How to screw over the little people

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the point was that the punishment does not fit the crime. Clearly you missed it.

No, you have missed the point entirely. It is not "punishment". It is a civil proceeding defined by legislated and administered law. Feeling sorry for tax deadbeats is an altogether different agenda.

[BC_chick]

No, you have missed the point entirely. It is not "punishment". It is a civil proceeding defined by legislated and administered law. Feeling sorry for tax deadbeats is an altogether different agenda.

The "punishment" does not fit the crime is an expression. Subsitute for consequence, whatever.

And tell me this BC... instead of having first-degree murder, second-degree murder, manslaughter, etc, why don't we have just one crime - let's call it "Kill" - and we lock away for life (or execute) everyone whose actions take away another person's life?

I mean, we don't wanna ahem, 'feel sorry' for anyone do we? One rule applies to all, no?

[bush_cheney2004]

The "punishment" does not fit the crime is an expression. Subsitute for consequence, whatever.

Sure..."whatever"

And tell me this BC... instead of having first-degree murder, second-degree murder, manslaughter, etc, why don't we have just one crime - let's call it "Kill" - and we lock away for life (or execute) everyone whose actions take away another person's life?

Non-sequitor....tax forfeited property is not a criminal proceeding. You can't own such property in most taxing districts without paying the going mill rate.

I mean, we don't wanna ahem, 'feel sorry' for anyone do we? One rule applies to all, no?

If you want to feel sorry for murderers too, that's your business. But I still suggest that you pay your taxes to avoid difficulties. Just sayin'.

[BC_chick]

Sure..."whatever"

Non-sequitor....tax forfeited property is not a criminal proceeding. You can't own such property in most taxing districts without paying the going mill rate.

If you want to feel sorry for murderers too, that's your business. But I still suggest that you pay your taxes to avoid difficulties. Just sayin'.

IOW the guy texting behind the wheel who causes a fatal accident should face the same consequences as the serial killer who murders dozens of people.

ETA - and for me to make a distinction between the manner in which these two crimes take place means I 'feel sorry' for the texter. Right.

Edited July 15, 2012 by BC_chick

[bush_cheney2004]

IOW the guy texting behind the wheel who causes a fatal accident should face the same consequences as the serial killer who murders dozens of people.

If that's what you want to try and prove a completely unrelated point about tax forfeiture...OK by me. Serial killers who murder lots of people in Canada don't get much more than 25 years....and they get to keep their pensions!

ETA - and for me to make a distinction between the manner in which these two crimes take place means I 'feel sorry' for the texter. Right.

Tax forfeited property is not a crime per se. The tax "penalty" is imposed against the property, not the person or owner.

[Signals.Cpl]

If that's what you want to try and prove a completely unrelated point about tax forfeiture...OK by me. Serial killers who murder lots of people in Canada don't get much more than 25 years....and they get to keep their pensions!

Just like criminals in the states keep collecting their pensions while in prison.

[Guest American Woman]

instead of having first-degree murder, second-degree murder, manslaughter, etc, why don't we have just one crime - let's call it "Kill" - and we lock away for life (or execute) everyone whose actions take away another person's life?

As has already been pointed out, you're comparing a crime and sentence with a consequence for not civilly doing what one is required by law to do. But even at that, it's not the result, ie: death, but the intent that differentiates first-degree murder from second-degree murder, manslaughter, etc., so how do you propose that fits in with delinquent property taxes?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just like criminals in the states keep collecting their pensions while in prison.

That's right...so they can pay their property taxes!

[eyeball]

So what would happen in the case of a mortgaged property in a tax lien auction, would the bank get screwed over too?

I imagine some people beaten near to death by the economy and who are past caring how the chips may fall might get some comfort, however cold, at the thought of that.

[Canuckistani]

So what would happen in the case of a mortgaged property in a tax lien auction, would the bank get screwed over too?

I imagine some people beaten near to death by the economy and who are past caring how the chips may fall might get some comfort, however cold, at the thought of that.

Yes, but they could still go after the mortagee for the balance. So unless they've declared bankruptcy, they're still on the hook.

[eyeball]

Yes, but they could still go after the mortagee for the balance. So unless they've declared bankruptcy, they're still on the hook.

I suppose, but there's obviously a limit to how much blood can be squeezed from a stone. Screwing over the little people, as described and defended in this thread, is pretty much a mug's game for everyone in the end.

[bush_cheney2004]

I suppose, but there's obviously a limit to how much blood can be squeezed from a stone. Screwing over the little people, as described and defended in this thread, is pretty much a mug's game for everyone in the end.

No it's not...owning property comes with responsibilities and legal liability. Municipalities have to finance public services in some manner. If deadbeats can't pay the taxes, then government will relieve them of their burden and find somebody who can. Tax forfeiture is also a strategy for investment owners who want to escape other liabilities for distressed housing.

My old man lost property in Florida a long time ago because he didn't pay property or income taxes, and I didn't feel sorry for him in the least.

[eyeball]

Tax forfeiture is also a strategy for investment owners who want to escape other liabilities for distressed housing.

Yeah, I imagine it's a pretty handy way of off loading a contaminated environmental mess too.

My old man lost property in Florida a long time ago because he didn't pay property or income taxes, and I didn't feel sorry for him in the least.

Did you stand to inherit a mess perchance? Like you say owning property comes with responsibilities and legal liability.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah, I imagine it's a pretty handy way of off loading a contaminated environmental mess too.

Nope....depends on the jurisdiction. Criminal law is an altogether different matter.

Did you stand to inherit a mess perchance? Like you say owning property comes with responsibilities and legal liability.

Not at all...remember, I am an American Bastard.

[Wilber]

Tax forfeited property is not a crime per se. The tax "penalty" is imposed against the property, not the person or owner.

If so, the proceeds of the sale should go to the owner minus taxes and interest owed plus whatever expenses were incurred during the sale. If the state gains equity in the home other than what is owed to it, they are in fact imposing a financial penalty on the owner, over and above any damage done to the state.

[bush_cheney2004]

If so, the proceeds of the sale should go to the owner minus taxes and interest owed plus whatever expenses were incurred during the sale. If the state gains equity in the home other than what is owed to it, they are in fact imposing a financial penalty on the owner, over and above any damage done to the state.

There is usually no legal mechanism to close a sale of such property and preserve the tax deadbeat's euity, hence the term "forfeiture". Most jurisdictions give ample opportunity for notice and payment of delinquent taxes. A property's value is not the same as assumed equity, as many have come to find out in real estate markets.

Edited July 16, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

There is usually no legal mechanism to close a sale of such property and preserve the tax deadbeat's euity, hence the term "forfeiture". Most jurisdictions give ample opportunity for notice and payment of delinquent taxes. A property's value is not the same as assumed equity, as many have come to find out in real estate markets.

I don't dispute the states right to sell property for taxes owed. I'm not referring to estimated equity but the proceeds of the sale. If the state takes more than it is owed from the sale, it amounts to punitive damages to the owner. Conversely, if the proceeds of the sale don't amount to what is owed, the state should be able to go after the owner for the balance.

[bush_cheney2004]

If the state takes more than it is owed from the sale, it amounts to punitive damages to the owner.

Not legally....tax delinquency redemption periods can go on for several years amounting to a sizable tax bill, often more than the property's value (as is the case for many ag land parcels). The owner also has the opportunity to purchase the property at auction.

Conversely, if the proceeds of the sale don't amount to what is owed, the state should be able to go after the owner for the balance.

States, counties, and municipalities are not in the business of playing such games with deadbeat owners. My own home is paid for in full, but I could lose it if we fail to pay property taxes. It's not complicated.

[Guest Peeves]

Yea...this is the United States Politics forum and anything having to do with the USA is never mentioned in the Canadian Politics forum...no sirreebob!

Vive le Yankees, Vive le Rebels, Vive le Québec libre, vive America, vive da nort HAmerica.

Yesereee Bob's yer uncle.

The US of A is certainly on here as often as Ford of Toronto, gays and Dalton, but not as often as Harper.

Evens out.

Lets sing Kumbya

[Guest American Woman]

I don't dispute the states right to sell property for taxes owed. I'm not referring to estimated equity but the proceeds of the sale. If the state takes more than it is owed from the sale, it amounts to punitive damages to the owner.

Or perhaps it amounts to reimbursement for the time and effort involved in selling the property? Someone is getting paid to handle it, and since it's "the state," that means the taxpayers' are paying for it. Furthermore, property taxes cover such expenses as education, road maintenance, law enforcement, fire and paramedics, etc. Should we just put all of those things on hold while property owners take their time coming up with his/her taxes?

There's more than one side to this issue, and the state doesn't collect taxes in order to party and live the good life. Other property owners, who do pay their taxes, shouldn't have to go without these services, or accept a lower level of services, because some do not pay what they are legally required to pay. Home owners voluntarily become home owners. It's their choice, and with that choice comes legal obligations - and consequences.

[BubberMiley]

Or perhaps it amounts to reimbursement for the time and effort involved in selling the property?

$200,000 on a $500 bill isn't excessive, even with time and effort factored in?

[guyser]

The problem with some, admittedly a small number, is that there is no recourse if and when it is discovered not to have been the homeowners fault.

Lets face it, we are dealing with city hall workers who really couldnt give two poops if they make a mistake.

To rectify a mistake one did not make is not only time consuming, but expensive and no real ability to collect . Put in some way to address or have recourse that doesnt cost a fortune then they system would be much better.

[bush_cheney2004]

...To rectify a mistake one did not make is not only time consuming, but expensive and no real ability to collect . Put in some way to address or have recourse that doesnt cost a fortune then they system would be much better.

Easily done with proof of taxes paid. The notification and appeals process is deliberate and lengthy, sometimes taking 5 years to complete a tax forfeiture. Millions of homeowners manage to pay their taxes without any problems or insults for government workers at city hall.

[August1991]

But you didn't pay your tax that year, or a portion of your tax. Say you owe the city/state $500.

Well, pay the tax!

Argus, no civilized society can exist unless its citizens pay taxes. IMHO, the definition of a civilized society is paying taxes.

Is the tax fair? That's not the question.

A vote in an election changes nothing; a tax revolt changes everything. My definition of Democracy? People vote when they pay taxes, not when they put an X beside a name.

IOW, the best measure of whether Canada is a civilized democracy is not voter turnout, whether Canadians can speak two languages or if they can understand oppression; the best measure of Canada is whether Canadians pay taxes.

-----

PS. Why am I posting this rant in the US politics category? Imagine.

Edited July 16, 2012 by August1991

[guyser]

Easily done with proof of taxes paid.

Except when they are paid but the city doesnt know it. Thats the rub.

The notification and appeals process is deliberate and lengthy, sometimes taking 5 years to complete a tax forfeiture. Millions of homeowners manage to pay their taxes without any problems or insults for government workers at city hall.

It may be deliberate and lengthy, but if a mistake is made, and the homeowner knows nothing about it, not even notified until the lien buyer comes calling, and no simple recourse can be made, thats the problem I am talking about.

I am aware millions pay w/o problems. I am merely talking about the ones who, through no fault of their own are left to fend for themselves w/o means to do so.

Edited July 16, 2012 by guyser