Questions, Misconceptions, Objections,..etc,

[blueblood]

So far it has been. Once it has been moved to its rightful place in churches and homes rather than in government, then we will see if its influence can be tempered.

But as long as God is telling people like GW Bush to make war, or the Taliban to blow people up, the world is going to have problems with religious people/groups going on killing sprees.

That would be gw bush and the Taliban thinking that god is telling them something which was on par for the brain fart that Stalin and Mao received.

[The_Squid]

Isn't that what democracy is, a group with ideas being represented?

I don't believe that democracies exist to impose religious dogma on the country, no.

That's your opinion of stock well day, however his record in cabinet suggests otherwise.

That's my opinion of anyone that believes in a 6000 year old earth. Idiots, every one of them.

So was the lack of religion in the USSR and tpchina during the great leap forward. " religion is poison!"

There was no lack of religion. There was violent state oppression for a thousand different reasons.

Curse that religious pope john Paul II. Helped bring down communism, bring freedom, and improve the lives of those in eastern Europe. That bastard!

Curse that bastard for helping AIDS spread like wildfire in Africa. I am guessing that anyone with that kind of record won't be in heaven, despite their great works against the commies...

[cybercoma]

So was the lack of religion in the USSR and tpchina during the great leap forward. " religion is poison!"

Curse that religious pope john Paul II. Helped bring down communism, bring freedom, and improve the lives of those in eastern Europe. That bastard!

What happened in USSR happened despite religion, not because of it. You'll be better off for learning the difference.

[The_Squid]

That would be gw bush and the Taliban thinking that god is telling them something which was on par for the brain fart that Stalin and Mao received.

Where do you see any atheist pining for the days of Stalin????

Atheists are not communists. They are not in favour of state imposed atheism. They are not in favour of killing poets, artists, authors and protestors.

What is your obsession with Stalin and communist China when no one else has ever argued in favour of that form of government?

[blueblood]

What happened in USSR happened despite religion, not because of it. You'll be better off for learning the difference.

You don't think that the pope didn't have a hand in influence? Last I checked he has a few followers.

You didn't think he helped illustrate the lack of freedom in those countries which was a motivating factor for their decline. By playing the religion card, he highlighted one of the lack of freedoms in a state that banned religion.

[blueblood]

Where do you see any atheist pining for the days of Stalin????

Atheists are not communists. They are not in favour of state imposed atheism. They are not in favour of killing poets, artists, authors and protestors.

What is your obsession with Stalin and communist China when no one else has ever argued in favour of that form of government?

Atheists like to say that religious people are incompatible with people

Peacefully existing with one another.

I like to point out that it was atheists who did the larges killings in history and put the tightest constraints on freedoms. They have their hands dirty too.

[The_Squid]

Atheists like to say that religious people are incompatible with people

Peacefully existing with one another.

I like to point out that it was atheists who did the larges killings in history and put the tightest constraints on freedoms. They have their hands dirty too.

LOL The HUGE difference between the commies and the religious murderers (which people who try and debate this on your side conveniently ignore) is that they did not do it because of atheism!! Atheism wasn't the reason that they killed people. It was convenient for them to be atheist because they wanted their people to worship the government. They saw religious idols as competition to their crazy communist dogma. It wasn't atheist dogma.... it was oppression for thousands of reasons, all of which had nothing to do with atheism.

If they thought worshiping Zeus would help with their oppression of their people, you can be damn sure they would have worshiped Zeus!

[blueblood]

S

Edited September 5, 2012 by blueblood

[blueblood]

LOL The HUGE difference between the commies and the religious murderers (which people who try and debate this on your side conveniently ignore) is that they did not do it because of atheism!! Atheism wasn't the reason that they killed people. It was convenient for them to be atheist because they wanted their people to worship the government. They saw religious idols as competition to their crazy communist dogma. It wasn't atheist dogma.... it was oppression for thousands of reasons, all of which had nothing to do with atheism.

If they thought worshiping Zeus would help with their oppression of their people, you can be damn sure they would have worshiped Zeus!

They were still atheist, now your making excuses. They didn't want religion around and snuffed it out as best they could.

One could argue some atheists are doing something similar on a smaller scale by suggesting that religious people have their influence tempered and using legal means to do so. Religious people have every right to be represented as atheists however, they are going to have to learn some give and take.

One could also argue the religious murderers killed scores of people not because god told them too, but for more pragmatic reasons such as securing power and wiping out dissent like *gasp the atheists.

[The_Squid]

They were still atheist, now your making excuses. They didn't want religion around and snuffed it out as best they could.

They killed other atheists.... How do you square that circle? Obviously atheism did not get someone preferred treatment in their club! So I am not making excuses, I am correcting your revisionist form of history.

To say atheists are doing something "similar" is simply idiotic and not worthy of a response, other than to say that it is an idiotic statement.

[betsy]

I don't know about the others but I read it and it offered no support whatsoever from modern science. The real laugher was the claim that 'god stretched out the heavens' confirmed and was supported by Einstien theory of general relativity. That was hilarious.

Either you missed the point entirely or you were reading one of the attempted rebutt to that post instead!

Here let me post this again:

FACT: EXPANDING UNIVERSE: Science uses the word, "STRETCHING/STRETCHES/STRETCHED!"

The long explanation is below. However, if you just want a short answer, I'll say this: if the universe is infinitely big, then the answer is simply that it isn't expanding into anything; instead, what is happening is that every region of the universe, every distance between every pair of galaxies, is being "stretched", but the overall size of the universe was infinitely big to begin with and continues to remain infinitely big as time goes on, so the universe's size doesn't change, and therefore it doesn't expand into anything.

Let me begin by saying that "expanding" isn't really the best word to describe what is happening to the universe, although that is the word that is often used - a word choice which I think leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion regarding what is already a difficult topic! A more accurate word for what the universe is doing might be "stretching".

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

The theory which follows in this text stems from the idea that the notion of space curvature is better understood as "stretched space", and that it is the exact same property responsible for the expansion of the Universe.

http://www.science27.com/english/introduction1.html

Our modern ideas of space (and time) come from none other than Albert Einstein. The good Dr. Einstein's Theory of Relativity is a potent set of physics ideas that gives us a completely new view of the nature of space. It also turns out to be the principal piece of physics needed for cosmology. Einstein, in all his genius, recognized that Space was not just emptiness but had its own separate reality. Space and time are a kind of "fabric" of reality and like any fabric they can stretch, bend and even fold. Yes, this is a completely freaky idea but let us just accept for now and see where we can go with it in terms of cosmology.

One of the first things Einstein did after he finished his theory of relativity was start thinking about space, time and the Universe as a whole. He knew that all the beautiful equations he derived could describe the stretching of the entirety of space. Now that is certainly a wild idea. There are actually equations that can describe the stretching, the shape, of all space. After years of working on the problem, Einstein and other scientists found that this cosmological stretching of space and time would determine how the physics of the entire Universe plays out.

http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/uspeak/feb_02_uspeak.mhtml

When general relativity is applied to the Universe as a whole, it turns out that space should be either stretching or contracting. In 1929, the astronomer Edwin Hubble observed that distant galaxies are all moving away from the Earth. He concluded that the Universe is expanding. As space stretches, galaxies are pulled away from one another and the farther two galaxies are apart the faster they move away from each other. The standard analogy is that of a balloon with dots on it:

Since Hubble's initial findings, many observations have confirmed that the Universe is expanding. The fractional speed of stretching is known as the Hubble expansion rate.

http://www.jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/newcosmology.html

According to science, the universe is expanding, or "stretching out." There are at least 11 passages in the Bible written by five different authors that talked about God "stretching out the heavens," and all were made in the context of creation.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=90

---------------------------

So Peter, now explain how to you, it is "laughable."

Edited September 5, 2012 by betsy

[blueblood]

They killed other atheists.... How do you square that circle? Obviously atheism did not get someone preferred treatment in their club! So I am not making excuses, I am correcting your revisionist form of history.

To say atheists are doing something "similar" is simply idiotic and not worthy of a response, other than to say that it is an idiotic statement.

And they shut down churches and drove religion underground.

My point is that atheists have their hands just as dirty as religious people. Nut bars come in all shapes and sizes.

[betsy]

or as Martin Luther said: “Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. ”

and that is where Bestsy is coming from. Reason is the destroyer of faith and is in fact the devils tool

Depends on what kind of reason is being handed out, and for what reason it is being handed out.

If it is the "reasoning" of people like Dawkins....yeah, I'd say that's the destroyer of faith, the tool of the devil!

No Peter. I gave reason - as an example, that fact you found so laughable above. Now you've got to reason with me why and how you find it laughable.

Actually, I am the one who's trying to use reason here, since I've already said for the umpteenth times that when I am debating with non-believers, I cannot just simply come in with just my faith for a weapon....for the simple fact that you don't believe in faith.

So, use your reason. Reason away!

[Black Dog]

According to science, the universe is expanding, or "stretching out." There are at least 11 passages in the Bible written by five different authors that talked about God "stretching out the heavens," and all were made in the context of creation.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=90

---------------------------

So Peter, now explain how to you, it is "laughable."

You know the Bible originally didn't use the word "stretching" right?

[betsy]

I've read parts of it, basically the just of it is it's a philosophical text that shows how people should carry themselves and treat each other, which is all fine and good as those parts are logical, make sense, and I think any rational person regardless of their beliefs should think is a fair way of treating people. I.e. Not killing each other, treating others with respect, working hard, etc.

The problem arises in what I call the fluff of it; which worked in ancient t times to explain the world around them and to provide incentive to get people to follow what was being taught. People are fighting over what incentive is right, which I think misses the whole point of the book altogether.

The topic The Bible has an on-going list of facts - statements given in the Bible - that have been supported by modern science. The point I'm trying to make with that topic is that, how could these ancient men from thousands of years ago even came to spout what must be to them unfathomable statements - and lo and behold, they ended up being supported by science.

Like the argument I'm making about the stretching universe - 11 times, that very description was mentioned in various parts of the Bible, and in the right context too. Surely, only someone who has intimate knowledge of it - like the Creator or the Designer - could've known and described it as it is.

Edited September 5, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

You know the Bible originally didn't use the word "stretching" right?

Cite.

[betsy]

You and I know that the bible contradicts itself. I wouldnt consider the parables of Jesus and the 10 commandments a poor guide for moral character. Some of the other stuff however...

In what way does it contradict itself? Give an example.

[betsy]

Except when they don't.

Well, you can't blame the Book if some people don't follow the teachings written in it.

[Black Dog]

Cite.

The Bible was written in, like, Aramaic. So yeah, they wouldn't have used the word "stretching."

[GostHacked]

So was the lack of religion in the USSR and tpchina during the great leap forward. " religion is poison!"

Curse that religious pope john Paul II. Helped bring down communism, bring freedom, and improve the lives of those in eastern Europe. That bastard!

The Pope had SFA to do with the downfall of communism. Communism was rotten from the inside and was it's own eventual downfall. There was a military spending war between the USA and the USSR was the biggest factor in the demise of communism. The USA simply outspent the Soviets.

[GostHacked]

In what way does it contradict itself? Give an example.

I got one!

God says 'Thou shalt not kill' while God would wipe out a village because some are non-believers.

[Smallc]

I got one!

God says 'Thou shalt not kill' while God would wipe out a village because some are non-believers.

High five.

Of course, here, again, you're trying to equate yourself to God, as I was doing.....

[betsy]

No, but, I can say stoning them to death is

Which was not allowed. Stoning to death was a man-made law.

....or hating someone because of sexual orientation....or...etc, etc.

A misconception that anti-religion people love to use! Homosexuals are not hated by God.

To try to insist on perpetuating that misconception is actually an act of cruelty on homosexuals. It's like using a poor confused youth - telling him that he is hated by his father - just to advance your own personal agenda.

The Bible is, overall, a very poor guide for moral character in the 21st century.

Yep. Because of all the restrictions, yes? It's a party pooper.

[Black Dog]

I got one!

God says 'Thou shalt not kill' while God would wipe out a village because some are non-believers.

Yabbut He works in mysterious and unknowable Ways. That's the usual answer, isn't it? The religious equivalent of "because I said so!"

[Black Dog]

Which was not allowed. Stoning to death was a man-made law.

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

Edited September 5, 2012 by Black Dog