NHL Lockout

[jbg]

I'm just glad that Canada and the northern cities of the U.S. are saved. End of the world averted. It is a great,exalted day.

[Guest Manny]

Is the NHL going allow its players to participate next year's olymoics in Sochi? The timing of the olympics hockey-tournament is a bit inconvenient as it is in the middle of the season. As it happens, when the olymoic final is on a sunday, on tuesday the finalists are already playing for their teams in the NHL.

Yes and we will be more than happy to kick your pansy Fin players ass

[bush_cheney2004]

Typical non-hockey comment. Stick to your football.

We do....just count the football TV contract money compared to professional Fighting on Ice in the NHL.

[The_Squid]

There are hardly any fights anymore.... You know not of what you speak. Or youre merely trolling.....again.....

[bush_cheney2004]

There are hardly any fights anymore.... You know not of what you speak. Or youre merely trolling.....again.....

Nonsense.....next you will tell me about the beauty of the NHL game wherein designated "goons" enforce order on the ice, protecting the "skill" players. Other leagues and international play put a stop to that crap years ago. Hockey is fine, but the NHL is one of the poorest yet most expensive version to watch in person. That's why many people don't.

[Boges]

Nonsense.....next you will tell me about the beauty of the NHL game wherein designated "goons" enforce order on the ice, protecting the "skill" players. Other leagues and international play put a stop to that crap years ago. Hockey is fine, but the NHL is one of the poorest yet most expensive version to watch in person. That's why many people don't.

I hope you're not trying to argue that fighting is the reason the NHL is less popular in the US. If people didn't like it, and they'd boo when it happens in the arena.

[Black Dog]

We do....just count the football TV contract money compared to professional Fighting on Ice in the NHL.

People love them some National Domestic Violence League.

[segnosaur]

We do....just count the football TV contract money compared to professional Fighting on Ice in the NHL.

There are a lot of reasons why NFL Football is more financially successful than hockey, but I doubt fighting is one of the reasons.

The weather/climate over much of the U.S. is not condusive to getting kids to play the game, the lack of hockey as a major historical pastime. Whether fighting is banned would not influence the popularity of the game, and the whole "fighting" argument is bascially used by people who don't have any real arguments to use.

[bush_cheney2004]

There are a lot of reasons why NFL Football is more financially successful than hockey, but I doubt fighting is one of the reasons.

Football is a violent sport by design....but gratuitous violence and sanctioned fighting is not tolerated by the league and steps are taken to stem such behaviour. Just ask the N.O. Saints.

The weather/climate over much of the U.S. is not condusive to getting kids to play the game, the lack of hockey as a major historical pastime. Whether fighting is banned would not influence the popularity of the game, and the whole "fighting" argument is bascially used by people who don't have any real arguments to use.

Fine....for those of us paying $150 or more per ticket to actually see hockey, please reserve a period at the end of the contest for all fans and players who love a good fight to stay and watch. There are legal and injury related reasons why fighting should be "banned". Those who continue to advocate for it as "part of the game" don't have any real arguments either.

Edited January 8, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[segnosaur]

Hockey is fine, but the NHL is one of the poorest yet most expensive version to watch in person. That's why many people don't.

Your argument is flawed on several levels.

First of all, it is not necessarily the "most expensive version to watch".

Average Ticket prices:

NFL: $74.99

NBA: $49.47

NHL: $49.66

So, the NHL is pretty much on par with the NBA in ticket costs, and falls well short of the NFL.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=-owSi55tLZAC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=average+ticket+price+nba+nhl&source=bl&ots=4BGFZdTQMF&sig=Zi30yxSP5PFtwLiDPNT7r8Tv4Wg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nnXsUPe_MtOH0QGN3IGQCg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=average%20ticket%20price%20nba%20nhl&f=false

Secondly, I think you have the cause/effect messed up. Prices are high because people like the game enough to be willing to pay the prices.

Edited January 8, 2013 by segnosaur

[Boges]

Your argument is flawed on several levels.

First of all, it is not necessarily the "most expensive version to watch".

Average Ticket prices:

NFL: $74.99

NBA: $49.47

NHL: $49.66

So, the NHL is pretty much on par with the NBA in ticket costs, and falls well short of the NFL.

http://books.google....nba nhl&f=false

Secondly, I think you have the cause/effect messed up. Prices are high because people like the game enough to be willing to pay the prices.

Interestingly in the Toronto area, Hockey and Basketball tickets are absurdly high while Baseball tickets are OK. (if the Jays become serious contenders that could change)

Then going across the Niagara River to see a Buffalo Bills game is very cheap. Maybe that's just because we pay more for everything in big cities.

I'm sure in markets like Dallas and Columbus they're giving tickets away. But I'm sure seeing Ohio State or the Dallas Cowboys football is very expensive.

[segnosaur]

Football is a violent sport by design....but gratuitous violence and sanctioned fighting is not tolerated by the league and steps are taken to stem such behaviour. Just ask the N.O. Saints.

Irrelevat point.

Oh, and please define 'gratuitous vionence' and 'not tolerated'. After all, I've seen plays with things like face-masking, spearing and late hits (which could, in theory, lead to significant injuries). The team was penalized, but the players were allowed to continue playing. No ejection from the game, no suspension. Does allowing the player to continue after such dangerous plays constitute 'tolerating gratuitous violence'?

There are legal and injury related reasons why fighting should be "banned".

Yet you didn't provide any such reasons in your previous 2 posts. Instead, all you did was refer to "TV contract money" (which I assume you used as a reference to overall sporting popularity.

Those who continue to advocate for it as "part of the game" don't have any real arguments either.

Please point to my previous post where I actually claimed fighting was "part of the game".

You won't find any. And there's a reason for that: I wasn't advocating for (or against) fighting.

Instead, I was debunking the rather foolish premise that "fighting keeps hockey from being popular". That is an incorrect assumption (apart from whatever other arguments that can be made against fighting.

Yes, non-fans may occasionally joke about "going to a fight and a hockey game broke out" but those people were never going to be fans in the first place.

[bush_cheney2004]

Your argument is flawed on several levels.

First of all, it is not necessarily the "most expensive version to watch".

Except when it is...depending on the market. I can't buy an average priced ticket.

So, the NHL is pretty much on par with the NBA in ticket costs, and falls well short of the NFL.

Right...and fans will pay more for a superior product with far fewer games (scarcity). Hockey fans have been lamenting rising prices (and player salaries) for years as the NHL lacks big media contracts to bring in big revenue. Gate receipts remain the primary source of revenue.

Secondly, I think you have the cause/effect messed up. Prices are high because people like the game enough to be willing to pay the prices.

Some markets yes...others.....no. Prices are higher because other revenue sources cannot match those of other competing professional sports product.

[Boges]

Football is doing a better job at hockey trying to reduce stuff like head injuries actually. Automatic 15 yard penalty if you touch another player's helmet with yours.

Quarterbacks are also treated with kid gloves.

[segnosaur]

Interestingly in the Toronto area, Hockey and Basketball tickets are absurdly high while Baseball tickets are OK. (if the Jays become serious contenders that could change)

Baseball tickets tend to be cheaper due to the economics of the game: More games played (twice as many as hockey, more than 10 times as many as football) and larger stadiums (the skydome has twice the capacity of the Air Canada center) means that teams can get roughly the same gate revenue even with lower ticket prices.

Then going across the Niagara River to see a Buffalo Bills game is very cheap. Maybe that's just because we pay more for everything in big cities.

That's probably part of it too... demand drives ticket prices. More people in a particular area means more sports fans, and the teams can charge more and still fill the arena.

I'm sure in markets like Dallas and Columbus they're giving tickets away. But I'm sure seeing Ohio State or the Dallas Cowboys football is very expensive.

Yeah I think in the reference I provided the Cow-persons have the highest average ticket price in the NFL.

[bush_cheney2004]

Irrelevat point.

Oh, and please define 'gratuitous vionence' and 'not tolerated'. After all, I've seen plays with things like face-masking, spearing and late hits (which could, in theory, lead to significant injuries). The team was penalized, but the players were allowed to continue playing. No ejection from the game, no suspension. Does allowing the player to continue after such dangerous plays constitute 'tolerating gratuitous violence'?

No, because such violence is defined on a rules continuum that stops short of outright fighting. Fighting like drama queens with the ritual of removing gloves and posing like male bucks during rut. What does such a display have to do with the game ? Should they be able to use handguns (in the U.S.) or knives (in Canada) ?

Yet you didn't provide any such reasons in your previous 2 posts. Instead, all you did was refer to "TV contract money" (which I assume you used as a reference to overall sporting popularity.

Injury to players and legal liability should be plain enough. Several cities actually contemplated assault arrests for the most flagrant examples of fighting...for any sport. The fans sure get arrested for such behaviour.

Please point to my previous post where I actually claimed fighting was "part of the game".

It's not just about you....you know that response has been part and parcel of fighting proponents for years. The NHL knows that fighting attracts a certain portion of the fan base and it cannot afford to lose that part of the ticket gate.

Players engaged in ritual hockey fighting should be ejected from the game, IMHO, instead of being watched by league officials with crossed arms.

Edited January 8, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[segnosaur]

Except when it is...depending on the market. I can't buy an average priced ticket.

Your exact statement was: ...the NHL is one of the poorest yet most expensive version to watch in person. I've shown that that is not the case.

And yes, there are variations from market to market. Some markets are more favorable to hockey, others to baseball, others to football.

Right...and fans will pay more for a superior product with far fewer games (scarcity).

That will only work if its a sport which, for whatever reason, is engrained into the culture. (The term 'superior' is based pretty much on personal opinion. I actually like football, but I would neither consider it superior or inferior to hockey.)

As I pointed out before... the fact that most areas of the U.S. are not condusive to kids playing hockey at a young age means that it will likely never be a significant part of U.S. culture... Outdoor rinks are unavailable in the southern U.S., ice time is expensive, and every player has to be equipped with at least a skate and sticks to even play a game of shinny hockey. Compare that to football, where all kids need is a single football and an open field in order to play a game of touch football.

Hockey fans have been lamenting rising prices (and player salaries) for years as the NHL lacks big media contracts to bring in big revenue. Gate receipts remain the primary source of revenue.

Yes it has been. What's your point?

Some markets yes...others.....no. Prices are higher because other revenue sources cannot match those of other competing professional sports product.

I'd suggest taking a course in Economics 101.

Teams charge what they think the market will handle. What other sports charge is irrelevant to them. They have no need to match the revenue of the NFL or NBA. They will charge as much as they can because owners want as much profit as possible, not because they see some NFL owner with a large TV contract.

Or do you really think there are team owners out there who think "I could easily earn a few extra million in profit by charging more

Edited January 8, 2013 by segnosaur

[bush_cheney2004]

Your exact statement was: ...the NHL is one of the poorest yet most expensive version to watch in person. I've shown that that is not the case.

Poorest (i.e. revenue sources) and ticket cost expense go hand in hand. There are also fewer seats available in smaller venues compared to the NFL.

And yes, there are variations from market to market. Some markets are more favorable to hockey, others to baseball, others to football.

Obviously...as stated.

That will only work if its a sport which, for whatever reason, is engrained into the culture. (The term 'superior' is based pretty much on personal opinion. I actually like football, but I would neither consider it superior or inferior to hockey.)

"Superior" is personal opinion, but market penetration and audience share also give insights into what fans find superior. The NHL is not a product that competes in a Canadian sports vacuum.

As I pointed out before... the fact that most areas of the U.S. are not condusive to kids playing hockey at a young age means that it will likely never be a significant part of U.S. culture... Outdoor rinks are unavailable in the southern U.S., ice time is expensive, and every player has to be equipped with at least a skate and sticks to even play a game of shinny hockey. Compare that to football, where all kids need is a single football and an open field in order to play a game of touch football.

Perhaps, but hockey is actually growing faster in the U.S. than in Canada.

Since the early 1990s, when the NHL embarked on its aggressive expansion into the U.S., the number of Americans playing the game has ballooned by 257 per cent. Canada’s registration levels have remained comparatively flat, averaging 550,000 over the last decade.

http://www2.macleans...ates-of-hockey/

Yes it has been. What's your point?

My point is that the NHL is more one dimensional when it comes to generating revenue. It is far more dependent on gate receipts.

I'd suggest taking a course in Economics 101.

Did that over 30 years ago....aced it. Teams in American markets with multiple professional sports choices are cognizant of and responsive to venue prices, all the way down to the cost of parking.

Or do you really think there are team owners out there who think "I could easily earn a few extra million in profit by charging more

I am not a team owner, but my former boss (Peter Karmanos) was/is. He would bore us to tears with business analogies using his hockey team plaything. Wanted a salary cap and got it. Raised ticket prices and got it. Locked out players and fans too (2004). Owners do a lot of funny things...they took Economics 101 too.

Edited January 8, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[-TSS-]

There is a loyal fan-base for ice-hockey all over Canada and also in the US in places like NYC, Detroit, Boston and Chicago but the question is whether people in Florida or Carolina will still remember that the sport exists.

[jbg]

Interestingly in the Toronto area, Hockey and Basketball tickets are absurdly high while Baseball tickets are OK. (if the Jays become serious contenders that could change)

That's because of the Mapleleaf's winning ways.