DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 I have a very insiders view. I don't need you trying to twist facts for me. That NC assumes everybody is 'non-native' is rather telling... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Smallc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 That NC assumes everybody is 'non-native' is rather telling... Yes especially since I've already said twice in this thread that I'm metis. I live and work next to a reserve. 90% of the people I deal with throughout the day are status. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Yes especially since I've already said twice in this thread that I'm metis. I live and work next to a reserve. 90% of the people I deal with throughout the day are status. Yes, I'm aware of this. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Rocky Road Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Go ahead, you tell us how many other cultures haven't experienced these same things, and experienced them at times when there was no sympathy, wouldnt be and never will be any apologies, or renumeration, and that is exactly the problem, we in our guilt, have treated you like children, we have allowed the victim industry to grow to a point where you simply see no way of taking care of yourself beyond demanding more pay offs. If you really wanted to help your people you would demand that the government stop treating you differently than the rest of us, you are not different, we are the same, the simple fact that your ancestors were here before ours does not make you righteous, does not make you special. Keep pushing, you may not like the push back. i agree Quote
Merlin Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 The Indians only want to "talk" or have "talks" or "meetings" if they get their own way in the end, otherwise they'll pull a temper tantrum like a bunch of two year olds and "protest". By protest I mean illegally trespass of course. I don't see the white people in England getting special treatment and afforded special rights because they were there first. This woman is doing nothing but hurting her cause and I think people in general are sick and tired of the Indians and their endless whining. Go out and get a job and stop depending on daddy government to give you a hand out is a great place to start. Doesn't she see that she's only ensuring that future generations will be just as hopeless as they are now in the reserves? The Indians need real leadership and right now they don't have it. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 There is going to be at some point. There will come a point. How can there be a backlash when there's so little understanding of what is going on ? We don't even have the same understanding of the dialogue, the process. This is a failure of leadership on both sides IMO. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 I completely disagree with you.Those problems are not in the past, they are festering in our statistics today.I sense you will not budge in your narrow view to seek any form of understanding and I feel there is zero point in discussing this matter with you any further. We are and remain an indispensable part of the Canadian identity. Shouldn't the FN people be putting blame on their leadership rather than going around them and blaming the Canadian government ? Isn't this a failure of both sides ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 This is a failure of leadership on both sides IMO. But that's the problem, most people are tired of there being two sides. Canadians won't put up with that forever. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Go ahead, you tell us how many other cultures haven't experienced these same things, and experienced them at times when there was no sympathy, wouldnt be and never will be any apologies, or renumeration, and that is exactly the problem, we in our guilt, have treated you like children, we have allowed the victim industry to grow to a point where you simply see no way of taking care of yourself beyond demanding more pay offs. If you really wanted to help your people you would demand that the government stop treating you differently than the rest of us, you are not different, we are the same, the simple fact that your ancestors were here before ours does not make you righteous, does not make you special. Keep pushing, you may not like the push back. Ok, well I can understand your frustration but the thinly veiled wish for a complete breakdown between our peoples is irresponsible IMO. No sane person would want to see this descend to this point. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Canuckistani Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 How can there be a backlash when there's so little understanding of what is going on ? We don't even have the same understanding of the dialogue, the process. This is a failure of leadership on both sides IMO. I think Idle No More is a good idea. Just as I thought the Occupy movement was a good idea. Let's hope it doesn't just fizzle out like Occupy. I'm not in agreement with the goals of the Idle No More movement, but just keeping the status quo is not a good idea either. My hope is that INM will wake up the Second Nations people to demand that First Nations be integrated into society with no more special rights. But, if the majority of Canadians decide they want to continue this racist system, just give FN's more money, well that's democracy. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 I don't see the white people in England getting special treatment and afforded special rights because they were there first. But they didn't welcome the Romans or Norman conquest with open arms either. How many English were sent to residential schools? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 But that's the problem, most people are tired of there being two sides. Canadians won't put up with that forever. Canadians, as you mean, probably just want this solved. Is that the same thing as there not being two sides ? I don't know - but I don't see how there could be less than two sides in any case. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 My hope is that INM will wake up the Second Nations people to demand that First Nations be integrated into society with no more special rights. I don't see how that could happen - it's pretty unCanadian whatever else it is. It would be more Canadian to paper over the problem somehow and keep going. But, if the majority of Canadians decide they want to continue this racist system, just give FN's more money, well that's democracy. Far more likely than the other option IMO. Real dialogue with real representatives is so difficult to put together. There are such things that are attempted and even get to some point of success but it doesn't seem to be enough. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Canadians, as you mean, probably just want this solved. They want it solved permanently. They're tired of all of it. Is that the same thing as there not being two sides ? I don't know - but I don't see how there could be less than two sides in any case. There isn't really two sides to this issue, some people just don't seem to realize that. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Canadians, as you mean, probably just want this solved. Is that the same thing as there not being two sides ? I don't know - but I don't see how there could be less than two sides in any case. Agreed...by definition and practice (since before confederation) there have been two (or more) opposing sides. That isn't just going to evaporate now just because some Canadians are tired of the conflict and want it to go away from their television or tablet screens. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Merlin Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 How many English were sent to residential schools? Oh boo hoo! Who cares. No more special treatment for any people in Canada. We keep saying that Canada is for all people to treated equally but it seems like to me that all non whites are treated specially in Canada and white people are seen as the enemy in all things. So do you think that white people in England should be given special treatment and billions of tax dollars each year free to freely spend simply for being white? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Agreed...by definition and practice (since before confederation) there have been two (or more) opposing sides. That isn't just going to evaporate now just because some Canadians are tired of the conflict and want it to go away from their television or tablet screens. The most intriguing time to me was the time from arrival to the time of Andrew Jackson - where you had England, France, Spain and myriad First Nations fighting it out. This is the conflict we inherited, including the modes of non-discussion. Like everything, it's an argument about land, power, money and the usual baubles. Have each side select a proxy to negotiate and have at it. Get the media to agree to not cover it until it's done and the leaders can take the agreement to their peoples for discussion. No more whining about generalities, and throwing accusations - just work it out. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Oh boo hoo! Who cares. No more special treatment for any people in Canada. Including the disabled ? We keep saying that Canada is for all people to treated equally but it seems like to me that all non whites are treated specially in Canada and white people are seen as the enemy in all things. And yet Canada chooses to define them in terms of not being "white" (visible minority), except for native populations. So do you think that white people in England should be given special treatment and billions of tax dollars each year free to freely spend simply for being white? No, I was just challenging your logic based on "English" history. Your position dismisses historical context. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Have each side select a proxy to negotiate and have at it. Canada exists and will continue to exist. Aboriginal people and the special circumstances granted to them exist within that framework and not outside of it. There isn't two sides. Quote
g_bambino Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) I completely disagree with you.Those problems are not in the past, they are festering in our statistics today. They will fester so long as people keep forcing them to shuffle on like reanimated corpses. The residential school system (which didn't affect every aborigional person ever) is over; attempts at erradicating First Nations culture are no more; yet, the way some aboriginals go on in the present, these things are still around and are the reason why there's no remedy to the present day problems First Nations face. This kind of perpetual, contrived self-victimization is part of the problem, not a means towards its solution. [ed.: c/e] Edited January 4, 2013 by g_bambino Quote
Canuckistani Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Have each side select a proxy to negotiate and have at it. Get the media to agree to not cover it until it's done and the leaders can take the agreement to their peoples for discussion. No more whining about generalities, and throwing accusations - just work it out. As you said, this is Canada. The Natives will never be able to select a proxy - who ever is chosen will have a large group of dissenters saying s/he doesn't speak for them. Same with non-Natives. Who will speak for us? And it would presumably be a government person who would speak for "us". Well, in Canada First Nations get to vote for the government too - so they would get to vote for both proxies. Or would this be a racial thing, where depending on your race you get to vote for one or the other proxy? Who would the Metis get to vote for? Quote
Canuckistani Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Canada exists and will continue to exist. Aboriginal people and the special circumstances granted to them exist within that framework and not outside of it. There isn't two sides. I like that. Quote
NativeCharm Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Shouldn't the FN people be putting blame on their leadership rather than going around them and blaming the Canadian government ? Isn't this a failure of both sides ? One of the biggest problems is the corporate bullying and the govvernment endorsing, supporting and legalizing it. Quote It's a shame that stupidity isn't painful.
NativeCharm Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 As you said, this is Canada. The Natives will never be able to select a proxy - who ever is chosen will have a large group of dissenters saying s/he doesn't speak for them. Same with non-Natives. Who will speak for us? And it would presumably be a government person who would speak for "us". Well, in Canada First Nations get to vote for the government too - so they would get to vote for both proxies. Or would this be a racial thing, where depending on your race you get to vote for one or the other proxy? Who would the Metis get to vote for? Thats a very interesting point. In an ideal world of indigenous soverignty, I would suggest that most registered Metis only be allowed to a vote with Inidgenous leadership as many can self identify, so they have a choice. Quote It's a shame that stupidity isn't painful.
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2013 Report Posted January 4, 2013 Race based voting....sounds....dangerous. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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