Guest Manny Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) WTF? He and the others of his time had a perspective that people have been praying to experience for centuries right up to modern times. They received unfiltered morality from it's very source. And yet we have much more advanced knowledge of morality now, in modern times, despite the apparent silence from heaven. How is that? Could it be that it evolved within our brains over time? Wasn't Abraham portrayed near the very beginning of this story, in ancient times... thousands of years ago. People lived in a state of virtual lawlessness. Uncivilized. In this environment Abraham was born. We can judge him quite easily through modern eyes. We have the benefit of doing that. We can condemn him for his actions, even call him immoral. How? Because we have evolved since then. Culturally, socially. We can point to certain milestones in that development. The new testament was written to give people a way out of the dilemma of their sin. Through mercy and forgiveness. Even and perhaps most of all, forgiveness of the self: follow me, and sin no more. These things come about because of changes in our values. It's evidence of a kind of evolution. Edited August 31, 2012 by Manny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Oh really? Well prove that to me then...using a source other than the Bible. You see, I don't believe in the Bible, so you quoting it over and over does nothing to convince me. Well, you're asking a Christian about her God. Of course she'll answer you with her faith. There's no need for proof to a Christian. And I'm not trying to convince you. I already gave The Bible topic - which btw isn't finished yet - (for non-believers who want science-backed empirical evidences), gave my testimony, and touched on GENERAL REVELATION - His Creation - which incidentally a lot of non-believers use for calm, theraphy, inspiration, refuge, etc., - as close to being "spiritual" as they can get (and perhaps without even realizing it). When one starts responding in those depth of emotions to the AWESOME GRANDEUR of His Creation - perhaps He may be knocking in your heart offering you His promised REST - then, the next move is up to you. You can either keep ignoring the call until your heart gets really hardened (like Pharoah's from Exodus)....or, you can open up your heart to Him. Man, sometimes I think He really whacks you hard to get your attention - places you in corner with no one to turn to. A lot of lost sheep found Him that way, listening to their testimonies. The implication of that ought to feel very good and comforting....in retrospect. But I digress. Like I said, it's all up to you. This is a "take it or leave it" offer. Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) And yet there are so many circumstances where we are utterly powerless in the face of 'God's creation'. Well I mean the animals and other living things. We are in charge of those. You probably want to equate yourself as equal to a bug, or a frog, or a guppy, or a skunk....a Christian however doesn't. He is superior to those. Yes, we are, in so many circumstances when we are sitting ducks and utterly powerless in the face of God's Creation. And that's not only through nature that we are rendered powerless. You may think you've got your whole life mapped out with all your plans - then, suddenly you get a big jolt! To remind us exactly just that! HE IS GOD. You can only go as far as He lets you. At the end of the day, He is still the One in control. Same dude. Prove it. On second thought....never mind. Read below. Because most Christians understand the Bible so well. The reality is that the Bible and the Quran are both hate filled books that are very poorly written. Islam, is an offshoot of Christianity that started after the Bible was written. Islamic belief is based on Christian belief (as Christian belief is based on Jewish belief). Thee are differences in the belief to be sure, but it's simply different interpretations of the same sky fairy. Look, you don't even understand the Bible - otherwise you wouldn't be asking so many basic questions - let alone have the knowledge to do a comparison with the Quran! A lot of us Christians are in our early stages of Christianhood - we mature as we understand more. That is why we are adviced to keep reading the Bible (and asking the Holy Spirit for understanding)...because everytime we read, - through the guidance of the Holy Spirit - we discover new light to the passages. The Bible is the "go-to resource" for any troubling questions we may be facing in life. IT "TALKS!" Of course that goes over your head, being a non-believer. Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Misconception: GOD and Allah are the same. Answer: They're not. Entities are defined by their attributes. The attributes described by Muslims of Allah are not the same as the attributes of Christians by God. Therefore, they're not the same. You can argue that neither one is God, but you can't argue they both are. In other words, you can argue they can both be false, but you can't argue they can both be true. Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Then He shouldn't have created homosexuals, eh? He didn't create homosexuals anymore than He created pedophiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) So I can believe in Odin....It's just that burning a cow on an altar to him wouldn't make a smell that was pleasing to the Lord. Well, you said the magic word. Whether you burn the cow or dance your jig or do nothing...doesn't make any difference. It's your belief in Odin as a god that nails you. Well technically, she's not worshiping other gods, which is what the commandment was all about. The commandment itself acknowledges that there are other gods from which to choose. Let me expand on that. BD's explanation doesn't sound quite accurate even though there's some truth in it. "Worshipping" (graven images, or deities) means you believe in them as gods. Yes, there are other things you can turn into gods - trees, sun, graven images of people, minotaurs or other monster-like characters! In fact, the sky's the limit. You can also turn the sky into your god. Even today....you can make up your own god. It can be science, or the image of Dawkins, or the missing link (depending on how your fantastic minds can envision him), it can even be the environment (perhaps an offshoot of nature-worshipping) - anything goes! Some had even made SELF into a god. And some practice sacrificial offerings to their god, SELF. See? gods galore! God had said He is a jealous God. The root idea in the Old Testament word jealous is to become intensely red. It seems to refer to the changing color of the face or the rising heat of the emotions which are associated with intense zeal or fervor over something dear to us. In fact, both the Old and New Testament words for jealousy are also translated “zeal.” Being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible. God is zealous—eager about protecting what is precious to Him. One thing He views as especially important to Him in the Old Testament is the nation Israel. She belongs to Him as His special possession, His unique treasure For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession (Psalm 135:4). In fact, He views her as His wife. Through the Prophet Hosea He said to the nation, “And I will betroth you to Me forever” (Hosea 2:19). No man with any moral fiber wants to share his wife with another man, and neither does God. He expects exclusive devotion from her. When she goes after other lovers, that is, when she worships other gods and thus commits spiritual adultery, He is said to be jealous. When the term jealousy is applied to God in Scripture it is usually because His people are worshiping idols. In the second of His ten commandments He warned them not to do that, but they failed to listen to Him. . http://bible.org/seriespage/jealous-god However, the Jews from the Old Testament kept backsliding to worshipping idols. God's powerful wrath of punishments and destructions - the ones that non-believers love to point out - are mostly in fact a result of such disobedience. <scratching head> You and Cyber are really out of your league here, it seems. Good thing Black Dog can - on few occasions - manage to at least squeak in some things somewhat right, and correct you guys. How complicated could that be? Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Let me expand on that. "Worshipping" (graven images, or deities) means you believe in them as gods. God had said He is a "jealous" God. http://bible.org/seriespage/jealous-god However, the Jews from the Old Testament kept backsliding to worshipping idols. God's powerful wrath of punishments and destructions - the ones that non-believers love to point out - are mostly in fact a result of such disobedience. <scratching head> You and Cyber are really out of your league here, it seems. Good thing Black Dog can - on few occasions - manage to at least squeak in some things somewhat right, and correct you guys. How complicated could that be? I don't know how I'm out of my league when you're basically confirming everything I've been saying: 1. The Old Testament God emerged at a time when polytheism was rampant and was, in fact, derived from polytheistic religions of the day. In other words: he was/is one god among many. 2. the Old Testament god was a total jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) So here are some of the things I've encountered during debates or discussions with non-believers. Feel free to post your questions here... Misconception: God hates homosexuals. Correction: God does not hate homosexuals. He hates homosexual acts. God wants you to be you, just don't do the things you would do if you were you. Because he loves you. Edited August 31, 2012 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) I don't know how I'm out of my league when you're basically confirming everything I've been saying: I was responding to SmallC. Read again. FOCUS! And there I was extolling your virtues! I take that back! It was just a fluke on your part, apparently! :lol: So yes, you just got yourself lumped along with SmallC, and Cyber. By your own big mouth! More likely, by your own tail! Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Misconception: GOD and Allah are the same. Answer: They're not. Entities are defined by their attributes. The attributes described by Muslims of Allah are not the same as the attributes of Christians by God. Therefore, they're not the same. You can argue that neither one is God, but you can't argue they both are. In other words, you can argue they can both be false, but you can't argue they can both be true. Ummm... actually they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Ummm... actually they are. Because you say so? Hey, believe what you want! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Because you say so? Hey, believe what you want! No, because Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions. Perhaps I should ask you how they aren't the same God? Perhaps I misunderstand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 No, because Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions. Perhaps I should ask you how they aren't the same God? Perhaps I misunderstand? Read about the attributes again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 No, because Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions. Perhaps I should ask you how they aren't the same God? Perhaps I misunderstand? No! They're not! Here's another thing to think about. To facilitate Islam's advance in the Judeo-Christian West, it is often deceptively referred to as an Abrahamic religion based on the claim that these religions have "shared values". But how can Islam have "shared values" with Judaism and Christianity, when its doctrines are so hateful toward those religions http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/50-stunich/399-islam-abrahamic-religion-or-muhammads-alter-ego.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I was responding to SmallC. Read again. FOCUS! And there I was extolling your virtues! I take that back! It was just a fluke on your part, apparently! :lol: So yes, you just got yourself lumped along with SmallC, and Cyber. By your own big mouth! More likely, by your own tail! I have no idea what you're on about here. I do know it has nothing to do with what I wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 No! They're not! Seems pretty clear to me.... The unifying characteristic of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is that all accept the tradition that God revealed himself to the patriarch Abraham. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Seems pretty clear to me.... The unifying characteristic of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is that all accept the tradition that God revealed himself to the patriarch Abraham. Well, yeah they've got ties to Abraham. I said that in a previous post....regarding Ishmael. Ishmael was the son of Abraham with his maid. Abraham and Sarah took matters into their own hands - when a son still hadn't been born to them years after God promised them a son - and Sarah urged Abraham to father a child through the maid. What Islam is really saying is that yes, Yahweh is Allah and that Yahweh made a mistake and changed His mind and decided to talk to Muhammad, 600 years after He wasted His time on Christianity! Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Well, yeah they've got ties to Abraham. I said that in a previous post....regarding Ishmael. What Islam is really saying is that yes, Yahweh is Allah and that Yahweh made a mistake and changed His mind and decided to talk to Muhammad, 600 years after He wasted His time on Christianity! Btw, our God does not make mistakes. He is perfect. He doesn't change His mind either. He is immutable. Clearly....we're not talking about Allah. Edited August 31, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Btw, our God does not make mistakes. He is perfect. Really? Is jealousy often a trait of perfection? Why would a perfect God need to be jealous? Why would he create imperfect beings? I'm not the one out of my league. Edited August 31, 2012 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Really? Is jealousy often a trait of perfection? Why would a perfect God need to be jealous? Why would he create imperfect beings? I'm not the one out of my league. Well that jealousy has been explained. Scroll back and read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well that jealousy has been explained. Scroll back and read. I'm sorry, but no, it hasn't. You see, unless you can actually source some actually evidence, you are the one far out of your league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well, yeah they've got ties to Abraham. I said that in a previous post....regarding Ishmael. Ishmael was the son of Abraham with his maid. Abraham and Sarah took matters into their own hands - when a son still hadn't been born to them years after God promised them a son - and Sarah urged Abraham to father a child through the maid. Traditional family values, folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) He didn't create homosexuals anymore than He created pedophiles. Hmm. Now, out of all the myriad words you might have chosen as a comparison to homosexuals...you chose "pedophiles." Why, may I ask? Edited August 31, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Btw, our God does not make mistakes. He is perfect. He doesn't change His mind either. He is immutable. If he doesn't make mistakes, then he would hardly condemn the acts of homosexuals, whom he created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 So here are some of the things I've encountered during debates or discussions with non-believers. Feel free to post your questions here... Misconception: God hates homosexuals. Correction: God does not hate homosexuals. He hates homosexual acts. Prove it! What proof do you have that "God hates homosexual acts"? Oh wait, some guy wrote in a book a few millenia ago that some guy claimed that God claimed that he didn't like homosexuality...how credible! The REALLY REALLY stupid thing is the credibility that people give to the Bible. It's just a book, there isn't anything "holy" about it! People wrote it, not God. God had NOTHING to do with the creation and editing of the Bible. You can say God did, but you have ZERO evidence to back that up...other than what i written in the Bible. The Bible is just a freaking book. Author: a lot of long-dead dudes, none of them God or "divine" or "prophets". Some of the stuff in there is good advice, some of it garbage. Take it on the whole as the authority of one's life and morality without even questioning it is freaking stupid. Anyone who does that quite frankly is an idiot in the literal sense of the word. Human progress has been pushed back centuries because of the way many people give far too much authority to that book and to their religious authorities (who are only fallible humans like the rest of us with no more authority on matters of "God" than anyone else). People who take a stance on ie: whether gays should marry or not just because of what it says in an old book written by humans who still thought the earth was flat are fucking morons!!! I'm sorry but it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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