bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Well, we know they aren't really conservatives. No true Scotsman and all that. You're predicting a response, and your prediction has teeth. Kraychik has elsewhere informed me that the most obviously arch-conservative forces on Earth--theocratic jihadists--are in fact...yep...leftists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Insults, right after I commended the thread. I'm not sure what the reason is for the timing of that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Islam is, after all, the West's longest standing enemy. The Battle of Lepanto wasn't against JWs. Most immigrant Muslims aren't even slightly an "enemy." A few radicals here and there, sure. I remain stubbornly unafraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Most immigrant Muslims aren't even slightly an "enemy." A few radicals here and there, sure. I remain stubbornly unafraid. Islam...not individual Muslims. Tarek Fatah isn't the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) See...you do have a problem with the word enemy. The indoctrination has worked! Edited October 3, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 You're predicting a response, and your prediction has teeth. Kraychik has elsewhere informed me that the most obviously arch-conservative forces on Earth--theocratic jihadists--are in fact...yep...leftists. Thanks for sharing with us, again, that you don't know what conservatism actually means in a political context. Consider a conservative in Russia in 1992, just after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Assuming he or she is trying to conserve the ways of the past, what exactly are those previous ways? Communism, of course. So a conservative in that context is a leftist. Islamists ("theocratic Jihadists", as you labelled them) absolutely qualify as leftists, even if you do want to qualify them as conservatives, which is fair as long as we understand that the meaning of the term conservatism varies based on context. They're all about a massive state and dictating to the individual how he or she must live his or her life. There is no respect for individual freedom in such a society. So yes, they are leftists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 See...you do have a problem with the word enemy. The indoctrination has worked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Islamists ("theocratic Jihadists", as you labelled them) absolutely qualify as leftists, even if you do want to qualify them as conservatives, which is fair as long as we understand that the meaning of the term conservatism varies based on context. They're all about a massive state and dictating to the individual how he or she must live his or her life. There is no respect for individual freedom in such a society. So yes, they are leftists. No. There's no "perfect conservatism" in which every set of applicable doctrines are met. So of course there will be varying degrees of deviation from doctrinaire principles. (And it's a good thing, in my view, for those on every point or sector of the spectrum.) So no, obviously the extremist Islamists aren't going to behave the way most self-styled conservatives would wish them to. But yes, they're plainly right-wingers. And leave that much aside, and go further into the delineation: consider your argument: do you not suppose there are many ways that the Islamists don't adhere to typical leftie contructs and ideals? Statism aside (and plenty of leftists are less statist than mainstream liberals and conservatives, just by-the-by)...in most ways they are distinctly opposed, fundamentally opposed, to almost everything every leftwinger stands for. By your own measurements, there's no way they could be deemed "leftist." Edited October 3, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Actually they do! Katriuk in Quebec. Csaraet in Nova Scotia. Oberlander and Fast.... All of them kept low profiles and no criminal record. Geez, how many you want Einstien. Great oops moment huh? LOL Another brain fart. Of course that info is kept, nice try to deflect away, because surely...oh wait, I'm talking to you ,well most people would see or know to look , that in fact we do keep those figures. and some people dont sleep well at night cuz they be fraidy cats worrying about the mooslims. Oh....the sky is falling. We have a country with a set of rules that can be used by minorities to get thier way, and that is what happening in this country now. The add the fact that our social programs that we have is another factor why everyone is trying to get in here. I take it you think mooslims or others are to stupid to figure that out. This country has been set up to fail, unfortunilty by the time you figure that out it will be to late. Hell dalton even hung out sharia law just for votes. We have gender abortions going on in BC that BC had to change it's laws about telling asians what gender thier child is. You have muslim men marrying more then one women in many CANADIAN CITIES as we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 No. There's no "perfect conservatism" in which every set of applicable doctrines are met. So of course there will be varying degrees of deviation from doctrinaire principles. (And it's a good thing, in my view, for those on every point or sector of the spectrum.) So no, obviously the extremist Islamists aren't going to behave the way most self-styled conservatives would wish them to. But yes, they're plainly right-wingers. And leave that much aside, and go further into the delineation: consider your argument: do you not suppose there are many ways that the Islamists don't adhere to typical leftie contructs and ideals? Statism aside (and plenty of leftists are less statist than mainstream liberals and conservatives, just by-the-by)...in most ways they are distinctly opposed, fundamentally opposed, to almost everything every leftwinger stands for. By your own measurements, there's no way they could be deemed "leftist." You don't even grasp the meaning of basic political terms, I know. I'm not gonna go around in circles with you and play this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) You don't even grasp the meaning of basic political terms, I know. I'm not gonna go around in circles with you and play this game. I'm not playing a game, I'm allowing your argument (they're not conservative)...and showing how it undermines another part of your argument (they're leftists). Ok, leave aside my contention of their fundamental conservatism...and look only at your argument that they're leftists, coupled with your reasoning that they can't be deemed conservative: You say they're not conservative, because conservatives aren't statists, and they are. By the same token--exactly the same token--your token--the fact (inarguable) that they don't adhere to most leftwing principles means that they cannot be leftists. That's your argument, kraychik. You can't have it both ways. Edited October 3, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Islam...not individual Muslims. Tarek Fatah isn't the enemy. Tarek Fateh has defended the Koran, the very same book you consider to be the original sin of Islam. If the faith is as fundamentally rotten as you say, anyone who practices it is as bad as the worst extremist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Tarek Fateh has defended the Koran, the very same book you consider to be the original sin of Islam. If the faith is as fundamentally rotten as you say, anyone who practices it is as bad as the worst extremist. Can you point to my quote describing the Koran as the original sin of Islam? Didn't think so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 We have a country with a set of rules that can be used by minorities to get thier way, and that is what happening in this country now. "thier [sic] way" is a relativistic term. You could argue that freeing the slaves was them getting "their way". Let's temper our discussion a little. I hate using the term "fairness" as it depends on perspective but maybe we should be looking at preserving rights and opportunities a little more equally. The add the fact that our social programs that we have is another factor why everyone is trying to get in here. I don't buy it. Somalis arrived in my neighbourhood and opened stores. Homegrown Canadians don't do that. Maybe that's an anomaly - what do you think ? They seem to be coming here to work and make money from what I can see. This country has been set up to fail, unfortunilty by the time you figure that out it will be to late. No, I have faith in the system that took us from monarchy to being in charge of our own destiny. You don't seem to have faith in our system, which is strange because you appear to be saying it's in danger at the same time ? Hell dalton even hung out sharia law just for votes. You're misrepresenting what happened there. You have muslim men marrying more then one women in many CANADIAN CITIES as we speak. There's a wedding going on right now ? Pity, the weather is terrible today. I hate to step on a good rant and all but when you rave on like that, and spice it up with hyperbole, you won't win neutral people over, unless they're gullible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 We have a country with a set of rules that can be used by minorities to get thier way, Hint, those rules (whatever you mean, of course youre non-specific as always) are there for everyone. Ergo, non starter. and that is what happening in this country now. Of course , void of any link, context or info. Ergo non-starter. The add the fact that our social programs that we have is another factor why everyone is trying to get in here. Except they aren't , many other countries are attractive. Ergo non-starter. I take it you think mooslims or others are to stupid to figure that out. Actually, you are making a case for Canadians being too stupid to figure it out since, according to you, Muslims have it figured out already and Canucks haven't. Which is it? Again, a non-starter. This country has been set up to fail, unfortunilty by the time you figure that out it will be to late. Please point me to the Dept of Set-Up to Fail. Is it the West Block on Parliament Hill or the East Block? Fraidy cats like you need to go back to bed and cower. Pretty pathetic veiwpoint, and of course, not a link nor expression of what needs to be done to improve things. Just lame fraidy cat stuff. Meow! Hell dalton even hung out sharia law just for votes. We have gender abortions going on in BC that BC had to change it's laws about telling asians what gender thier child is. You have muslim men marrying more then one women in many CANADIAN CITIES as we speak. Hmm...kinda like (or exactly to be precise).. Jewish Courts? Canadians having gender abortions. Polygamy exists in Bountiful, and not a Muslim to be found there. Ergo, Non starters. Thats whack of non starters, perhaps you need this to help? Take you pick! http://www.google.ca/search?q=starter+fluid&hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enCA407&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9oNsUOiCCMf_ygG17YCIBg&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1152&bih=632 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Can you point to my quote describing the Koran as the original sin of Islam? Didn't think so... I'm basing this on our earlier chat on the significance of the Koranic verse you dropped into the thread. from that I extrapolated that you think those who believe the Koran (that is to say: practitioners of Islam) are inherently hostile to the west. That would ipso facto include moderate Muslims like Fatah. If that's not a correct read of your views, you can always articulate what they actually are. Though that may require typing more than one or two sentences... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm basing this on our earlier chat on the significance of the Koranic verse you dropped into the thread. from that I extrapolated that you think those who believe the Koran (that is to say: practitioners of Islam) are inherently hostile to the west. That would ipso facto include moderate Muslims like Fatah. If that's not a correct read of your views, you can always articulate what they actually are. Though that may require typing more than one or two sentences... It's not me claiming the Koran is the literal word of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 It's not me claiming the Koran is the literal word of God. Who said it was and what does that have to do with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Islam by its very nature, as stated in the Koran, is not the friend of non-believers. Individual Muslims may (or may not) buck this trend. But, the fact remains, since it was founded, Islam has been at war with the West with a few time-outs for this or that reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Islam by its very nature, as stated in the Koran, is not the friend of non-believers. Individual Muslims may (or may not) buck this trend. But, the fact remains, since it was founded, Islam has been at war with the West with a few time-outs for this or that reason. Islam has never been at war with the west. Muslims have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Islam has never been at war with the west. Muslims have. Mind you if I claimed the sky was blue, you'd say green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Mind you if I claimed the sky was blue, you'd say green. The sky is sometimes green. Sometimes blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) I'm not playing a game, I'm allowing your argument (they're not conservative)...and showing how it undermines another part of your argument (they're leftists). Right, because you think conservatism and leftism are mutually irreconcilable, and they're NOT. The values of conservatism are dependent on context, so a contemporary American conservatism holds values that are antithetical to those of conservatives in Russia in the 1990s. What defines a conservative is the context within which he or she exists, what values are trying to be preserved? The values of leftism, unlike conservatism, are NOT contingent on context. Therefore, you can be a conservative leftist if the values you're trying to conserve are communism or Islamism. I normally assume this is elementary. Edited October 3, 2012 by kraychik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 The sky is sometimes green. Sometimes blue. Sometimes green, eh? Best lay-off the catnip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Tarek Fateh has defended the Koran, the very same book you consider to be the original sin of Islam. If the faith is as fundamentally rotten as you say, anyone who practices it is as bad as the worst extremist. Nice strawman argument. DogOnPorch never stated that all Muslims are alike. Neither was it stated that Islam monolithic in practise. All you're doing is demonstrating your desperation to slander us as haters of Muslims. It's pathetic and it shows us how hollow your argumentation and ideology is. Edited October 3, 2012 by kraychik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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