SHAME! Our 'Health Care" is the pits in comparison. :(

[overthere]

You said it's not a federal responsibility. The federal government has made it their responsibility through the CHA, as he rightfully pointed out.

Delivery of health care services is a provincial responsibility,, with the relatively minor exceptions of people like military and some First Nations.

Funding of health care services is mostly provincial, but the feds control enough transfer payments to have a dog in the fight. The CHA is primarily meant to provide equality of service to all Canadians, but of course also allows the feds to dictate terms to the provinces.

[cybercoma]

Delivery of health care services is a provincial responsibility,, with the relatively minor exceptions of people like military and some First Nations.

Funding of health care services is mostly provincial, but the feds control enough transfer payments to have a dog in the fight. The CHA is primarily meant to provide equality of service to all Canadians, but of course also allows the feds to dictate terms to the provinces.

It would have saved you time to cut and paste my earlier post than write your own here.

[overthere]

It would have saved you time to cut and paste my earlier post than write your own here.

Thanks for your valuable input.

[Argus]

Harper will have us in a f'ed up US system if we keep him in power. He likes funding private enterprise with taxpayer money.

Except we've already established that funding for health care is perfectly adequate in Ontario, that we spend more than a number of European jurisdictions which seem to have much better health care.

Your comment reveals both that you haven't bothered to read through any of the recent posts and that you haven't bothered to apply your mind to anything other than your knee-jerk hate of Harper.

[Argus]

Paid directly for services renderd according to government guidelines. The difference is, no middle man. That's why our system is moreeffective and cheaper.

Except our system is not more effective, nor is it cheaper. Ignore the US. There is no point trying to compare out system to theirs. Theirs is insane. I'm comparing ours to sane countries with national health care systems.

[Argus]

What I'm saying I'm afraid Harper will do is take healthcare out of government hands.

When? He's been in power for ten years now, with a majority government for some time, and he hasn't made the slightest move in that direction.

[Argus]

Well, after all that at least everyone should know that Harper is trying to destroy our health care system by cutting federal funding. He's in bed with the Fraser institute and that should tell us all we need to know about him. At least everyone except Argus will have got it by now.

Except he hasn't cut health care funding, and as already established, our funding for health care is higher than in a number of European countries which seem to have better health care than us.

[On Guard for Thee]

When? He's been in power for ten years now, with a majority government for some time, and he hasn't made the slightest move in that direction.

It's actually coming up 8 years, and yes he has cut funding.

[Argus]

It's actually coming up 8 years, and yes he has cut funding.

Prove it.

Btw, Jean Chretien most definitely cut funding for health care. Was he trying to destroy the health care system too?

Edited June 13, 2014 by Argus

[On Guard for Thee]

Prove it.

Btw, Jean Chretien most definitely cut funding for health care. Was he trying to destroy the health care system too?

Well he was elected Jan 23 2006. You do the math. And then read this over

.http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/26/ottawas-overhaul-of-health-care-funding-has-left-enormous-fiscal-gap-for-provinces-pbo-warns/

[Argus]

Well he was elected Jan 23 2006. You do the math. And then read this over

.http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/26/ottawas-overhaul-of-health-care-funding-has-left-enormous-fiscal-gap-for-provinces-pbo-warns/

The PBO’s annual long-term fiscal sustainability report released Thursday says the Harper government’s decision to scale back the growth in Canada Health Transfer payments means provincial governments will increasingly struggle to afford health-care services for their citizens.

They're not cutting. They're just not growing them as fast. The provinces need to get their escalating costs under control. They're the ones who manage the systems.

[cybercoma]

The PBO’s annual long-term fiscal sustainability report released Thursday says the Harper government’s decision to scale back the growth in Canada Health Transfer payments means provincial governments will increasingly struggle to afford health-care services for their citizens.

They're not cutting. They're just not growing them as fast. The provinces need to get their escalating costs under control. They're the ones who manage the systems.

how do you suppose they get the escalating costs in order? Soylent Green? We have an aging population; the costs will continue to rise all else being equal.

[Michael Hardner]

how do you suppose they get the escalating costs in order? Soylent Green? We have an aging population; the costs will continue to rise all else being equal.

The first thing to do is to create a platform for public dialogue that can discuss proposed solutions for the problem. Then it will be on us to reflect maturely on those solutions.

Something has to change, and raising taxes isn't going to be the entire solution.

Once we decide on those parameters, then we can move forward.

[Argus]

how do you suppose they get the escalating costs in order? Soylent Green? We have an aging population; the costs will continue to rise all else being equal.

Aren't we facing exactly the same issues as many European jurisdictions?

Look. Here's how I see it. Country A spends $1000 on health care and has long waits for everything from ER to hip replacement surgeries, long waits to see specialists, and shortages of doctors. Country B spends $1000 on health care and has no shortage of doctors and no waits for ER or specialists or surgeries. So it seems to me that the issue does not involve money. It involves something else. What are we spending our money on that others aren't? What systems do they have in place which we don't? Why is there even a shortage of doctors given how many people want to be doctors? None of this is just about the evil Stephen Harper hating the world and wanting people to die.

Just to start. We don't have enough doctors because the provinces limited the number of places in medical school and because the hospitals limit the number of residencies -- and often give those residency positions to foreign doctors whose governments are willing to pay their salaries in order to get them trained up.

How about another thought. A lot of people have suggested of late that money could be saved by elminating the Catholic school systems to end duplication and waste. Well, why do we need twelve or thirteen separate government medical insurance agencies? Maybe combining them into one national system would save a lot of money and duplication.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Aren't we facing exactly the same issues as many European jurisdictions?

Yes, and from what I've read facing the same issues as countries that didn't have a baby boom.

Health care costs go up unless there's a way to keep them in check.

Look. Here's how I see it. Country A spends $1000 on health care and has long waits for everything from ER to hip replacement surgeries, long waits to see specialists, and shortages of doctors. Country B spends $1000 on health care and has no shortage of doctors and no waits for ER or specialists or surgeries. So it seems to me that the issue does not involve money. It involves something else. What are we spending our money on that others aren't? What systems do they have in place which we don't? Why is there even a shortage of doctors given how many people want to be doctors? None of this is just about the evil Stephen Harper hating the world and wanting people to die.

Yes, excellent questions. And another question - why can't we resolve these problems ? Why can't we change the system ? Why is everything boiled down to US-vs-Canada cheerleading and xenophobia when the discussion comes up ?

Maybe combining them into one national system would save a lot of money and duplication.

I think creating a separate public to deal with system change would go a long way to putting in major changes. These things won't get done if they are played out via traditional media and their limited one-note responses.

Ontario is working on citizens' councils to confer on such things. An online version could work if it catches on with people of all political affiliations.

[monty16]

Yes, and from what I've read facing the same issues as countries that didn't have a baby boom.

Health care costs go up unless there's a way to keep them in check.

Yes, excellent questions. And another question - why can't we resolve these problems ? Why can't we change the system ? Why is everything boiled down to US-vs-Canada cheerleading and xenophobia when the discussion comes up ?

I think creating a separate public to deal with system change would go a long way to putting in major changes. These things won't get done if they are played out via traditional media and their limited one-note responses.

Ontario is working on citizens' councils to confer on such things. An online version could work if it catches on with people of all political affiliations.

The reason why the comparison is made between the US and Canada's health care system is because the rabid right think that the US has a wonderful, peachy good system. In fact they usually claim it's the best in the world. And Canada's rabid right are willing to go along with it because they hate their fellow Canadians and want to not have to support them.

Argus makes up stories to suit his agenda. Country A, the US spends about twice as much as Canada, country B, and gets lesser quality than Canada. And country C's in Europe spend about the same as Canada and get about the same, except in very socially responsible countries such as France and that's because they ignore the rantings of the rabid right who they understand are just haters.

The best way to improve health care and heatlh care costs in a country is to ignore or sideline the rabid right. Their agenda is to destroy any social responsibility people show toward their fellow citizens. Look to the US for an example!

[bush_cheney2004]

....Yes, excellent questions. And another question - why can't we resolve these problems ? Why can't we change the system ? Why is everything boiled down to US-vs-Canada cheerleading and xenophobia when the discussion comes up ?

Because that is the Canadian way. See the book: Yankee Go Home: Canadians and Anti-Americanism by J. L. Granatstein

Edited June 14, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

The reason why the comparison is made between the US and Canada's health care system is because the rabid right think that the US has a wonderful, peachy good system. In fact they usually claim it's the best in the world. And Canada's rabid right are willing to go along with it because they hate their fellow Canadians and want to not have to support them.

I think that the left bring up the US system quite often too. I'm sure both sides do it, and that serves a good purpose but our system's flaws and challenges aren't brought up as often and in the same way.

Argus makes up stories to suit his agenda.

Not in my experience. I argue against him as often or more than I argue with him and he is usually pretty good about backing up his facts.

Country A, the US spends about twice as much as Canada, country B, and gets lesser quality than Canada. And country C's in Europe spend about the same as Canada and get about the same, except in very socially responsible countries such as France and that's because they ignore the rantings of the rabid right who they understand are just haters.

Ok - let's get with the cites then.

I'll start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita

France spends significantly less per capita than Canada.

The best way to improve health care and heatlh care costs in a country is to ignore or sideline the rabid right. Their agenda is to destroy any social responsibility people show toward their fellow citizens. Look to the US for an example!

I disagree with this 100%. You're advocating for doing nothing, which is ridiculous really.

[bush_cheney2004]

France spends significantly less per capita than Canada.

France's well regarded health care system is an n-tier public-private mix of delivery and funding. Any mention of this in Canada (where some aspects already exist), is political, "you touched the third rail" suicide.

Edited June 14, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

France's well regarded health care system is an n-tier public-private mix of delivery and funding. Any mention of this in Canada (where some aspects already exist), is political, "you touched the third rail" suicide.

Well, exactly.

But as the poster already demonstrated, healthcare discussions exist primary to make us feel superior to the Americans - not to actually confer on improving our system.

[bush_cheney2004]

...But as the poster already demonstrated, healthcare discussions exist primary to make us feel superior to the Americans - not to actually confer on improving our system.

This is a social and political outcome having little to do with the nuts and bolts of health care funding and delivery. Canadians still pay dearly....wait a long time....and grow frustrated because of the expectation(s) that have been set by such a "superior feeling" discussion. "Even the Americans" (using another form of this Canadian dynamic), have managed to change their health care "system", albeit with much conflict (i.e. ACA).

[Michael Hardner]

This is a social and political outcome having little to do with the nuts and bolts of health care funding and delivery. Canadians still pay dearly....wait a long time....and grow frustrated because of the expectation(s) that have been set by such a "superior feeling" discussion.

I don't hear any sense of frustration.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't hear any sense of frustration.

There is ample evidence of frustration with a lack of GP gatekeepers, wait times, underfunding, web site benchmarks, pharma, vision, dental...even parking ramp fees !

Perhaps you may call it something else....

Edited June 14, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[monty16]

I think that the left bring up the US system quite often too. I'm sure both sides do it, and that serves a good purpose but our system's flaws and challenges aren't brought up as often and in the same way.

Not in my experience. I argue against him as often or more than I argue with him and he is usually pretty good about backing up his facts.

Ok - let's get with the cites then.

I'll start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita

France spends significantly less per capita than Canada.

I disagree with this 100%. You're advocating for doing nothing, which is ridiculous really.

Then take France as an example and try to explain their #1 rating in the world. I'm going to suggest that it's because of their socially responsible attitudes toward their people. You find another reason or maybe try to take it away from them.

The best thing France's people have done for themselves is to ignore the rabid right haters.

Liberty, Egality, Fraternity. It shows. The US knows nothing about anything other than liberty. Ask one! In fact they hate France for what France is and they don't mind saying so.

There's something for you to talk about if you really want to move the conversation away from strictly money.

[waldo]

Why is everything boiled down to US-vs-Canada cheerleading and xenophobia when the discussion comes up?

it's not! A good example is the other concurrently running thread, the 'dead last' American health care system/outcomes thread. Within that thread, several American studies have been provided to offer comparative country review. The thread has included meaningful and critical review on where Canada stands and can/needs to improve relative to other country's offering universal health care. Of course, by it's very nature, and the critical 'by Americans for Americans' summary findings within all the studies, there has also been discussion concerning universal/single payer versus the 'hodge-podge' that is the U.S. healthcare system... and, of course, there has been pointed criticism of the U.S. healthcare system and outcomes based on the summary study findings.

unfortunately any avenue for continued meaningful discussion within that thread has been long compromised by a single MLW member, "the deflector", who refuses to acknowledge the studies, who refuses to accept comparative critical findings of the U.S. relative to other countries, refuses to accept the pointed U.S. failings and needed areas for improvement... and, alternatively, dedicates his time within that thread to extend upon his board missive; i.e., to stir the pot, deflect, derail and, ultimately, shit on any opportunities for meaningful discussion. By the very nature of that thread's purposeful deflection... some are calling it trolling. The deflection completely centers on the "cheerleading/xenophobia" you speak of - driven by the purposeful intent of the deflector... intent that holds absolutely zero purpose in having any degree of meaningful discussion.

and now, the deflector presumes to take his act into this thread... he is totally unwilling to acknowledge or discuss the failings of the U.S. healthcare system/outcomes as presented in that other thread..... but he is certainly more than willing to presume to offer critical comment toward Canada's healthcare in this thread. Of course, he is... completely in line with your pointed "cheerleading/xenophobia" statement.