First nations patiences waning

[gunrutz]

Go ahead, you tell us how many other cultures haven't experienced these same things, and experienced them at times when there was no sympathy, wouldnt be and never will be any apologies, or renumeration, and that is exactly the problem, we in our guilt, have treated you like children, we have allowed the victim industry to grow to a point where you simply see no way of taking care of yourself beyond demanding more pay offs. If you really wanted to help your people you would demand that the government stop treating you differently than the rest of us, you are not different, we are the same, the simple fact that your ancestors were here before ours does not make you righteous, does not make you special.

Keep pushing, you may not like the push back.

[gunrutz]

I completely disagree with you.Those problems are not in the past, they are festering in our statistics today.I sense you will not budge in your narrow view to seek any form of understanding and I feel there is zero point in discussing this matter with you any further. We are and remain an indispensable part of the Canadian identity.

Of course there are problems now, how many of them do your people take responsibility for?

Becuase until you take some personal responsibility for yoursleves nothing will ever change.

[NativeCharm]

The fact that you think I'm disputing that shows just how far off you are. I don't want to deny you, I don't to suppress you, and I don't want to control you. I want you to be just like me (well, I'm metis, so I want me to be like everyone). I want a society that lives up to the song Imagine. I want a society where people really are judged not by the colour of their skin, but the content of their character. You don't want that, and I'm not sure why.

First off, its a tad challenging having a few of you coming at me in different directions ( and I seem to be the only rep here), and so many issues. I too feel I am being misunderstood. I dont get treated any different than you do. I work, pay taxes, eat, go to sleep, I vote and I strive for a better future. The bottom line is, there are issues. Serious environmental and economical issues, hence the frustration and the rapidly growing movement known as Idle No More.They are complex and nuanced problems compounded not just by racist ignorance but a general lack of awareness amongst non-Native Canadians.

[Smallc]

I dont get treated any different than you do.

Yes you do, in fact. You are technically a ward of the state. You receive medical coverage that I don't. There are issues, but continuing with the current system isn't going to solve those issues. Equality will solve everything in time.

[Sleipnir]

We've had our culture taken away, yet commodditized, our children murdered, stolen and sold, our language forbidden, our customs practically relinquished, and our spirituality outlawed...and you really think trying assmilating us is going to allow us to live in peace and harmony in a cultural mosaic? Do you know what year we were allowed to vote? Do you know what year we were allowed to have a bank account? We are just now gaining and barely allowed to have any opportunities for economical prosperity, yet reluctantlly watch our lands and water get stripped away into a blackness of nothing.

It's clear to me you have no idea what you're talking about. You're sprouting out stuff that has nothing to do with today's issues.

Our roots and identity are connected to the land and its history. The sooner more people accept and respect that, the closer we get to harmony.

People are, I don't see what you're trying to say.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Sleipnir

[NativeCharm]

Yes you do, in fact. You are technically a ward of the state. You receive medical coverage that I don't. There are issues, but continuing with the current system isn't going to solve those issues. Equality will solve everything in time.

Allow me to enlighten you. First Nations include status, non status, metis and inuit. I do not receive medical, no free anything, thanks. My grnadfather fought in both wars, was promised land just as other soldiers but like all the native solliders, never received that benefit for serving and surviving. My grandmothers bought their own land (where the bred dogs for sled races) next to treaty land that has since been expropriated in the name of the tar sands

My point is, not all Native have the same 'benefits' and the fact that you dont know that common knowledge proves your ignorance, which is a choice.

[blueblood]

First off, its a tad challenging having a few of you coming at me in different directions ( and I seem to be the only rep here), and so many issues. I too feel I am being misunderstood. I dont get treated any different than you do. I work, pay taxes, eat, go to sleep, I vote and I strive for a better future. The bottom line is, there are issues. Serious environmental and economical issues, hence the frustration and the rapidly growing movement known as Idle No More.They are complex and nuanced problems compounded not just by racist ignorance but a general lack of awareness amongst non-Native Canadians.

The frustration is that there is a fundamental flaw with how the Indian act is written and the lie you guys hear that the treaty system will lead you to the promised land. The fact that so many reserves live in poverty is exhibit a of why socialism is a complete joke. Where are the pro business chiefs in all of this. I haven't heard a peep out of chief Darcy bear, why? His reservesunemployment rate is 4% and they dont need any federal money. The fact that Dakota whitecap can go from 70 percent u employment to 4 percent unemployment in less than 20 years shows how incompetent chief spence is especially with a diamond mine adjacent to her reserve. Here is no excuse why her reserve should be in poverty. None.

[NativeCharm]

It's clear to me you have no idea what you're talking about. You're sprouting out stuff that has nothing to do with today's issues.

This parliament CHOSE to treat our people as not equally human. The charter of rights and freedoms did not apply to us. I do not think you have a clear concept of what our issues are, which are very much alive and in our face.

[Smallc]

Allow me to enlighten you. First Nations include status, non status, metis and inuit. I do not receive medical, no free anything, thanks.

If you are status, then you should. I'm metis, I know what I do and don't receive. I know what status people receive also. I didn't say anything was free, btw. I am involved on such a close level with all of this every day that you'd do well to keep your facts straight.

[Smallc]

The charter of rights and freedoms did not apply to us.

Prove that, because as far as I know, it's impossible.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Smallc

[Sleipnir]

This parliament CHOSE to treat our people as not equally human. The charter of rights and freedoms did not apply to us. I do not think you have a clear concept of what our issues are, which are very much alive and in our face.

1) The parliament treats everyone equally.

2) The charter of rights and freedoms applies to ALL Canadians.

3) The natives issues are clear, but you're barking up the wrong tree with your style of argument.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Sleipnir

[Sleipnir]

http://ca.news.yahoo...-201047085.html

The lists of Spence's critics are growing more and more each passing day.

----------

Quote-

"In a column published on Wednesday, the Calgary Herald editorial board accused Spence of "blackmailing" Stephen Harper:

"The threat of suicide is always ill advised or rooted in selfishness. In the regrettable case of Theresa Spence, it appears to be a case of both.

"Apart from Spence’s inexcusable blackmailing of the prime minister, it’s evident she’s unreasonable. Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan has expressed a willingness to meet with Spence, but he’s been rebuffed."

Last week, the National Post's Christie Blatchford caused an online stir for using the word "terrorism" when writing about Spence's hunger strike:

"Chief Spence has parked herself on an island in the Ottawa River, is on Day 17 of a hunger strike, and all around her, the inevitable cycle of hideous puffery and horse manure that usually accompanies native protests swirls.

It is tempting to see the action as one of intimidation, if not terrorism: She is, after all, holding the state hostage to vaguely articulated demands."

And then there's

's Ezra Levant.

While he is often controversial, you've got to give him credit here for doing his homework:

"I started looking into Attawapiskat's situation.

Attawapiskat

is a small town in Northern Ontario. About 1500 people living 300 homes. But they have 3 chiefs on the payroll, 18 councillors on the payroll — that's 21 full-time politicians.

"Did you know that in the middle of the so-called housing crisis where they need more money that Chief Theresa and the band has $9 million stock portfolio...Attiwapiskat has $9 million [in stocks] - like in Apple, in China Mobile, in Banks. Maybe if you have a housing crisis you sell a few stocks."

A 'blackmailer,' a 'terrorist' and essentially a selfish chief?"

-End Quote

----------

Edited January 4, 2013 by Sleipnir

[NativeCharm]

Prove that, because as far as I know, it's impossible.

I'm not interested in giving you a lesson on the blood stained history of Canada... and fyi, the only Natives that receive medical benefit are status and that right is diminishing, and I imagine it will completely with sovereignty.

The Treaties are business arrangments that should be honored. We have been idle too long but are now more educated to fully understand how and why the deals have been breached/violated. The Native peoples are making sincere efforts to improve the quality of life, for everyone. This has never changed.

The main trade in a treaty is land sharing for resource and railway development, settlement, resource and immense wealth accumulation for Settlers and their descendants in exchange for payments, health, education, economic development, social assistance, hunting and fishing rights for Aboriginal Peoples. Each treaty is individual but this is a basic framework. Self-government is a treaty right because they were signed by two sovereign Nations.

The Canadian Constitution Act of 1982, Section 25 reaffirms the Royal Proclamation and Section 35 states that “existing Aboriginal and treaty rights are hereby recognized & affirmed.” These rights were extended to include Métis and Inuit as Aboriginal Peoples. Disrespecting the spirit and intent of treaties and breaking traditional governance systems was one way poverty was instilled into Aboriginal communities -We are the poorest in our own lands!

Edited January 4, 2013 by NativeCharm

[blueblood]

1) The parliament treats everyone equally.

2) The charter of rights and freedoms applies to ALL Canadians.

3) The natives issues are clear, but you're barking up the wrong tree with your style of argument.

What these people don't realize is that they are rolling the dice when it comes to pissing off the electorate. If the majority of the electorate wants something to happen it will happen, and that may include treaty rights going bye bye. Just ask the rich people in the USA about how they are going to enjoy their tax hike. (I disagree with the tax hike on just the 1%, but that's for another thread)

[NativeCharm]

1) The parliament treats everyone equally.

2) The charter of rights and freedoms applies to ALL Canadians.

3) The natives issues are clear, but you're barking up the wrong tree with your style of argument.

If 1 and 2 were true, many horrific events in our history would never have occured such as residential school and mass graves of Native children.

I am not here to bark up any tree, I was asked by several members to engage in hopefully productive dialogue. Believe me, i got better things to do than to argue over history and unjust laws and legislation. I agreed to participate in the thread in hopes of learning, sharing and trying to find some level of mutual understanding. I am now doubting whether thats possible, and think it might be best to just let you all 'pleasantly' discuss amongst yourselves about how awful the indians are.

[Smallc]

I'm not interested in giving you a lesson on the blood stained history of Canada...

It could have been far worse for aboriginal people, and was in most other places. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't a blood bath either.

and fyi, the only Natives that receive medical benefit are status and that right is diminishing, and I imagine it will completely with sovereignty.

That right has not been diminished in any way, believe me, I know. I never said that non status received the benefits, btw.

The Treaties are business arrangments that should be honored.

No, they're not, they're agreements between sovereign entities about land. The entities and the land, btw, all fall under the Crown of Canada.

We have been idle too long but are now more educated to fully understand how and why the deals have been breached/violated. The Native peoples are making sincere efforts to improve the quality of life, for everyone. This has never changed.

That's just fluff.

The main trade in a treaty is land sharing for resource and railway development, settlement, resource and immense wealth accumulation for Settlers and their descendants in exchange for payments, health, education, economic development, social assistance, hunting and fishing rights for Aboriginal Peoples. Each treaty is individual but this is a basic framework. Self-government is a treaty right because they were signed by two sovereign Nations.

Citations are needed here.

The Canadian Constitution Act of 1982, Section 25 reaffirms the Royal Proclamation and Section 35 states that “existing Aboriginal and treaty rights are hereby recognized & affirmed.” These rights were extended to include Métis and Inuit as Aboriginal Peoples. Disrespecting the spirit and intent of treaties and breaking traditional governance systems was one way poverty was instilled into Aboriginal communities -We are the poorest in our own lands!

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Smallc

[The_Squid]

What these people don't realize is that they are rolling the dice when it comes to pissing off the electorate. If the majority of the electorate wants something to happen it will happen, and that may include treaty rights going bye bye. Just ask the rich people in the USA about how they are going to enjoy their tax hike. (I disagree with the tax hike on just the 1%, but that's for another thread)

The whole rich person stuff is a red herring, but I agree with the rest of your post. There may be a backlash from mainstream Canadians.

[Smallc]

If 1 and 2 were true, many horrific events in our history would never have occured such as residential school and mass graves of Native children.

You do know when the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms came into being, I hope.

[Smallc]

The whole rich person stuff is a red herring, but I agree with the rest of your post. There may be a backlash from mainstream Canadians.

There is going to be at some point. There will come a point.

[NativeCharm]

You do know when the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms came into being, I hope.

You do know when the last residential school closed, i hope.

[Sleipnir]

If 1 and 2 were true, many horrific events in our history would never have occured such as residential school and mass graves of Native children.

That's probably because the current constitution was established long after the activities of residential schools?

[The_Squid]

It could have been far worse for aboriginal people, and was in most other places.  It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't a blood bath either.

I disagree. Their treatment by Canada was as bad as anywhere. However, how long should people hang on to that in modern society? Does it help matters, or make them worse? When should people get on with healing themselves and move on? Healing is not going to come from the government.

[Sleipnir]

However, how long should people hang on to that in modern society?

For some reason, some of them don't want to move on and look towards the future.

[NativeCharm]

I disagree. Their treatment by Canada was as bad as anywhere. However, how long should people hang on to that in modern society? Does it help matters, or make them worse? When should people get on with healing themselves and move on? Healing is not going to come from the government.

I agree. Healing has to occur on both sides. You will find that most Native people are striving and thriving to move forward. Most with an open mind, especially those that live in urban centres.

[blueblood]

I disagree. Their treatment by Canada was as bad as anywhere. However, how long should people hang on to that in modern society? Does it help matters, or make them worse? When should people get on with healing themselves and move on? Healing is not going to come from the government.

Oh I don't know, I'm pretty sure the viatnamese who fled south Vietnam on rafts have some pretty good horror stories of their own along with e Ukrainians during the Mongol invasion.