Unions Using Teachers Using Students

[Big Guy]

Years ago when it was time for a new contract between the unions and the three major auto manufacturers in North America, the unions would target only one of them, negotiate (strike if they had to) and eventually sign a contract. It was generally understood and accepted that the same contract would be agreed to for the other manufacturers. The union targeted a different company every negotiation so only one company would be shut down for any one negotiation period.

So now we come to the current impasse between teacher unions and the Ontario government. With a $17 billion deficit, our government had decided that part of the solution was a multi-year wage freeze and a reduction in benefits for all employees. The government managed to negotiate such a deal with a few teacher unions and then passed Bill 115 which would impose a similar settlement on all teachers. The expectation was that this offer was to be a template for all provincial public service employees.

From the unions point of view, teachers are perceived the most sympathetic group of employees. It appears that all these unions decided that the teachers would march to the front and carry the public service banner into the fight. Even though the legislature was prorogued and the legality of the legislation was to be decided by the courts the teachers (knowingly or unknowingly) accepted the lead.

The idea of using student sports, clubs, presentations and other extracurricular activities as bargaining chips is a very effective if unsavory tactic. So now on one side we have a government with no leader and a $17 billion deficit and on the other side we have the enormous power of all the public service employees using the teachers as front line troops – troops which are now talking strike action and using children’s education as cannon fodder for the battle. In the center of this fray we have the innocent students who have a right to an undisturbed educational experience and working parents scrambling to arrange for day supervision for their children.

The only winners will be the provincial opposition parties and the rest of the public unions. The eventual settlement of this teacher contract dispute will be the norm for all public service contracts in Ontario. The current government has little expectation of being elected to a fourth consecutive term and most of the public service will have survived relatively unscathed with a new contract without a strike. I fear that what will remain in tatters will be the total positive school experience for our children and the reputation of the teaching profession.

[Fletch 27]

Time for Ontario teachers to get a set of balls.... And depart from the union.

I for one will be emptying my car of all refuse while passing any teacher protests... They disgust.me

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Why do you ignore the real problem?

Teachers are now less than human according to the goverment. They don't have access to the human rights code, they've been barred from challenging the legislation in the courts (the legislation itself says so). The minister of ed can, and has, changed tentative local agreements that school board and local union have signed off on. The minister can reject deals struck by boards and local unions. The minister can reject deals ratified by both local union and school board. The minister can impose a deal, after effing the process the whole way through. Teachers can't do a full strike because the legislation says they can be sent back to work without consulting the legislature.

The real problem is bill 115. A draconian law that should have never been implemented.

What exactly do you expect? Them to bend over and spread their cheeks? Extracurriculars are the last resort, i hope you realize that.

[Michael Hardner]

Why would they ever leave the union given what has happened ? That makes no sense. As for the idea that the reputation of the teaching profession is damaged, it seems like hyperbole to me. They are soft peddling their tactics more than ever, and have made concessions too.

[Big Guy]

I wonder how many teachers would go on strike and face their students and their parents on a picket line if they felt (and understood) that they were being used as pawns by ALL other public service unions in Ontario, each with its own agenda. That is a difficult argument to sell to the parents of your students for refusing to teach their kids.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Big Guy

[Topaz]

First let me ask, do any of you believe that teachers have a right to bargain? I believe they do but union has to open it mind and know the province has financial problem, and allof its provincial workers have to give up something for a short term. So if the union mind set is we are NOT going to give up anything, then what's the point of bargaining. Other than the bargaining point , does anyone know what else is bugging these teachers?

[Wayward Son]

Other than the bargaining point , does anyone know what else is bugging these teachers?

Some people don't like having their rights trampled. Others don't like that the Government demonized them and lied to the public using pure dog-whistle politics in their attempt to win a single by-election seat (and therefore a majority). I would think that most sane people would recognize that the government is wrong in both cases, however, people who hate unions appear to ok with any actions taken against groups of people they dislike.

[Big Guy]

Some people don't like having their rights trampled. Others don't like that the Government demonized them and lied to the public using pure dog-whistle politics in their attempt to win a single by-election seat (and therefore a majority). I would think that most sane people would recognize that the government is wrong in both cases, however, people who hate unions appear to ok with any actions taken against groups of people they dislike.

You may find that other posters might take you more seriously if you did not imply that those who disagree with you are insane. It is a tactic that indicates immaturity, a lack of experience on public access opinion boards and threatens one's credibility placing one into the "do not take too seriously" category.

[Wayward Son]

To be honest BG, when someone sets up a whole thread spreading nonsense that the current labor issues with teachers is a plot by other public sector unions pulling the strings of teachers...it is a pretty strong indication of how far people who hate unions will go to delude themselves. I have had more then my share of issues with one major union. I would like to see unions fundamentally reformed. However, my past issues with that union, and my desire to never belong to another one, doesn't cloud my judgement to the point where I have no problem with a government removing rights from a targetted group of people as a political maneuver to attempt to gain majority power. You should also note that I did not say that all sane people would knowingly oppose such arbitrary actions and abuse of power by their government, just most.

[Big Guy]

To be honest BG, when someone sets up a whole thread spreading nonsense that the current labor issues with teachers is a plot by other public sector unions pulling the strings of teachers...it is a pretty strong indication of how far people who hate unions will go to delude themselves. I have had more then my share of issues with one major union. I would like to see unions fundamentally reformed. However, my past issues with that union, and my desire to never belong to another one, doesn't cloud my judgement to the point where I have no problem with a government removing rights from a targetted group of people as a political maneuver to attempt to gain majority power. You should also note that I did not say that all sane people would knowingly oppose such arbitrary actions and abuse of power by their government, just most.

“Hate” implies a knee-jerk, uneducated, emotional, non-cerebral and unqualified negative reaction to something. I have found that most communication on this board does not fall into that category. I feel that most opinions posted on this board, although subjectively based on the individual posters vision of our society, are generally well thought out and submitted with the intention of adding another possible view of an issue – after all, that is the intent of participation on successful public access opinion boards.

I have no problems with anyone disagreeing with anything I post and they will generally receive a polite and civil response if appropriate. I do understand that many posters are passionate in their perceptions and tend to use rhetoric which emphasizes that passion. Unfortunately, the written word is restrictive in total communication so passionate and emphatic language can easily cross the line into insulting and derogatory dialogue causing the focus to shift from the message to the messenger. Unfortunately I have fallen into that trap in the past and lost the opportunity of intelligent discourse on issues dear to my heart. I am now far more careful and selective in the manner in which I post.

You might note that collaboration among unions on the federal, provincial and municipal service areas is not only with precedent but also common and an effective negotiating tactic. Thank you for your opinion. I stand by my statements.

[jacee]

Time for Ontario teachers to get a set of balls.... And depart from the union.

You seem to have missed the fact that teachers voted over 95% in favour of strike action.

I for one will be emptying my car of all refuse while passing any teacher protests... They disgust.me

That'll get you a fine for littering.

What an example of maturity for kids!

Edited December 10, 2012 by jacee

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Fletch, maybe if you spent your time trying to fight to improve your life and benefits, you wouldn't be so god damned bitter about what other people have.

The mega corps/1%ers are laughing at all of us. So many fools have bought into mantra of "No one can have more than me, and if they do they don't deserve it!"

Do I think teachers deserve infinite raises? no... of course not. But they deserve the right to be treated as a human, with access to the human rights code and labour laws of all Ontarians.

[Boges]

It's quite ironic that, when people that are part of the public service are challenged that their benefits are out of whack with what a vast majority of people in the private sector experience, they immediately go to the jealousy card. YET they also start talking about how the 1%ers get way more than they do. Talk about Sucking and Blowing.

[Big Guy]

I know that teachers are very well educated but it appears as if they have very poor memories. Their job actions are upsetting many parents and provincial elections are looming.

Remember – in Toronto there was a garbage strike that really upset a lot of people. They elected Rob Ford who (as promised during the campaign) privatized garbage collection and put many of these strikers out of a job and caused a drop in wages for those who switched to private firms.

In 1995, the teachers got upset with Bob Rae and the Rae days so they organized against the NDP and ended up electing Mike Harris. Harris quickly moved against the teachers and soon they were regretting their change of allegiance.

Now the teacher unions are targeting Dalton McGuinty, the same person who fought for and delivered about 30% salary increases over the last 8 years. Every recent job action is driving more and more people into the Progressive Conservative camp. Tim Hudak has already promised to be a lot tougher on teacher’s salaries, benefits, pensions and working hours. Tim also promised to make union dues voluntary. Teachers are not very militant people and if you give them the choice, how many will duck out of the union and their dues and concentrate on their classroom duties?

I suggest that the teachers hold on to those picket signs from those one day strikes. They may need them for the coming Tim Hudak years.

[Boges]

You're right, There was a 2 week Strike in 2007. Harris got re-elected in 1999. Keep it Up Teachers!!!

[Boges]

If teachers are now canceling ALL extra-curricular activities, they are actually really hurting students. Many students rely on extra curricular activities to help them get into certain post-secondary schools.

It's a flat-out lie that these work actions are being done for the students just as it's a lie that Bill 115 was a putting Students first act. It's a putting Taxpayers first act. Something rare coming from this government.

[jacee]

Tim also promised to make union dues voluntary. Teachers are not very militant people and if you give them the choice, how many will duck out of the union and their dues and concentrate on their classroom duties?[/font][/size]

Probably the same 3-5% who voted against strike action, the same ones who greedily accept everything the union negotiates for them and demand more while contributing nothing, the same ones who work as little as possible and get bad reviews from students.

Hudak can't do squat.

And that's ok because it makes it obvious that the only intelligent choice is Andrea Horwath.

[Boges]

Probably the same 3-5% who voted against strike action, the same ones who greedily accept everything the union negotiates for them and demand more while contributing nothing, the same ones who work as little as possible and get bad reviews from students.

Hudak can't do squat.

And that's ok because it makes it obvious that the only intelligent choice is Andrea Horwath.

Or the 50% that didn't bother participate in the Ratification Votes in the boards that were able to make a deal because the votes aren't secret.

An NDP Ontario government is a troubling prospect with a $13 billion deficit.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Boges

[Fletch 27]

Probably the same 3-5% who voted against strike action, the same ones who greedily accept everything the union negotiates for them and demand more while contributing nothing, the same ones who work as little as possible and get bad reviews from students.

Hudak can't do squat.

And that's ok because it makes it obvious that the only intelligent choice is Andrea Horwath.

YEs, More spending on Teachers and public servants is exactly what we need. Simple pandering has went the way of the DoDo bird Jacee... Ontario realizes now Daltons methods and surely despise more Horvaths....

[Wayward Son]

You might note that collaboration among unions on the federal, provincial and municipal service areas is not only with precedent but also common and an effective negotiating tactic.

So what? Just because a tactic has been used in the past does not mean that it is being used at the moment. To make the claim that it is you would need to actually provide some evidence and not just your opinion. And yes, it is your responsibility to provide evidence as you are the one making the positive claim.

The reality is that the teacher's unions themselves 1) have not stuck together and 2) have no consensus idea within each individual union as to how to react to the bill. It was not the public sector unions that decided to put the teacher's out there first. It was the McGuinty government. The latter takes about 3 seconds to figure out. The fact that couldn't be bothered to do so, and instead decided to construct a conspiracy that matches your preconceived opinions speaks volumes.

[Wayward Son]

It's a flat-out lie that these work actions are being done for the students just as it's a lie that Bill 115 was a putting Students first act. It's a putting Taxpayers first act. Something rare coming from this government.

1) The bill is actually called "An Act to implement restraint measures in the education sector."

2) This bill was not about putting taxpayers first. It was an attempt by the McGuinty government to win a majority. They cared about nothing else. The fact is the bill was not needed at the time it was implemented, and deals would have most likely been struck between most of the unions by now, as

teachers unions had already agreed to most of what the government wanted to impose on them before the bill was drafted.

3) The fact that the government tried to convince the public that the bill was necessary to freeze wages when unions had already agreed to do so, shows just how little the government thinks of the public.

If I asked a group of conservatives if they would be comfortable with the power of the government being so large that it would be able to deny groups of citizens charter rights, and deny that same group recourse in the legal system, they would say no.

But if I said the same thing while blowing the dog whistle by including the key words unions and teachers then the brainless authoritarians among them would say hell yes.

If I asked a group of conservatives if they thought it was a good idea to centralize more decision making power not just into the hands of the legislature, but into the hands of cabinet allowing them to overturn contracts made by autonomous parties, the would say no.

But if I said the same thing while blowing the dog whistle by including the key words unions and teachers then the brainless authoritarians among them would say hell yes.

This has nothing to do about what teachers should have, or shouldn't have in their contracts. It is about the power that our governments have to ignore our constitution, charter rights and established law. There are proper ways that such things could be changed if enough of the population desires it. The government also has the ability to bargain hard in good faith against public sector unions. Passing bills like bill 115 ignores its responsibility.

You have a problem if you need the bill you passed to say the following:

Restrictions on jurisdiction

Limit on jurisdiction of Ontario Labour Relations Board

14. (1) The Ontario Labour Relations Board shall not inquire into or make a decision on whether a provision of this Act, a regulation or an order made under subsection 9 (2) is constitutionally valid or is in conflict with the Human Rights Code.

Limit on jurisdiction of arbitrators

(2) An arbitrator or arbitration board shall not inquire into or make a decision on whether a provision of this Act, a regulation or an order made under subsection 9 (2) is constitutionally valid or is in conflict with the Human Rights Code.

Restrictions on review

No review by court

15. (1) No term or condition included in an employment contract or collective agreement under or by virtue of this Act, process for consultation prescribed under this Act, or decision, approval, act, advice, direction, regulation or order made by the Minister or Lieutenant Governor in Council under this Act shall be questioned or reviewed in any court.

Same

(2) No steps shall be taken to have a court question, review, prohibit or restrain any consultation, review or approval process prescribed or initiated under this Act at the Minister’s or Lieutenant Governor in Council’s discretion.

[Boges]

Again I think both parties suck here, if they could both lose somehow, that'd be cool.

Also this isn't just about a wage freeze. They also want to claw back bankable sick days and freeze automatic raises that happen when you move up the grid by seniority.

Many non-union public servants have had their wages frozen for three or four years.

[Fletch 27]

lets talk about 1.6 Billion dollars in accrued sick days??????????

Silly left.. "oh we agreed to a 2 year pay-freeze"...... Yes, but THATS not the issues.....

[MiddleClassCentrist]

As usual, rather that respond logically... Right wing rage responds with emotive, near meaningless argle bargle. Address the facts/discussion, less hearsay and silly blind rage.

Fletch, do you believe Bill 115's measures that put the Goverment of Ontario above the human rights code, labour law, and legal challenge to be good policy? Please answer.

[Fletch 27]

I shall... I do not believe 115 impacts any of those "codes", labor law etc.etc.