Schools vs. "Values"

[Black Dog]

Stock letter asks school to warn when sensitive subjects arise

A number of conservative Christian and Muslim parents — unusual political bedfellows — suddenly are asking schools across the GTA to notify them when their child’s class will discuss topics ranging from homosexuality and birth control to wizardry, evolution and “environmental worship,” so they can withhold their child from classes that contradict their religious beliefs.

...

The letter was penned by PEACE (Public Education Advocates for Christian Equity) Hamilton, a Christian parent group led by Phil Lees, also head of Ontario’s Family Coalition Party. PEACE Hamilton is helping to raise an estimated $65,000 for Tourloukis’ lawsuit, said Lees, and has posted a blank copy of the Traditional Values Letter for parents to download from its website. Parents simply insert the name of their faith, into the same letter.

Seems simple to me: if you want your children educated in a way that's consistent with your personal religious values, send 'em to private school where they can be brainwashed however you want. Or-and here's a crazy idea-you could actually have a discussion with your kids about what they are learning and what issues it might create with your backwards beliefs.

[The_Squid]

A great way to dumb-down education and make our students more stupid is to allow social-conservatives power to influence the education curriculum.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1254595--big-chill-hits-alberta-classrooms

For over a year now, parents in Alberta have had the right to compel a teacher to defend herself before a human rights tribunal for discussing topics such as gay marriage or aboriginal spirituality in the classroom.

[Black Dog]

A great way to dumb-down education and make our students more stupid is to allow social-conservatives power to influence the education curriculum.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1254595--big-chill-hits-alberta-classrooms

Strange, I was under the impression conservatives hated HR tribunals and all they stood for...

[Michael Hardner]

Or-and here's a crazy idea-you could actually have a discussion with your kids about what they are learning and what issues it might create with your backwards beliefs.

That sounds to me like what is happening here.

Any religious parent has to explain to their child that their views are at odds with the general viewpoint on things...

[guyser]

are asking schools across the GTA to notify them when their child’s class will discuss topics ranging from homosexuality and birth control to wizardry, evolution and “environmental worship,” so they can withhold their child from classes that contradict their religious beliefs.

Really simple and could be quite funny to boot, and will achieve exactly what they asked for.

1St day of school each kid takes hoime the following.

Dear Parent(s)

At some point between today and next June 30th, the following may (and likely will be ) discussed.

Gay marriage

Abortion

Homosexuality

wizadry

religion (gasp!)

condoms and other wonderful things.

We agreed and now have notified you.

Have a nice day.

Yours truly,

Principal Skinner

Springhfield School Board.

[Black Dog]

That sounds to me like what is happening here.

Any religious parent has to explain to their child that their views are at odds with the general viewpoint on things...

It sounds to me like they are trying to keep their kids from being exposed to alternate viewpoints altogether. That's not a dialogue.

[cybercoma]

You want your child's education subsidized by public money, then they get a public education. You want to teach them in accordance of your private beliefs, send them to a private school and pay for their education yourself.

[Boges]

You want your child's education subsidized by public money, then they get a public education. You want to teach them in accordance of your private beliefs, send them to a private school and pay for their education yourself.

I heard the gentleman in question on the radio. I think his position is that he wants to actually be told what his child is being told above and beyond the set curriculum. Or when the teacher discusses issues that could be up for a moral debate.

For example a teacher could present the issue of abortion and where life begins as stated fact, where as we all know there's a lively debate about that. Or even that homosexuality is choice or a genetic predisposition. A teacher has a great deal of power in influencing the ideas of a child.

All this is anecdotal as there is no one set method of teaching, but to deny there are teachers with political agendas is to be naive. I've heard on the radio people say that school send notes home with children saying wrapping a lunch with a sandwich bag isn't encouraged. Stuff like that goes beyond what one would expect from a teacher. Who's to say that a teacher wouldn't use their influence to try and tilt a students opinion away from the faith his/her parents are trying to foster.

My memories of high school were that issues of faith and morality weren't treated as if there were sets of settled opinions on a varied amount of hot button issues. That could have changed in the decade plus since I've been in public school.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I heard the gentleman in question on the radio. I think his position is that he wants to actually be told what his child is being told above and beyond the set curriculum. Or when the teacher discusses issues that could be up for a moral debate.

For example a teacher could present the issue of abortion and where life begins as stated fact, where as we all know there's a lively debate about that. Or even that homosexuality is choice or a genetic predisposition. A teacher has a great deal of power in influencing the ideas of a child.

All this is anecdotal as there is no one set method of teaching, but to deny there are teachers with political agendas is to be naive. I've heard on the radio people say that school send notes home with children saying wrapping a lunch with a sandwich bag isn't encouraged. Stuff like that goes beyond what one would expect from a teacher. Who's to say that a teacher wouldn't use their influence to try and tilt a students opinion away from the faith his/her parents are trying to foster.

My memories of high school were that issues of faith and morality weren't treated as if there were sets of settled opinions on a varied amount of hot button issues. That could have changed in the decade plus since I've been in public school.

The gentleman in quiestion is being disingenuous. I doubt many schools are able to anticipate when a particular teacher's personal political beliefs may manifest in the classroom. But I'd like to focus on this for a second:

Who's to say that a teacher wouldn't use their influence to try and tilt a students opinion away from the faith his/her parents are trying to foster.

Heaven forbid a student encounter a dissenting viewpoint and be forced to think critically about their beliefs, those of their parents and those being put forward by a teacher.

Honestly, if this is the view of some of these people, they should probably just homeschool their kids. And not let them watch TV or read books. Or have friends. Satan is everywhere!

[Boges]

Heaven forbid a student encounter a dissenting viewpoint and be forced to think critically about their beliefs, those of their parents and those being put forward by a teacher.

Honestly, if this is the view of some of these people, they should probably just homeschool their kids. And not let them watch TV or read books. Or have friends. Satan is everywhere!

I think in this instance we're talking about children under the age of 10. I don't think it's an elementary public school teacher's place to be discussing any moral or ethical issues relating to religion.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that public school should be absent of religious discussion but then endorse a teacher taking a position on religious issues in the class and defend it by saying the teacher is teaching critical thought.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I think in this instance we're talking about children under the age of 10. I don't think it's an elementary public school teacher's place to be discussing any moral or ethical issues relating to religion.

Any particular reason why not?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that public school should be absent of religious discussion but then endorse a teacher taking a position on religious issues in the class and defend it by saying the teacher is teaching critical thought.

Except I've never said public school should be absent of religious discussion. Public school should be absent of religious instruction, but that's a different thing altogether.

[Boges]

Any particular reason why not?

What classes would you teach it? Catholic Schools have Religion of the World classes but many on this site with the Catholic School Board would just go away.

Otherwise Elementary curriculum is pretty straight forward. 3 Rs and Gym. There is some debate about teaching children sex ed. Many parents were upset about that and forced the Premier to backtrack on it. I don't think simple sexual education would hurt IMHO but it's definitely a hotly debated issue.

Except I've never said public school should be absent of religious discussion. Public school should be absent of religious instruction, but that's a different thing altogether.

Again, in what class? My parents never taught me much about religion and was never taught it at school. I ended learning a lot about it on my own when I was 15.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

What classes would you teach it? Catholic Schools have Religion of the World classes but many on this site with the Catholic School Board would just go away.

Otherwise Elementary curriculum is pretty straight forward. 3 Rs and Gym. There is some debate about teaching children sex ed. Many parents were upset about that and forced the Premier to backtrack on it. I don't think simple sexual education would hurt IMHO but it's definitely a hotly debated issue.

Well if it doesn't come up as part of the curriculum, then it shouldn't be an issue. But the sex-ed example illustrates the same problem.

Again, in what class? My parents never taught me much about religion and was never taught it at school. I ended learning a lot about it on my own when I was 15.

Well, I went to Catholic school, but I would think social studies or something would have a component of that.

I mean, the subject must come up somewhere, why else are we having this debate?

Edited September 11, 2012 by Black Dog

[Boges]

I mean, the subject must come up somewhere, why else are we having this debate?

I'm not sure, I've never seen the curriculum nor do I have a school-age child.

I agree that it would be very difficult for a school administrator to predict when a teacher would inject politically sensitive discussions into their curriculum.

That doesn't mean it's wrong if they do it.

For example if a teacher decides to say that people who commute to work are bad people that want to kill the planet, I'd say that's a bit offside.

I don't have any evidence that happens but it would be an example of something a parent might oppose.

[guyser]

I agree that it would be very difficult for a school administrator to predict when a teacher would inject politically sensitive discussions into their curriculum.

That doesn't mean it's wrong if they do it.

For example if a teacher decides to say that people who commute to work are bad people that want to kill the planet, I'd say that's a bit offside.

I don't have any evidence that happens but it would be an example of something a parent might oppose.

I bet no one argues with that.

But the case that it shouldnt be taught or discussed is really a misnomer

Parents should worry not so much what is taught or discussed, but how .

A teacher can easily give multiple viewpoints regarding a wide range of touchy subjects, and I hope they do. But how they give those or that viewpoint is more the concern. A teacher can talk about sexuality or related issues, religion, or anything else these parents are worried about, but in manner thatprovokes the child to learn more or to ask questions.

There is nothing wrong with kids knowing about multitude of things, parents can then discuss more with thier kids at the dinner table and express thier viewpoint and or reinforce their particulars families cersion of events .

But excusing them is stupid. Kids learn so much on the school grounds that is wacky, as we all did, ignorant viewpoints espoused by parents and repeated by Jr to his buddies.

[guyser]

I'm not sure, I've never seen the curriculum nor do I have a school-age child.

I agree that it would be very difficult for a school administrator to predict when a teacher would inject politically sensitive discussions into their curriculum.

That doesn't mean it's wrong if they do it.

For example if a teacher decides to say that people who commute to work are bad people that want to kill the planet, I'd say that's a bit offside.

I don't have any evidence that happens but it would be an example of something a parent might oppose.

Dl

[socialist]

i oppose parents being allowed to opt their kids out of certain classes because of their kooky beliefs. public education teaches equality.

[jacee]

i oppose parents being allowed to opt their kids out of certain classes because of their kooky beliefs. public education teaches equality.

And therein lies the problem:

In the dictum of some religions, members are morally superior to others with a special hell reserved for homosexuals, those who have abortions, sex without marriage, drink alcohol, etc etc.

The real divide began in the 1970's when research clearly showed that thinking critically was a crucial necessity to education, supplanting the memorize-and-regurgitate model of learning.

Some religions forbid critical thinking: Their values and thoughts are handed to them and not to be questioned.

It isn't the teaching of religion(s) that is the issue here though, as some other posters are suggesting (without reading the link). It also isn't about teachers foisting their own beliefs on children.

It is about the curriculum itself that teaches respect for diversity - ie, Canadian values. It is mainly about sexuality, homosexuality, Gay-straight alliances etc.

And you are right about equality: The child with two fathers or two mothers, or an unmarried parent has an equal right to be valued as children of heterosexual married parents. Teaching children to discriminate against 'identifiable groups' is definitely NOT in the school curriculum ... and is a violation of constitutional rights in Canada.

By the same constitution, however, children also have a right not to be discriminated against due to their religion.

Therein lies the dilemma facing the schools.

It may be feasible to exclude children from pre planned lessons, but much occurs in unplanned discussions too. It depends how reasonable parents are about it and how school boards handle it.

This parent seems to be indicating that other children are excluded/exempted from certain lessons, while his request was denied. It seems there must be more explanation to come.

...

Eta ... Heather Mallick's take on the issue ...

A weird cabal of extreme religionists and troubled people is attempting to subvert our public school system.

They can form their own self-funded pristine schools if they wish or try home-schooling. But they cannot destroy education for the rest of us.

Now, listen up, class. There was this guy named Charles Darwin . . .

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1255253--conservative-religionists-blast-ontario-schools-with-opt-out-letters-for-students

Edited September 12, 2012 by jacee

[socialist]

And therein lies the problem:

In the dictum of some religions, members are morally superior to others with a special hell reserved for homosexuals, those who have abortions, sex without marriage, drink alcohol, etc etc.

The real divide began in the 1970's when research clearly showed that thinking critically was a crucial necessity to education, supplanting the memorize-and-regurgitate model of learning.

Some religions forbid critical thinking: Their values and thoughts are handed to them and not to be questioned.

It isn't the teaching of religion(s) that is the issue here though, as some other posters are suggesting (without reading the link). It also isn't about teachers foisting their own beliefs on children.

It is about the curriculum itself that teaches respect for diversity - ie, Canadian values. It is mainly about sexuality, homosexuality, Gay-straight alliances etc.

And you are right about equality: The child with two fathers or two mothers, or an unmarried parent has an equal right to be valued as children of heterosexual married parents. Teaching children to discriminate against 'identifiable groups' is definitely NOT in the school curriculum ... and is a violation of constitutional rights in Canada.

By the same constitution, however, children also have a right not to be discriminated against due to their religion.

Therein lies the dilemma facing the schools.

It may be feasible to exclude children from pre planned lessons, but much occurs in unplanned discussions too. It depends how reasonable parents are about it and how school boards handle it.

This parent seems to be indicating that other children are excluded/exempted from certain lessons, while his request was denied. It seems there must be more explanation to come.

...

Eta ... Heather Mallick's take on the issue ...

A weird cabal of extreme religionists and troubled people is attempting to subvert our public school system.

They can form their own self-funded pristine schools if they wish or try home-schooling. But they cannot destroy education for the rest of us.

Now, listen up, class. There was this guy named Charles Darwin . . .

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1255253--conservative-religionists-blast-ontario-schools-with-opt-out-letters-for-students

exactly. i got attacked for making great pints about this in the homeschooling thread. we need to get kids into daycares as soon as possible so that intolerant, bigoted parents cant warp the minds of precious children. anyone who studies evolution as much as me knows it is absolutely flawless and explains how we came into being. i cant believe people try to dispute evolution. i have learned that it is a flawless fact. stupid ignorant people have no chance unless tey get in early to a public school. thats what has driven me to become a public school teacher.

[Melanie_]

exactly. i got attacked for making great pints about this in the homeschooling thread. we need to get kids into daycares as soon as possible so that intolerant, bigoted parents cant warp the minds of precious children. anyone who studies evolution as much as me knows it is absolutely flawless and explains how we came into being. i cant believe people try to dispute evolution. i have learned that it is a flawless fact. stupid ignorant people have no chance unless tey get in early to a public school. thats what has driven me to become a public school teacher.

For gods sake. You are just trolling, right? You can't actually believe this (not the evolution part, the part about parents). Maybe its time for you to evolve into a rational human being.

(And please, if you are intending to be a teacher, learn some grammar and spelling.)

Edited September 12, 2012 by Melanie_

[Topaz]

One could say to these parents, then come to the classes and listen and if you have a problem, lets talk about it or depending on the age of the child, they can get info. from their friends and the internet. How many parents talk about sexual topics with their kids and how many kids want their parent to do it?

[eyeball]

How many parents talk about sexual topics with their kids and how many kids want their parent to do it?

Do it? You mean like do sex?

Ewwwwww, is that ever gross!

[The_Squid]

LOL

[jacee]

exactly. i got attacked for making great pints about this in the homeschooling thread. we need to get kids into daycares as soon as possible so that intolerant, bigoted parents cant warp the minds of precious children. anyone who studies evolution as much as me knows it is absolutely flawless and explains how we came into being. i cant believe people try to dispute evolution. i have learned that it is a flawless fact. stupid ignorant people have no chance unless tey get in early to a public school. thats what has driven me to become a public school teacher.

I don't agree with the 'daycare ' idea.

Parents are free to raise their kids how they choose - it's a free country, remember?

Ultimately kids will make their own choices and as society's values evolve, so will they.

I don't think there's much to worry about, as far as the kids are concerned. They're more likely to adopt the views of their peers than their parents.

Parents and churches work hard to develop in the children a biblical Christian world view, however it is widely known that Barna Research studies demonstrate there is very little difference between the attitudes and values of Christian teens compared to secular teens.

http://www.peacehamilton.com/problem.php

The kids are alright ... and that's what seems to have their parents upset. Nothing new there!

[cybercoma]

I don't think anyone generally agrees with socialist's ideas.