SHAME! Our 'Health Care" is the pits in comparison. :(

[Argus]

You know - if we were to break through this issue and create an adequate forum for a public to discuss it, that would likely be a great model to discuss other less contentious issues.

How about we boot out a few of the trolls then? Or implement an idea Charles seemed to approve of and try self-moderating topics. That way we could discuss health care and anything posted which was bizarrely stupid (ie, anything monty16 writes) or troll-like (rah-rah America) could simply be deleted.

[overthere]

Sure! Let's compare ours with France's #1 health care in the world. If Canada could get rid of the Harper rightwing Nazis and elect the Liberals who would concentrate more on social responsibilities then maybe we could be more like France.

But no, the rabid right can't do anything but criticize France for looking after their people.

And try to stay away from the personal attacks o.k. because this isn't about me.

Be careful what you wish for.......do you know how the health care system works in France? Did you know that you pay a cash fee every time you visit a physician? I know this because my brother lived in France for nearly 20 years and I drove his kids to some appointments, cash in fist.

Why do you want to penalize users of health care in Canada?

[hitops]

Be careful what you wish for.......do you know how the health care system works in France? Did you know that you pay a cash fee every time you visit a physician? I know this because my brother lived in France for nearly 20 years and I drove his kids to some appointments, cash in fist.

Why do you want to penalize users of health care in Canada?

I was about to mention exactly the same thing. France's system does have advantages over ours.....the problem is they are not the advantages that socialists think, they are in fact the market reforms France uses to make everyone pay some of their care.

I work as a physician in Canada. No politician ever, ever tells the truth about our system. The frank truth is that our system cannot possibly cope with the expectations people have, and remain publicly-funded. In the current model, there will always be losers in the system, and I see this every day. There is no even close to enough money to make it what you all want it to be. The only want to get that money is to introduce user fees or some other form of cost for use, or allow much larger sections of the system to be private care.

The funding problem is so ridiculous that as of right now, there are tons of people that need care and are waiting months and years, and at the same time tons of specialists who cannot find jobs. Why? Because there is no funding for them.

Edited June 18, 2014 by hitops

[PIK]

Could you explain how population density has any correlation whatsoever to number of doctors?

Remember that the shortages aren't in the boonies but in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa, very highly populated areas.

I live in a small town and we have had great success with bringing in new doctors. But one problem I know of is waste and there is a lot of it.

[PIK]

Sure! Let's compare ours with France's #1 health care in the world. If Canada could get rid of the Harper rightwing Nazis and elect the Liberals who would concentrate more on social responsibilities then maybe we could be more like France.

But no, the rabid right can't do anything but criticize France for looking after their people.

And try to stay away from the personal attacks o.k. because this isn't about me.

Nazi's? And when the liberals get into power and say no to pipelines and the oil sands, where is the money going to come from??

[waldo]

And when the liberals get into power and say no to pipelines and the oil sands, where is the money going to come from??

given you just mentioned the guy in another thread, is this what Ezrant has been telling you?

[hitops]

The French system works very much like your typical health/dental plan. The insurer (French government) covers most of the cost, and you pay 20-30% or whatever. You can buy extra insurance to cover that portion or get it through work.

Basically they are trying to get the best of both worlds - have the scaling and administrative leanness of a single payer, but with an element of market incentives for the individual.

Through both of our systems are highly socialist, there's is more right-wing than ours.

Perhaps the French have found an efficiency/effectiveness sweet spot. We can learn something here.

Just imagine trying to charge native people, vastly disproportionate users of the system, 20-30% of their medical costs. You've never heard wailing and gnashing of teeth like that would produce. $10 - 15 for a consult? I have to think about how I treat myself? Bang the drums....whitey screwing us again!!!!!

Edited June 18, 2014 by hitops

[scribblet]

Our government has control over our health care system by funding it. Therefore, the Harper government is in the process of defunding it and consequently making it bad enough that the people will go along with it's destruction. It's a slow process because what they are doing must be hidden from the people as much as possible.

......................

That is simply hyperbole. Transfers are increasing every year as health care for Ontario alone will be almost a 60% increase from the previous gov't. Ontario's share of federal health dollars will increase from $11.9 billion this year to $12.3 billion next year.

[Keepitsimple]

That is simply hyperbole. Transfers are increasing every year as health care for Ontario alone will be almost a 60% increase from the previous gov't. Ontario's share of federal health dollars will increase from $11.9 billion this year to $12.3 billion next year.

It's more than hyperbole - it's nonsense. The provinces are responsible for delivering healthcare - building and operating hospitals, paying doctors - pretty well everything that we consider to be patient-related care. As such, they should and do fund most of the cost - about 75% right now. If it's more money that's needed, all the provinces have to do is raise taxes - but of course that's not in the cards......so the laggard provinces - like Ontario - simply cry poor and demand more from the Feds (and the taxpayers). That's the beauty of Flaherty's fixed funding that rises every year......no more avoiding accountability by the provinces - they have to get on with improving their delivery systems through a combination of efficiency, innovation (allow some private competition) - and yes, perhaps raising taxes.

[PIK]

given you just mentioned the guy in another thread, is this what Ezrant has been telling you?

Ezra says a lot of things, because he actually researches what he does. Why do you think the people on the left hate him so much? Why do you think the MSM has fought tooth and nail to keep sun news from getting in more homes? Because he speaks the truth about the liberals or the NDP that you will not hear on any other station.

[waldo]

Ezra says a lot of things, because he actually researches what he does. Why do you think the people on the left hate him so much? Why do you think the MSM has fought tooth and nail to keep sun news from getting in more homes? Because he speaks the truth about the liberals or the NDP that you will not hear on any other station.

oh please, stop... stop... for the luv of gawd almighty, please stop now!

[PIK]

oh please, stop... stop... for the luv of gawd almighty, please stop now!

That is the best you can come out with? You sound like a cornered animal.

[Argus]

This is the sort of thing which needs a national approach, the kind of strategic policy design which the Harper government has been loath to even touch. I don't blame them alone. It's been festering for a long time now, but it's getting worse and they not only have no plan to deal with it they've washed their hands of even the responsibility to look for one. Saying 'it's the provinces responsibility' doesn't cut it. It's a national problem, and the provinces don't have the resources. Health care costs are already approaching half their budgets.

IMO what needs to be done is to move the responsibility for health care from the provinces to the federal government. Tha's the way it works in every other civilized nation I'm aware of. That way there's no weaseling around with two levels of government pointing at each other, and there's one centralized organization to consider and implement changes. And one of those changes should be to bring in place a system for getting all these elderly people out of hospitals and into decent care elsewhere.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/seniors-on-stretchers-a-health-care-disgrace/article20736757/

[overthere]

IMO what needs to be done is to move the responsibility for health care from the provinces to the federal government. Tha's the way it works in every other civilized nation I'm aware of. That way there's no weaseling around with two levels of government pointing at each other, and there's one centralized organization to consider and implement changes. And one of those changes should be to bring in place a system for getting all these elderly people out of hospitals and into decent care elsewhere.

Centralization, in a country several thousand kms across?

Makes sense. Not.

You won't have any problem then when your mother is warehoused in the wonderful, efficient central facility in Brampton. You can visit her from Terrace BC anytime you want.

It's a national problem, and the provinces don't have the resources. Health care costs are already approaching half their budgets.

The provinces have nearly complete control over raising revenue through taxes. They have control over their costs to a large degree, in the sense that they can choose what is included in their own health care model.. There is also the huge backstop of equalization payments for regimes that can not or will not provide health care funding equivalent to other provinces. What is missing is not central control, but the political spine at all levels to have a frank and realistic debate about health care, and the courage to carry through on decisions

It has to start with the premise that we cannot keep everybody alive forever, which means medical decisions will be influenced by money. Another premise is that not all currently funded procedures will be paid for by the state, many will be delisted.

I don't see any politicians of any stripe willing to even speak honestly, much less act.

The French system works very much like your typical health/dental plan. The insurer (French government) covers most of the cost, and you pay 20-30% or whatever. You can buy extra insurance to cover that portion or get it through work.

The French system also has user fees. You pay cash from your own pocket every time you visit a doctor.

[eyeball]

I don't agree with the centralization of our health care system in Ottawa for the same reason I think BC should be in charge of it's ocean and fisheries.

If our health care systems are anything to judge by Canada is a socialist nation and has been for decades and decades. Ottawa should be in charge of developing policies that promote that at the global level. Instead it has done the opposite and dragged us into a capitalistic race to the bottom where every single monetized thing is privatized for no apparent purpose other than channeling and concentrating wealth into as few hands as possible.

[Keepitsimple]

IMO what needs to be done is to move the responsibility for health care from the provinces to the federal government. Tha's the way it works in every other civilized nation I'm aware of. That way there's no weaseling around with two levels of government pointing at each other, and there's one centralized organization to consider and implement changes. And one of those changes should be to bring in place a system for getting all these elderly people out of hospitals and into decent care elsewhere.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/seniors-on-stretchers-a-health-care-disgrace/article20736757/

Can't agree with you on that one.....but you are partially correct - and that's there has been too much arguing back and forth about the responsibility for Healthcare - even though delivery of Healthcare has been in the Provinces domain since inception. One size does not fit all. Harper made it clear that the nauseating, repetitive cap-in-hand routine by the provinces were at an end - he established firm funding rules with a reasonably generous escalation clause. There's the money - deliver Healthcare. If you need more - do it better or increase taxes. I've said it before - we are blessed with 10 provinces that can run like test-labs - try things out - and learn best practices from each other. If privatizing hip and knee replacements as an adjunct to a hospital creates "scales of economy", great - try it out - refine it - share the technique......and yes, maybe even ask the Feds to chip in with a one-time infrastructure grant. Get creative all you provinces - but for heaven's sake - get on with it!

[Rocky Road]

Sugar tobacco uv salons homelessness mental illness

[waldo]

Harper made it clear that the nauseating, repetitive cap-in-hand routine by the provinces were at an end - he established firm funding rules with a reasonably generous escalation clause.

reasonably generous escalation clause..... for..... what???

clarification and citation request

[On Guard for Thee]

Those "cap in hand" people you mention have the responsibility to administer health care. They now have to do it with cuts to their xfer payments. I hope you don't ever end up cap in hand going to a hospital.

[overthere]

I don't agree with the centralization of our health care system in Ottawa for the same reason I think BC should be in charge of it's ocean and fisheries.

If our health care systems are anything to judge by Canada is a socialist nation and has been for decades and decades. Ottawa should be in charge of developing policies that promote that at the global level. Instead it has done the opposite and dragged us into a capitalistic race to the bottom where every single monetized thing is privatized for no apparent purpose other than channeling and concentrating wealth into as few hands as possible.

Yes, clearly expenses like health care, education, national defence and some other inconsequential expenses have been privatized in some alternate universe. Send us a postcard please..

Those "cap in hand" people you mention have the responsibility to administer health care. They now have to do it with cuts to their xfer payments. I hope you don't ever end up cap in hand going to a hospital.

What cuts are those? Are you referring to the action by Harper to stop the escalation in increases to health care, but not the increases themselves?

Clearly your province is spending too much on health care and not enough on basic math education.

Nothing prevents a province from allocating more to health care, allocating less, listing or delisting covered services, assigning more or less to any other spending priority, or raising provincial taxes or user fees to accomplish their social agenda. But that would come with a political cost, and there is always somebody to whine on their behalf and help them avoid making the hard decisions required by reality. Now who might that be?

[Keepitsimple]

Those "cap in hand" people you mention have the responsibility to administer health care. They now have to do it with cuts to their xfer payments. I hope you don't ever end up cap in hand going to a hospital.

Yes they do - and they should get on with it! There have been no cuts to federal healthcare money - it's gone up every year and will continue to rise by no less than 3% and arguably, often more. Here's a link that will clearly show how Federal Health expenditures have risen. As you can see, it dropped quite a bit in the 90's as the previous government "balanced the budget" on the backs of the provinces - but has been climbing continuously since about 2002.

Link: http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/his-eng.asp

[On Guard for Thee]

We've been through all this before. Under the previous (Martin) plan, the xfers went up 6%.year. After 2018 it can go up as low as 3%/year. I am not saying I have the expertice to say that the previous system is the only one that will work effectively, but I do understand basic math. It would be nice if Harper would perhaps attend a meeting with the provinces once in a blue moon and at least give us some kind of idea that there was some type of cummulative effort on what I consider a very precious system Canada has.

[waldo]

Yes they do - and they should get on with it! There have been no cuts to federal healthcare money - it's gone up every year and will continue to rise by no less than 3% and arguably, often more. Here's a link that will clearly show how Federal Health expenditures have risen. As you can see, it dropped quite a bit in the 90's as the previous government "balanced the budget" on the backs of the provinces - but has been climbing continuously since about 2002.

Link: http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/his-eng.asp

no - absolutely not! As OGFT just points out in the preceding post... and a dozen others like it in the thread associated with this post:

[waldo]

It would be nice if Harper would perhaps attend a meeting with the provinces once in a blue moon and at least give us some kind of idea that there was some type of cummulative effort on what I consider a very precious system Canada has.

yes! As pointedly reflects on this subject, Harper refused to meet with the Premiers in the 2-years leadup to the expiration of the Health Accord... refused to consider any option to extend and/or renew the Health Accord. Of course not... that would only get in the way of what he/Harper Conservatives did by imposing the latest health care changes.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes I suspect the Harper agenda is carved in roughly the same medium as those "thou shalts" that we had handed to us some time ago. Did they originate in Ottawa as well?