty much every new personal technology has further increased the general population's sense of isolation and decreased ability to cooperate for common purpose.

[GostHacked]

Like some atheists/secularists do.

But a Christian is commissioned to spread the Word of God. Our contentment and fulfillment at whatever circumstances we find ourselves in lies in our faith and trust in God.

I have to put my faith in man, because man is what I deal with on a day to day basis here on Earth. But since we see how God's words are somewhat hypocritical to out right contradictory , it's hard to know exactly what the real word of God is. .. since it was translated (many times) by man.

Edited January 2, 2013 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

WIP Great freakin post! Some of the best stuff I have read on this site to date!

Now if only people can understand how they are being manipulated through advertising. You can see it works equally well when it comes to delivering the news to the masses. Using the same techniques much of what we call the MSM does the same things in order to convey a message that feels like a consensus was reached. Or to make you believe outright lies. The subliminal messages or how an article is worded can portray a completely different message than was originally intended.

Here is another think. Tell people that they are being purposefully manipulated and they will tell you that you are crazy.

Reminds me of Edward Bernays in some fashion. The ability to manipulate and influence group think on a large scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Edward Louis Bernays (November 22, 1891 – March 9, 1995) was an Austrian-American pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations".^[1] He combined the ideas of Gustave Le Bon and Wilfred Trotter on crowd psychology with the psychoanalytical ideas of his uncle, Sigmund Freud.

[WIP]

I have to put my faith in man, because man is what I deal with on a day to day basis here on Earth. But since we see how God's words are somewhat hypocritical to out right contradictory , it's hard to know exactly what the real word of God is. .. since it was translated (many times) by man.

First, I'm glad you got something out of my look at media manipulation. On this issue, my beef isn't with Christians who are informed by faith; it's that today's rightwing Christians have turned the Bible and JudeoChristian heritage on its head, with the inversion of 'blessed are the poor' to blessed are the rich! The kind of Christian teaching that has come out of American evangelical circles after the time of men like William Jennings Bryant, is almost the exact opposite message that he championed when he was a populist advocate for farmers and factory workers against the rich and powerful during the years when populists took control of the Democratic Party and made some reforms like busting up monopolies and crooked banks. In today's Prosperity Gospel - tinged evangelical message, Jesus must have said 'blessed are the rich, for they are self-starting job creators who have gained their wealth through the blessings of the Lord, as a reward for their talent and hard work!' I haven't seen it; but it must be in some new translations of the Bible being used these days!

[Bonam]

That's how it all began back in the middle ages, and how it has returned, now that the old aristocracy has almost succeeded in gutting the working middle class of factory workers, construction and skilled tradesmen.

Skilled tradesman are often paid as much if not more than professionals. Factory work has largely disappeared to automation and outsourcing.

As a sidenote, a quick glance at this so called "Fiscal Cliff" drama in the U.S. seems to indicate that the professional class is the only Democratic Party constituency that Obama bothered to try to protect. It's been noted previously, that he has never mentioned the 'poor' in any of his rhetoric, and now it looks like when he talks about the 'middle class,' he's referring to the professionals....who have unions btw....that's what professional associations are, after all!

Professional associations are not unions, not that that has much relevance in this thread. And America has never been about "protecting" the poor, but rather about providing a place of opportunity where the poor, if they are able and determined enough, can work themselves out of their poverty. I don't know why anyone would want to "protect" the poor to begin with. Not to mention the definition of what "poor" is has changed a lot over the last century. It used to mean not being able to get food, shelter, and clean water regularly. Today, the vast majority of those considered "poor" in the Western world do have access to these things, and many others besides.

Don't try to slant my words to fit your libertarian BS. Like I said before, when I was in more competitive surroundings, I felt the unconscious need to strive for more material stats symbols much more than I do now.....and that is a statement about society!

Nope, it's completely and unambiguously a statement about yourself and yourself only. When YOU lived in those surroundings, YOU felt the need. You. Not somebody else, not society, you. Others may feel that way also, but your personal feelings say nothing about that. I for one do not feel the need to compare myself with my neighbors in regards to our material possessions.

It's one thing for teenagers and young people with few responsibilities to follow this nonsense, but people who don't grow out of the self-centered stage in life, usually live long enough to realize that their toys don't provide real meaning and satisfaction in life.

Yes, many of them go after the meaningful things in life rather than spending time whining about how society isn't redistributing empty material things around sufficiently for their liking.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Bonam

[Sleipnir]

What would you like to do if money were no object? How would you really enjoy spending your life?

Get a small cottage in the mountain and enjoy what nature has to offer, along with WiFi of course

Edited January 3, 2013 by Sleipnir

[August1991]

The decline in real incomes is forcing some of those trends in the other direction; such as young people leaving home at a later age, and sharing accommodations because they often can't afford to rent their own apartments.

In the past, many people lived under one roof. Nowadays, people are richer and free to choose. Some divorce, others move out. WIP, your complaint is a rich-man's worry, it's a champagne problem.

Also, numbers such as the ones I pulled up, would seem to indicate that incomes had risen substantially in the 80's, while in fact, most of the gains in household income were due to women having no choice other than to provide a second income....

"No choice... " WTF?

Sorry, your wife had the choice to stay at home, or earn a second income. She was free to choose, and she chose.

Who chooses freely in the first place?

WIP, you (and your wife) seem capable of informed choices. Why do you believe that other human beings are incapable?

-----

Some people smoke cigarettes. Other people don't. Why do "Leftists" believe that this choice is based on "corporate advertising"?

IOW, if "corporate advertising" can change human behaviour so easily, then why doesn't the Ministry of Education hire Madison Avenue to make children do their homework? Or why not use advertising executives to operate our penitentiaries and make criminals honest?

Edited January 3, 2013 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

IOW, if "corporate advertising" can change human behaviour so easily, then why doesn't the Ministry of Education hire Madison Avenue to make children do their homework? Or why not use advertising executives to operate our penitentiaries and make criminals honest?

News Flash -> advertising works. I don't feel it's correct to equate it to brainwashing, but it does work and Governments indeed DO spend a lot of money on it. They don't advertise to make children to their homework, it's true. I guess unfinished homework isn't a big priority right now.

[GostHacked]

News Flash -> advertising works. I don't feel it's correct to equate it to brainwashing, but it does work and Governments indeed DO spend a lot of money on it. They don't advertise to make children to their homework, it's true. I guess unfinished homework isn't a big priority right now.

Brainwashing is a good part of it. How else would one buy things they don't need nor do they have money for? If that is not brainwashing I don't know what is. And on the government level it is called 'Public Relations', which is propaganda. And we know propaganda is used to brainwash or coerce the public into a certain line of thinking.

There is a whole psychological aspect to advertising and public relations. Depending on the words you use you can create a different scene or even completely marginalize a certain item. Shell shock .. is now Post traumatic stress disorder, which does not really tell you what they are traumatically stressed from.

Now for advertising and brainwashing, think of how many times a certain commercial is played when watching a show. Pay attention to the visuals, the audio and how it is all put together. The repetition of a certain line, or a nice little jungle that is stuck in your head.

And all this so the company can make money by coercing you into buying something you did not need or want. Sure that is not for all cases, but if you wonder why many are so deep in debt because they have this need/desire to keep up with the Jones' without having the income to pay for it all.

Try shutting off the TV and radio for a week then come back to it and see if you notice something different.

[Michael Hardner]

Try shutting off the TV and radio for a week then come back to it and see if you notice something different.

Yes, I have done. I don't notice much difference but yet it does work overall. To call it brainwashing is a bit much, is my point, as you can't convince people to change their minds on hard held opinions. But mushy opinions and information form a void that can be filled with repeated messages.

[GostHacked]

Yes, I have done. I don't notice much difference but yet it does work overall. To call it brainwashing is a bit much, is my point, as you can't convince people to change their minds on hard held opinions. But mushy opinions and information form a void that can be filled with repeated messages.

Guess where most of their opinions and information comes from and how most people end up making their choices and how the develop their opinions.

[Michael Hardner]

Guess where most of their opinions and information comes from and how most people end up making their choices and how the develop their opinions.

Could you have YOUR opinions on the New World Order, whom to vote for and so on changed by a TV ad ? If they were strongly held opinions ? LIkely you would say no, and it would likely be true but as I said some are changeable some are not.

[Mighty AC]

I don't buy into to this ads control us, mumbo jumbo. We're not as materialistic as people think. Hey "Life's Good", it is time to "Think Different", "Save Money and Live Better"! Forget ads, "Success is a Mind Game", so "Challenge Everything". Remember, "Your Vision is Our Future", so "Have It Your Way" and "Reach Out And Touch Someone". In short, "When There Is No Tomorrow", "Just Do It", "Because You're Worth It".

http://www.tripwirem...ve-slogans.html

[WIP]

News Flash -> advertising works. I don't feel it's correct to equate it to brainwashing,

I thought I went into enough detail before in a long post, to distinguish between brainwashing and emotional manipulation. Like I said, back when I was young, and was fascinated with a couple of books on this subject, there were a number of experts who took brainwashing seriously; and there were claims....I don't know how reliable they were....that one or two frame images of popcorn displayed to movie audiences were proven to increase the sales of popcorn at the theatre.

If a marketer can't leave a trail of breadcrumbs through subliminal messaging to the desired goal, they still are able to affect viewer's emotional state -- especially frequent viewers, who watch hours of television. If it wasn't for the billions of dollars spent on advertising, it could be written off as a coincidence perhaps; but the changes in buying habits compared to pre-television consumers have to take the volume of advertising and change in ad strategies since the 60's. I recall that back in the 70's, when the three major U.S. beer producers ramped up their advertising in a war over marketshare, the end result was that beer sales increased for all of the brands, because the new lifestyle ads were drawing in demographics that were not beer drinkers previously, like women and younger people.

Nowadays, people go out and shop and buy stuff that they can't even explain why they need it in a coherent sentence. I'm sure marketing has had a lot to do with the trend, and considering problems we have today with the environment and resource scarcities, overconsumption couldn't come at a worse time!

[betsy]

I have to put my faith in man, because man is what I deal with on a day to day basis here on Earth. But since we see how God's words are somewhat hypocritical to out right contradictory , it's hard to know exactly what the real word of God is. .. since it was translated (many times) by man.

The issue is not about my God or His Words. Check the title of this topic.

You made a suggestion as how there's no need to invoke God's name, and I obligingly made my reply to you. That you do not feel the same way that I do in how I view happiness....it is not for you to decide how I should feel. If you don't like it, boo-hoo-hoo. The nerve! You easily go off-rails!

Edited January 3, 2013 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

I thought I went into enough detail before in a long post, to distinguish between brainwashing and emotional manipulation.

Right - and I was responding to Auguste's post to the contrary.

Nowadays, people go out and shop and buy stuff that they can't even explain why they need it in a coherent sentence. I'm sure marketing has had a lot to do with the trend, and considering problems we have today with the environment and resource scarcities, overconsumption couldn't come at a worse time!

I'm more concerned with the effect it has overall - in oversimplifying issues that have grown much more complicated, in making in-depth communication impossible, and in making everything a commodity. I suppose consumption is a symptom of all of that.

[carepov]

What would you like to do if money were no object? How would you really enjoy spending your life?

I would spend my days trolling on MLW...

Seriously, life would be great, filled with sports, games, fun, learning and volunteering. However money is part of life. I do admire and envy those people who love their work - but they are rare. I feel lucky to "not mind" going to work and working to live instead of living to work. A full time job is only 2000 hours/year.

[Guest Manny]

You can make the world a better place without even invoking or spreading the word of God.

So can you.

[cybercoma]

Right - and I was responding to Auguste's post to the contrary.

Do you always call August1991 Auguste from some past ribbing that is ongoing or is this just a consistent typo or oversight?

[Michael Hardner]

Do you always call August1991 Auguste from some past ribbing that is ongoing or is this just a consistent typo or oversight?

No - I think it's a great name, so I use it only in endearing terms. He and I go way back on this board, and he's never objected. In fact, I value his presence and enjoy reading and responding to his posts.