NDP , Harper's safety not worth the price to send over amoured car

[scribblet]

you're still avoiding the issue moving the goalposts building an alternate reality...

Only in your alternate reality, you turn it into something else if you wish - enjoy.

[scribblet]

Good point the democrats have ''blame bush'' so the left up here should also have thier slogan of ''blame harper'' So the left better get use to USING that slogan for the next 10 years. LMFAO

Mr. Harper gets the blame for everything LOL Funny thing isn't it, the papers all refer to "Harper Boosts Security" as a for instance, when in fact, it's the RCMP doing the boosting according to needs.

[WWWTT]

this is the oppositions job, question everything, doubt everything, scrutinize everything...this is what should be done at all times and even more so when we have a government that like no other before seeks to control/limit every source of information...

question the RCMP...well ya, they have proven very capable of lying in the past to cover their misdeeds, they don't get a free pass...

Well said wyly!!!

If cybercoma had his way the NDP would get thrown under the the bus faster than you can say "where did Ignatief go?"

It is exactly the job of the opposition to question everything the government does!No ifs,ands,buts or maybes!

The day we stop questioning the government and assume any government agency is above scrutiny will be the lowest day in Canadian democracy!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Better to blame Harper for it.

Do you sincerely believe that the RCMP are above the PM?Or that the RCMP can over ride the PM?

Who do you think is at the top of the totem pole?

WWWTT

Edited November 10, 2012 by WWWTT

[login]

Sorry but we shouldn't be letting terrorists dictate to us where we go and when. If you have a problem with the security detail I suggest that you call the RCMP to complain as politicians have nothing to do with security decisions made by the RCMP. The PM gives the RCMP their itinerary and the RCMP make it safe to happen.

You do understand that the RCMP protect the PM and his family outside of the country too right?

I'm not going to waste my time talking to the RCMP, I'd contact a MP if I felt the need to complain about the RCMP or the RCMP civillian commission if it was direct abuse, or I would lay an information personally if I was aware of other issues of an indictable nature. (and likely due to blue wall and justice system corruption, personally complain through media available as the JP orJudge would likely ignore the information because it would put the justice system into disrepute)

Its not terrorists dictating it is common sense dictating. Terrorists can be anywherein the world and they can strike anywhere in the world, an armoured car ain't going to stop that alone. It justincreases the level of violence associated with any attack.

The PM shouldn't be requiring the RCMP to protect it, if the PM has security needs it should be done throgh national defence not the RCMP, in relation to foreign activities. That is why embassies have military attache's in part.

Also parliament and the opposition can question the activities of any government department or agency etc.. that is their job. Much like it is the RCMP's job to insure peace and good order in Canada, not in India.

The bottom line is RCMP should only be concerned with Canada, not Canadian activities in foreign states except as it pertains to investigations linked to Canada stemming from foreign countries, but Canada is not a state which advocates for poilcing of foreign states, nor does the mandate of the RCMP extent to foreign proection services, nor should the budget of the RCMP be wasted on foreign protection activities.

It is the duty of members who are peace officers, subject to the orders of the Commissioner,

• (a) to perform all duties that are assigned to peace officers in relation to the preservation of the peace, the prevention of crime and of offences against the laws of Canada and the laws in force in any province in which they may be employed, and the apprehension of criminals and offenders and others who may be lawfully taken into custody;
  
• (b) to execute all warrants, and perform all duties and services in relation thereto, that may, under this Act or the laws of Canada or the laws in force in any province, be lawfully executed and performed by peace officers;
  
• (c) to perform all duties that may be lawfully performed by peace officers in relation to the escort and conveyance of convicts and other persons in custody to or from any courts, places of punishment or confinement, asylums or other places; and
  
• (d) to perform such other duties and functions as are prescribed by the Governor in Council or the Commissioner.
  

It is abuse for governor in council to be eating up Canadian police resources, to combat against militants in India orany other place in the world, that is what National Defence is suppose to do in a state of war or with the blessing of the government in that part of the world advocating Canadian forces to be deployed to combat militancy.

Edited November 11, 2012 by login

[scribblet]

Do you sincerely believe that the RCMP are above the PM?Or that the RCMP can over ride the PM?

Who do you think is at the top of the totem pole?

WWWTT

I believe the RCMP does their job as required and probably reports their findings and conclusions to the PMO. I don't see why the PMO would reject their recommendations. That's all it is, this is just mountains out of molehills, milking a non-scandal for all it's worth to score political points.

One would think that the trade agreement itself would be more important than the cost of security.

[login]

I'm not going to waste my time talking to the RCMP, I'd contact a MP if I felt the need to complain about the RCMP or the RCMP civillian commission if it was direct abuse, or I would lay an information personally if I was aware of other issues of an indictable nature. (and likely due to blue wall and justice system corruption, personally complain through media available as the JP orJudge would likely ignore the information because it would put the justice system into disrepute)

Its not terrorists dictating it is common sense dictating. Terrorists can be anywherein the world and they can strike anywhere in the world, an armoured car ain't going to stop that alone. It justincreases the level of violence associated with any attack.

The PM shouldn't be requiring the RCMP to protect it, if the PM has security needs it should be done throgh national defence not the RCMP, in relation to foreign activities. That is why embassies have military attache's in part.

Also parliament and the opposition can question the activities of any government department or agency etc.. that is their job. Much like it is the RCMP's job to insure peace and good order in Canada, not in India.

The bottom line is RCMP should only be concerned with Canada, not Canadian activities in foreign states except as it pertains to investigations linked to Canada stemming from foreign countries, but Canada is not a state which advocates for poilcing of foreign states, nor does the mandate of the RCMP extent to foreign proection services, nor should the budget of the RCMP be wasted on foreign protection activities.

The point is the only way the RCMP is involved if the PM and cabinet asked them to, which is a conflict of interest for them to be using the powers of governor in Council to get private security for their trips outside of Canada.That is DND's job to exert in foreign territories I can' say it enough.

DND CF intelligence, should be doing this by default, this has nothing to do with the RCMP except escorting the guy to the airport.

Edited November 11, 2012 by login

[WWWTT]

I believe the RCMP does their job as required and probably reports their findings and conclusions to the PMO.

Man I wish I had you as a costumer!

WWWTT

[Smallc]

The point is the only way the RCMP is involved if the PM and cabinet asked them to,

No, it is the job of the RCMP to protect the PM.

[login]

No, it is the job of the RCMP to protect the PM.

No its not.

The PM has no special protection law.

Protect the PM is no where in the RCMP Act, read the law.

Show me where it says that: http://laws-lois.jus.../eng/acts/R-10/

Now sure if they have reasonable grounds to beleive someones life is subject to a criminal offence they are warranted to react to that, but in Canada, its not their job to police India, that is what the police in India are for.

However, he is a private person, and if he has security needs he should contact ADT and private security firms, he gets paid enough to hire a body gaurd.

He could hire more than one out of CAD$317,574 and a free house.

http://www.adt.ca/sp...CFehDMgodIU0AqQ

$50000000 a year to protect that guy is nonsense. He means very little to Canadian National Security.

ADT is $40 a month, and they could gate off the sussex neighbourhood (I think the embassies should be ok with that too) and plop down a police station for "community policing" private RCMP honour gaurd from the tax payers pockets is nonsense.

Its not like an organized militant force couldn't take the compound anyway.

The building is only about 20m x 20m

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&tok=65yBMqO0NM-Pb_WMqXV_GA&pq=sussex+drive&cp=6&gs_id=2a&xhr=t&q=24+sussex+drive&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38093640&biw=1021&bih=411&wrapid=tljp1352616742263210&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Edited November 11, 2012 by login

[Smallc]

No its not.

The PM has no special protection law.

[scribblet]

It is the RCMP’s mandate to protect the PM.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pp/index-eng.htm

This isn’t about this particular issue but speaks to the RCMP’s mandate to protect the PM.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/09/06/f-politicians-security.html

At the federal level, the RCMP provides security for politicians, and for visiting foreign dignitaries, diplomats and other officials.

The RCMP's Prime Minister's Protection Detail provides security for Stephen Harper and his family, both in Canada and abroad. It has 120 full-time employees, according to an RCMP document obtained by Radio-Canada earlier this year.

Provincial police forces like the SQ provide security for premiers and others designated by the province.

The size of the security package a police force provides is based on a threat and risk assessment that is constantly reviewed.

---- "They have the expertise, they do the threat assessments," Murphy explains.

Giorno stresses the importance of the work by the officers on the security detail, and in his view, those assignments are now "for the best and most well-trained officers."

Increasing protection for the PM

Security for the prime minister is the RCMP's responsibility, Tim Murphy told CBC News. Murphy, then Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Paul Martin, watches the media scrums outside the House of Commons in Ottawa Feb. 12, 2004. (Jonathan Hayward/Canadian Press)

Under both Martin and Harper, the budget for security was set by the RCMP, not the Prime Minister's Office.

[cybercoma]

Well said wyly!!!

If cybercoma had his way the NDP would get thrown under the the bus faster than you can say "where did Ignatief go?"

It is exactly the job of the opposition to question everything the government does!No ifs,ands,buts or maybes!

The day we stop questioning the government and assume any government agency is above scrutiny will be the lowest day in Canadian democracy!

WWWTT

this is a straw man argument and I would appreciate it if you didn't mischaacterize what I'm saying in the future.

I did not at all say the RCMP "is above scrutiny" and I've been vocal about their treatment of First Nations and women in the force.

What I'm saying is criticizing them for security decisions they make about protecting the PM in the interest of austerity is ridiculous, especially coming from the party that criticizes austerity.

I'm not blindly partisan, waving the orange flag and cheerleading for the democrats. I actually want to see the party govern some day and will continue to criticize the things they do that will prevent that. This is one if those things.

[cybercoma]

I'm not going to waste my time talking to the RCMP, I'd contact a MP if I felt the need to complain about the RCMP or the RCMP civillian commission if it was direct abuse, or I would lay an information personally if I was aware of other issues of an indictable nature. (and likely due to blue wall and justice system corruption, personally complain through media available as the JP orJudge would likely ignore the information because it would put the justice system into disrepute)

Its not terrorists dictating it is common sense dictating. Terrorists can be anywherein the world and they can strike anywhere in the world, an armoured car ain't going to stop that alone. It justincreases the level of violence associated with any attack.

The PM shouldn't be requiring the RCMP to protect it, if the PM has security needs it should be done throgh national defence not the RCMP, in relation to foreign activities. That is why embassies have military attache's in part.

Also parliament and the opposition can question the activities of any government department or agency etc.. that is their job. Much like it is the RCMP's job to insure peace and good order in Canada, not in India.

The bottom line is RCMP should only be concerned with Canada, not Canadian activities in foreign states except as it pertains to investigations linked to Canada stemming from foreign countries, but Canada is not a state which advocates for poilcing of foreign states, nor does the mandate of the RCMP extent to foreign proection services, nor should the budget of the RCMP be wasted on foreign protection activities.

The RCMP acts as the Secret Service in Canada. Replacing it with a military branch merely changes the name. It makes no difference in this situation. They would still decide, based on their intel, how to handle security, not the PMO.

[bleeding heart]

I'm not blindly partisan, waving the orange flag and cheerleading for the democrats. I actually want to see the party govern some day and will continue to criticize the things they do that will prevent that. This is one if those things.

Hear, hear.

[wyly]

this is a straw man argument and I would appreciate it if you didn't mischaacterize what I'm saying in the future.

I did not at all say the RCMP "is above scrutiny" and I've been vocal about their treatment of First Nations and women in the force.

What I'm saying is criticizing them for security decisions they make about protecting the PM in the interest of austerity is ridiculous, especially coming from the party that criticizes austerity.

I'm not blindly partisan, waving the orange flag and cheerleading for the democrats. I actually want to see the party govern some day and will continue to criticize the things they do that will prevent that. This is one if those things.

but there is an issue here you others are repeatedly avoiding, the conflicting stories....the Indians claim the PM had at his disposal the best in Mercedes armored cars at every location, the PMO says that's not the case so someone is lying...and if it's the PMO/RCMP that is lying then there is an enormous unnecessary cost expenditure $588,000 return plus any trips within India, bev oda's OJ and limo service pales in comparison....to end the debate all the RCMP need do is show the Indians lied or that Mercedes armored cars are not as good as GM products...

[Smallc]

It isn't a conflicting report. You're simply not understanding the obvious. The RCMP obviously didn't find the Mercedes provided to be either safe enough or trustworthy, so they brought over two armoured vehicles from Canada, one being the PMs Cadillac.

[cybercoma]

Smallc answered it.

I'm not sure why you would want to off-shore decisions about our Prime Minister's security to India, like we do with call centre jobs, but the RCMP made a decision.

I would much rather the RCMP over-protect our Prime Ministers than having to look back after an incident and question why there wasn't enough protection there. Even if that Prime Minister is Stephen Harper.

[wyly]

Smallc answered it.

I'm not sure why you would want to off-shore decisions about our Prime Minister's security to India, like we do with call centre jobs, but the RCMP made a decision.

I would much rather the RCMP over-protect our Prime Ministers than having to look back after an incident and question why there wasn't enough protection there. Even if that Prime Minister is Stephen Harper.

nope you and smallc are still ducking and side stepping the question, the RCMP's assessment carries no weight here they've proven to be less than honest...the RCMP has done or said nothing to justify the selection other than "no comment" coincidentally the same answer as the PMO....the Indians have the latest in armored car technology which would have cost us 35K rental for the entire trip...the PMs car and the Indian's Mercedes specifications aren't state secrets so why the no comment...

[Guest]

this is a straw man argument and I would appreciate it if you didn't mischaacterize what I'm saying in the future.

Yeah, but posters like bcsapper don't believe that's true. When you're operating in a different reality than others, common ground is impossible.

[Bonam]

nope you and smallc are still ducking and side stepping the question, the RCMP's assessment carries no weight here they've proven to be less than honest...the RCMP has done or said nothing to justify the selection other than "no comment"

The RCMP does not have to justify the details of security procedures for the travel abroad of our government officials. In fact, discussing and detailing such procedures would compromise the very security they are trying to ensure.

[bush_cheney2004]

Good point, buy the penny pinching mindset eschews any such understanding or logic. Except when it comes to a Gun Registry.

[login]

The RCMP acts as the Secret Service in Canada. Replacing it with a military branch merely changes the name. It makes no difference in this situation. They would still decide, based on their intel, how to handle security, not the PMO.

It isn't the RCMP's mandate under the RCMP Act, it is a corruption of the RCMP.

Unless you are calling the PM a criminal in need of escort, its not their job.

If anything it would be under the mandate of the miiltary.

Attorney general of province may requisition aid

278. On receiving a requisition in writing made by an attorney general under section 277, the Chief of the Defence Staff, or such officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate, shall, subject to such directions as the Minister considers appropriate in the circumstances and in consultation with that attorney general and the attorney general of any other province that may be affected, call out such part of the Canadian Forces as the Chief of the Defence Staff or that officer considers necessary for the purpose of suppressing or preventing any actual riot or disturbance or any riot or disturbance that is considered as likely to occur.

• R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 278;
  
• 2004, c. 15, s. 79.
  

Previous Version

Marginal note:Form of requisition

National Defence Act, do hereby require you to call out the Canadian Forces or such part thereof as you consider necessary for the purpose of suppressing (or preventing or dealing with) the riot or disturbance.

Dated at ............, this ............ day of ............, 19.......

........................................

Attorney General

• R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 279;
  
• R.S., 1985, c. 22 (4th Supp.), s. 75.
  

What requisition must state

• 281. Where a requisition is made under this Part, the attorney general of the province concerned shall, within seven days after the making of the requisition, cause an inquiry to be made into the circumstances that occasioned the calling out of the Canadian Forces or any part thereof, and the attorney general shall send a report on the circumstances to such member of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada as is designated by the Governor in Council for the purpose of this section.
  
  • R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 281;
    
  • 1995, c. 11, s. 44.
    

  Marginal note:When officers and non-commissioned members have powers of constables

  283. The Canadian Forces or any part thereof called out in aid of the civil power shall remain on duty, in such strength as the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate deems necessary or orders, until notification that the Canadian Forces are no longer required in aid of the civil power is received from the attorney general of the province concerned and, from time to time as in the opinion of the Chief of the Defence Staff the exigencies of the situation require, the Chief of the Defence Staff may increase or diminish the number of officers and non-commissioned members called out.

  • R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 283;
    
  • R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 60.
    

  [*]

  285. The moneys required to meet the expenses and costs occasioned by the calling out of the Canadian Forces as provided for in this Part and for the services rendered by them shall be paid out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund by the authority of the Governor in Council.

  • R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 285;
    
  • R.S., 1985, c. 22 (4th Supp.), s. 77.
    

Edited November 12, 2012 by login

[scribblet]

It isn't the RCMP's mandate under the RCMP Act, it is a corruption of the RCMP.

See post #115 it is their mandate. Even so, if you choose not to believe it fine, but the RCMP does and did assess the situation and acted accordingly.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pp/index-eng.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/09/06/f-politicians-security.html

[g_bambino]

It isn't the RCMP's mandate under the RCMP Act, it is a corruption of the RCMP.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, Part I, Section 4: "The Force may be employed in such places within or outside Canada as the Governor in Council prescribes."