US Ambassador to Libya killed in attacks

[JerrySeinfeld]

I keep hearing that and as days go by things just seem to reinforce what I already know.

What you "know" is that if a woman "provokes" rape by wearing certain clothing, then she deserves it.

This is precisely the same logic you are using: it's not the attacker's fault - it's the person being attacked.

Sick man, you are.

Edited September 13, 2012 by JerrySeinfeld

[GostHacked]

What you "know" is that if a woman "provokes" rape by wearing certain clothing, then she deserves it.

Do I condone the violence? No. Do I understand why it happened? Yes.

This is precisely the same logic you are using: it's not the attacker's fault - it's the person being attacked.

Paul Ryan thinks rape is just another form of conception.

Sick man, you are.

Oh good, since my other arm is busy with Shady, I'll have to untie the other to handle you.

Edited September 13, 2012 by GostHacked

[Shady]

What you "know" is that if a woman "provokes" rape by wearing certain clothing, then she deserves it.

This is precisely the same logic you are using: it's not the attacker's fault - it's the person being attacked.

Sick man, you are.

Yep, his logic (I use that term loosely) is pretty messed up.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Yep, his logic (I use that term loosely) is pretty messed up.

And in typical lib fashion, when called on his "logic", he instinctively spouts the word "Paul Ryan" as defence.

Or "Bush did it!!!"

[GostHacked]

And in typical lib fashion, when called on his "logic", he instinctively spouts the word "Paul Ryan" as defence.

Or "Bush did it!!!"

Sweet now I have two partisan hacks to play with.

[jbg]

Now because of the showing, two embassies were attacked, one in Cairo and the other in Benghazi and one US citizen was killed.

What a bigoted post. You're saying that the denizens of Cairo and Benghazi are utterly incapable of self-control when they hear about (and I doubt they watched) a video that might offend them.

[jbg]

People make insulting "art" directed at Christians and Jews all the time but this never happens.

Are you ignoring the frequency of Jewish mobs attacking any person perceived to be the nationality of the producer of an insulting video?

[Shady]

And in typical lib fashion, when called on his "logic", he instinctively spouts the word "Paul Ryan" as defence.

Or "Bush did it!!!"

Exactly! But never Obama!

The radicals and GH agree, blasphemy against Islam is not to be tolerated!!!

[Shady]

What a bigoted post. You're saying that the denizens of Cairo and Benghazi are utterly incapable of self-control when they hear about (and I doubt they watched) a video that might offend them.

Yep, don't try to figure out his logic (I use the term logic very loosely), it doesn't make any sense.

[jbg]

Do you go around provoking bears in the woods? Why not?

So Muslims must be treated as unthinking animals?

Apparently some people think so. I think that's supremely bigoted.

I'd treat them as if they're totally responsible for their actions, and turn certain mosques into parking lots.

[Shady]

Read a good piece in the Daily Beast regarding anti-Islam blasphemy laws and Egypt...

More serious is the exploitation by Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood president of the incident as support for anti-Islam blasphemy laws. It’s important to understand that Morsi is concerned with Egyptian, not American, laws. Morsi is taking a page from the 1979 Khomeini playbook, fabricating an international incident to mobilize religious passions as a weapon for his political grouping against more secular blocs in Egyptian society – the Egyptian military very much included.

TDB

And we have 'useful idiots' in this forum helping him out.

[jacee]

Bullshit, the provocation is what drove it in this direction in the first place.

The protesters in Cairo appeared to be a genuinely spontaneous unarmed mob angered by an anti-Islam video said to have been produced in the United States. By contrast, it appeared the attackers in Benghazi were armed with mortars and rocket-propelled grenades.

Intelligence reports are inconclusive at this point, officials said, but indications suggest the possibility that an organized group had either been waiting for an opportunity to exploit like the protests over the video or perhaps even generated the protests as a cover for their attack.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/09/american-killed-in-attack-on-libya-consulate.html

Yes the video provoked protests, but the murders

were preplanned.

Think Jones is a convenient excuse ... or is he preplanned and by whom?

Edited September 13, 2012 by jacee

[jbg]

Sure they are violent nutjobs. Radical Islam is just that. But the west has been stirring this pot for a couple decades now with no resolution. Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt Tunisia, Libya, Syria all undermined by western backed rebels who had Al-queda among them .. So now these same rebels are causing the stink.

Can't the "nutjobs" find something constructive to do.

[BubberMiley]

I'd treat them as if they're totally responsible for their actions, and turn certain mosques into parking lots.

You would if not for what?

[Signals.Cpl]

I agree, which is why I specified "Canadians," not the Canadians who refused to be silenced.

I agree that freedom of speech has consequences, but I disagree that one "has to be ready" for illegal, violent consequences if what you are saying means that means we have to accept it, and I don't think acceptance of such behavior will do anything but strengthen said behavior. We should be mad as hell, and we should be mad at the murderers. That's it. That's what all of our anger, all of the media attention, should be focused on. To put any blame on someone who did nothing more than exercise their rights is do divide the blame, to say it's not all the murderers' fault. That is sending a very bad message, and it's empowering them and it is shifting the blame, or at least some of the blame, when ALL of the blame falls squarely on their shoulders as they are the only ones who did something wrong.

So you find nothing wrong with the fool who made this video hoping for just this reaction in order to prove his point? There is more than enough blame to go around here and personally the once who murdered the American citizens are guilty but so is the fool who intentionally instigated the situation hoping for American casualties in order to promote himself. If your freedom of speech is not universal, and it is not universal you have to measure your words so when you know that the words that come out of your mouth, and your actions are viewed and they have consequences. At this point in time he has instigated several such incidents that have directly contributed to a number of deaths due to desire for personal gain. He wrote a book about Islam and then threatened to burn the Koran as I assume a publicity stunt, as his book gained popularity after the initial threat as well as getting a free car for not burning the Koran in 2010 thanks to a dealership in New Jersey. At the end of the day, this is not about freedom of speech as much as self promotion at the expense of American and NATO lives as well as innocent bystanders.

Religions are criticized all the time, and it's ok because they are not violent. But criticizing Islam is a no-no, because we apparently must expect a violent reaction. So everyone is fair game except Muslims. Everyone must learn to suck it up and live with criticism and sometimes hurt feelings except Muslims.

No, it has nothing to do with that it is simply that when you state something intentionally designed to get a deadly reaction in order to promote yourself and your "cause" then it becomes problematic.

He knows that?

He most definitely knows that such actions cause deaths around the world because his actions in 2010 caused deaths simply because he wanted to promote his book. His actions earlier this year caused deaths not only of Americans but of NATO troops whose families I am sure are glad their loved once died to protect his freedom to kill people.

If this is true, if we know that certain people will kill innocent people simply because of the threat of violence, I say rather than give them their way, the world should strongly object. Call them for what they are.

He is not calling them out on anything because of principle, it is a ruse to get a reaction in order to prove his argument at the expense of 4 innocent American lives most recently and dozens of innocent lives from previous such events.

Don't coddle, don't share the blame, don't give them an inch. Go after them. They kill ours? Insist that their governments punish those responsible. If they refuse to do that, cut off diplomatic ties.

Great, I agree what about those on our side? He intentionally instigate this knowing that Americans would die for his pleasure...would you feel like this if you lost a loved one due to his instigation?

Do you truly believe that he is not putting himself out there? How can he "hide" in the U.S.?

I am certain that should his life be under any threat whatsoever the authorities would do everything in their power to protect him and his family, that is why he is hiding. I assume the authorities have protective detail on him as we speak so he is most likely in no danger what so ever unlike the poor bastards that have to die because of him.

And how is he "letting" others die for his opinion?

He did it in 2010, there were deaths. He knew there would be deaths so he did what he planned to do in 2010 but this time he actually went through with it earlier this year more deaths occurred. So if he did not know that other people would die for his actions then he is the dumbest person in America.

He has nothing to do with their deaths.

He instigate the incident, hoping that Americans will die in order to prove his point. If the muslims did not bite then his argument falls through. If muslims had not caused such rioting and deaths in 2010 we would have already forgotten about this fool and he would have stop trying to get people killed. He is continuing with this because people died in his previous 2 escapades and he received much more than his fair share of attention.

He is not responsible for their deaths.

He is responsible for every single death that occurs as a result of his actions in April and September of this year.

He is not advocating their deaths.

He is not advocating the deaths, at least not publicly but he knows that they will come and as such he is responsible for every death his actions cause.

He is simply speaking his mind, and to suggest that HE is somehow responsible is, again, minimizing the killings, the brutal violence, of the actual guilty parties.

No, he is making a joke of 9/11, instead of remembering the people of those attacks 11 years ago, he is creating new casualties through his actions, next time he decides to remind the public that he exists, he should probably warn the US authorities in order to have them stock up on body bags.

To assign any blame to someone who simply exercised their right to freedom of speech is in effect saying, 'we will do as you say, your threats of violence will get you what you want.' IOW, violence works.

So you assign no blame on him, even though he knew that his actions will most certainly cause serious injury and death to a number of Americans and possibly other NATO members.

When I've traveled, and when my daughters travel, we do it openly as Americans. I/we realize that my/our citizenship might single me/us out and we still support the freedom of speech.

Yeah, as you said freedom is not free ask the families of the deceased as their loved once paid for this idiots words so that he can keep his face in the publics eye.

The only way to ever make the world safe from these violent extremists is to not back down and to put the blame for their violent actions squarely on their shoulders. Caving in to the violent, as we feel free to ridicule anyone who isn't violent, is not something I can support.

No one is caving in, but knowing that his actions will cause innocent people to suffer and/or die should wake him. His freedom of speech just cost 4 people their lives.Just because a fire will burn does not mean you should throw gas in it because you can.

Again. No one is "letting" them do that. The blame, the guilt, falls on the shoulders of the murderers. This message that someone is to blame for setting them off is so wrong, and so empowering for them. Furthermore, the idea that we cannot offend the violent while it's totally ok to offend the nonviolent is making some nonviolent people mad as hell. And rightfully so.

You seem to value the right of one fool to make money and push his message more than the lives of the dozens of people who died because of his idiocy.

That is caving in to violence; that is letting violence rule our lives. It is empowering the violent, and sending the message to our youth that violence is an effective means of getting what we want.

How about we send our youth the message that its not ok to gamble with someone else's life? I don't want to die in some foreign land because some fool wants to get media attention for his church and get interest for his book.

Why do you suppose people fought and died for our freedoms?

why do you want to send more 18 year olds to a meaningless death in Afghanistan in order to uphold some fools right to cause the death.

Because they are worth having - and if we just extend the freedom of speech, our right to piss people off with our opinions, to the non-violent, what message do you think that sends?

His speech is aimed 100% at causing death so that his message reinforced, so that his book gets more sales and any subsequent book(s) get more sales and he makes sure to extend his 15 minutes of fame.

Again, the idea that he is "letting" this happen is so far off.

Oh he is not letting it happen, he is fairly active in this event...actualy I would say he has a central role just as he intended.

I don't know if what you've read is true or not, but if it is, I would say he can hardly hide forever.

I would hope not.

Your issue may not be to prevent them from speaking their minds, but it does prevent them from speaking their minds.

If you know the consequences of your action might be death because your freedom of speech does not extend much beyond your borders and those of other western nations and you don't want to die then don't speak. Speaking when you know that your words/actions will cause a number of people to lose their lives while you are safe far away then maybe you should reconsider your words/actions. If your words cause my death you killed me just as if you were the one pulling the trigger.

Furthermore, who decided to show this film in the ME?

The idiot who put it on youtube.

At any rate, I don't doubt for a second that all of the attention going towards blaming someone else for the actions of murderers suits their agenda well.

There is more than enough blame to go around.

In the end, perhaps the people responsible for the film will be killed - or are living in fear as the Danish cartoonist is - and I fear you are saying that they brought that on themselves, rather than defending their right to free speech and having complete outrage for violent killers - and only killers, rather than people who were only expressing free speech - no different from what is directed at other non-violent religions/groups.

First time is free speech, second time you do it knowing that someone else will die for your free speech is not free speech it is murder. I value other people's lives more than that, I am not going to send you to your death in order to express an "opinion" just so I can make a few more bucks and squeeze some more fame out of those 15 min.

[Signals.Cpl]

Exactly. It's interesting though, how the media never had much of a problem with John Kerry criticizing Bush in '04 on a day when 87 soldiers were killed in Iraq. Funny how the same standard doesn't seem to apply to Democrats.

John Kerry saw 7 dead Americans and didn't even wait till the bodies were cold before exploiting the death for his own personal gain. Eh punked?

But did he in anyway shape or form cause the deaths of those soldiers?

[jacee]

First time is free speech, second time you do it knowing that someone else will die for your free speech is not free speech it is murder. I value other people's lives more than that, I am not going to send you to your death in order to express an "opinion" just so I can make a few more bucks and squeeze some more fame out of those 15 min.

Just suppose... We live under an oppressive dictatorship, we speak out against the violence, some of us are killed in retaliation. We speak out again. More are killed.

Are we supposed to be quiet because we're causing death?

Freedom of speech has to be for everyone.

Violent response is the culprit.

Edited September 13, 2012 by jacee

[Wilber]

Just suppose... We live under an oppressive dictatorship, we speak out against the violence, some of us are killed in retaliation. We speak out again. More are killed.

Are we supposed to be quiet because we're causing death?

Freedom of speech has to be for everyone.

Violent response is the culprit.

But we don't do we. It is our right to shoot of our mouths knowing others may die as a consequence of our words, safe in the knowledge that nothing can happen to us. Exercising your freedoms at someone else's expense is the act of a coward.

[Shady]

But we don't do we. It is our right to shoot of our mouths knowing others may die as a consequence of our words, safe in the knowledge that nothing can happen to us. Exercising your freedoms at someone else's expense is the act of a coward.

Freedoms are exercised at nobody's expense. That's why they're freedoms.

[Wilber]

Freedoms are exercised at nobody's expense. That's why they're freedoms.

Bullshit, freedoms come with responsibilities

[Shady]

Bullshit, freedoms come with responsibilities

If you don't like our societies rights and freedoms, you're FREE to move somewhere else.

[Wilber]

If you don't like our societies rights and freedoms, you're FREE to move somewhere else.

Your freedoms don't include the right to stomp all over the lives of other. Freedom without responsibility is anarchy.

[Bonam]

Your freedoms don't include the right to stomp all over the lives of other.

Making a video stomps over no one's lives.

[Wilber]

Making a video stomps over no one's lives.

If you know and indeed are counting on innocents dieing as a result it sure does.

[Bonam]

If you know and indeed are counting on innocents dieing as a result it sure does.

How is one to know that one's fellow humans, instead of rationally critiquing the video on the points of it that they disagree with, will rampage through an embassy like unleashed beasts? Besides, investigations now seem to be showing that the protest outside the embassy was merely used as a distraction by an armed terrorist group that had planned the attack in advance, to coincide with the anniversary of 9/11.