Canada is now the MOST expensive country in the worl to make Cars

[Guest Manny]

But it was perfectly acceptable to export American autoworker jobs to what was then a cheaper labor force in Canada?

Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, Mississippi, etc. are not in Bangladesh, nor do they lack such regulations. How dare the Americans build an American car in an American state with American workers. Those are Canada's cars!

I think the problem is really exasperated for Canada, being a small country. A larger country with more massive industry should better be able to withstand some power shifts that may occur. It's easier for people to find other work. So the same is implied with your G8 list, we can look at it and ask which country is the smallest population and GDP.

[Fletch 27]

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/qualityofwork/betterjobs/cases/it05ferrari.htm

You should really cite where you are copying and pasting from. It's clear by the level of literacy that you didn't write it, but you've attributed no other source.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the problem is really exasperated for Canada, being a small country. A larger country with more massive industry should better be able to withstand some power shifts that may occur. It's easier for people to find other work.

Canada isn't so small anymore, and if it wants to run with the big dogs, it should start acting that way. Lose the union inspired victim mentality and compete.

So the same is implied with your G8 list, we can look at it and ask which country is the smallest population and GDP.

GDP per capita is higher than some other, larger nations (by population). Canada got cozy with expectations of foreign capital investment and now the well has run dry. The EMD plant in London was NEVER a Canadian owned company, but the workforce acts like it came from the Queen herself.

[Peter F]

On 31 March 2005, after 15 months of negotiations, a company agreement was signed by Ferrari Auto, by RSU, and by the three metalworkers’ trade union federations: Italian Federation of Blue-Collar Metalworkers (Federazione Italiana Operai Metalmeccanici (Fiom-Cgil), the Italian Federation of Metalworkers (Federazione Italiana Metalmeccanici, Fim-Cisl), and the Italian Metalworkers' Union (Unione Italiana Lavoratori Metalmeccanici, Uilm-Uil).

Wow, The Unions actually negotiated a wage increase. Go C.A.W.! Don't lose heart!

[Guest Manny]

Right here,

In 2008 the Unionised workers for Ferrari made 14,000 Euro's or about 18,000 dollars... Versus 72,000 plus benefits in 2008!!

ZING!!

It's too simple a model to compare it that way. You need to compare costs as well. For example what is the taxation rate? How much do they pay for a carton of milk.

Because in our society $72,000 plus benefits is not that much money. Especially if you live in the big cities. It's actually barely sustainable for the middle class.

If you want to compare you might be better off to look at productivity, rather than wages themselves. I'll bet that they are able to produce a car more efficiently, and not only because of wages. Auto workers are not rich people, but there may be too many of them and they are lazy.

Production can also be enhanced by investments in technology. In the auto industry, robotics are very important to maintaining high productivity. The Japanese certainly are the world leaders in that. They mechanized their industry. And that required an investment. Where does the money these countries use to upgrade their industrial technology come from?

Again it's too simple a model to blame auto workers wages for the problem. It takes careful planning and forecasting to keep a business alive. Maybe we are too greedy in going for the fast buck and not investing in our own future.

[carepov]

Yes, to the extent that shareholders nominate and vote on proxy motions that impact executive salaries, stock options, other direct and indirect compensation, golden parachutes, board membership, etc.

Thanks for replying to my question. My next question is: why do shareholders tolerate such exorbitant compensation for executives? Cost-wise this may not be directly responsible for making our companies less competitive but it is demoralizing and divisive to have such a wide gap between the regular workers (both hourly and salaried) and the executives. I am not sure what salary is appropriate but maybe around $500,000 including bonuses. Don't you think?

[Fletch 27]

I think both parties in this case came to a "Fair Wage" agreement.. 18,000 dollars vs 71,000 plus benefits? Yes, Apples and apples!

Wow, The Unions actually negotiated a wage increase. Go C.A.W.! Don't lose heart!

[Peter F]

I think both parties in this case came to a "Fair Wage" agreement.. 18,000 dollars vs 71,000 plus benefits? Yes, Apples and apples!

So wage increases are fine then.

[Fletch 27]

Ummm With Benefits,, they make 72 dollars an hour.. Add in the benefits that are killing the sector in Canada...

It's too simple a model to compare it that way. You need to compare costs as well. For example what is the taxation rate? How much do they pay for a carton of milk.

Because in our society $72,000 plus benefits is not that much money. Especially if you live in the big cities. It's actually barely sustainable for the middle class.

If you want to compare you might be better off to look at productivity, rather than wages themselves. I'll bet that they are able to produce a car more efficiently, and not only because of wages. Auto workers are not rich people, but there may be too many of them and they are lazy.

Production can also be enhanced by investments in technology. In the auto industry, robotics are very important to maintaining high productivity. The Japanese certainly are the world leaders in that. They mechanized their industry. And that required an investment. Where does the money these countries use to upgrade their industrial technology come from?

Again it's too simple a model to blame auto workers wages for the problem. It takes careful planning and forecasting to keep a business alive. Maybe we are too greedy in going for the fast buck and not investing in our own future.

[Fletch 27]

Im pretty sure its rather easy to say given the numbers,, a DECREASE is in order for the CANADIAN auto worker! Get them closer to the rest of the worlds rate and we will be again, competative. What do you not understand?

So wage increases are fine then.

[Peter F]

Ummm With Benefits,, they make 72 dollars an hour.. Add in the benefits that are killing the sector in Canada...

But those benefits were negotiated with the unions. The company has access to all sorts of beancounters. If the benefits and

wages were killing the company why then did they agree to any wage above $18,000 per year?

[Jack Weber]

But those benefits were negotiated with the unions. The company has access to all sorts of beancounters. If the benefits and

wages were killing the company why then did they agree to any wage above $18,000 per year?

This..

PLUS...

Companies have the same negotiating power as any union...

They can initiate job action of there own...It's called a "Lock Out" and it's a very effective tool to get precisely what they want at the negotiating table.For a very good example of this look at what US Steel did to it's employees at both it's Nanticoke and Hamilton operations in successive years vis a vis pension issues...

Edited June 15, 2012 by Jack Weber

[Fletch 27]

You dont recall the shutdown in the early 90's that had Chrysler ONE DAY from declaring bakruptsy do you? They held them over a barrel and brought uppon thier own demise.. Thats how and why... Hijacking and hostage techniques.

I amd 100% A-OK with the recent staments and announcements of plant closures in Oshawa and other CAW driven facilities. I am 100% A-OK with buying from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc etc who can opperate at a profit for the employees (profit sharing) all while manufacturing a better quality vehicle.

Whats a fair wage for a high-school drop-out that attaches a windsheild wiper? I would say 30-35 per year. But, that can be negotiated...

But those benefits were negotiated with the unions. The company has access to all sorts of beancounters. If the benefits and

wages were killing the company why then did they agree to any wage above $18,000 per year?

[Jack Weber]

You dont recall the shutdown in the early 90's that had Chrysler ONE DAY from declaring bakruptsy do you? They held them over a barrel and brought uppon thier own demise.. Thats how and why... Hijacking and hostage techniques.

I amd 100% A-OK with the recent staments and announcements of plant closures in Oshawa and other CAW driven facilities. I am 100% A-OK with buying from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc etc who can opperate at a profit for the employees (profit sharing) all while manufacturing a better quality vehicle.

Whats a fair wage for a high-school drop-out that attaches a windsheild wiper? I would say 30-35 per year. But, that can be negotiated...

Kow towing to the elite of society...Duly noted!

You do realize that the current wage and benny structure at Toyota and Honda plants in Ontario is precisely because they must compete with CAW organized plants,right?

You do realize that unions at Ford,GM,and,Chrysler have negotiated two tier wage structures,right?

[Fletch 27]

Incorrecto! JAMA (Japanese Auto Manufacturers Assoc) does not even have the "big 3" on the Radar for competition. And JAMA now emplys MORE that the CAW controls in membership!

Kow towing to the elite of society...Duly noted!

You do realize that the current wage and benny structure at Toyota and Honda plants in Ontario is precisely because they must compete with CAW organized plants,right?

You do realize that unions at Ford,GM,and,Chrysler have negotiated two tier wage structures,right?

[Jack Weber]

Incorrecto! JAMA (Japanese Auto Manufacturers Assoc) does not even have the "big 3" on the Radar for competition. And JAMA now emplys MORE that the CAW controls in membership!

Spectacular!!!

And this relates to the similar wage structures between Big 3 plants and JAMA plants how?

In otherwords,to attract potential employees,one must try to have a wage and benny plan close to other manufacturing facilities in the same industry...

Could you explain that obvious relationship to me?

[Fletch 27]

Sure can Jack!!! Believe it or not, Many people hate unions and would not consider working under thier ham-fisted rule. At the Japanese companies, they pay the workers fairly, the compensate and reward on performance, they reward efficiencies with GREAT bonuses, they offer profit sharring (HUGE inscentive in the industrialized world) and treat the employees like gold.

Did i get that Jack? Did that help your understanding?

Here is an Example of how poorly Unions are recived even Internally! I bolded the below portion where more than 50% (!!!) of current union workers dont LIKE the Union they are held hostage in!

The Declining Popularity of Teacher Labor Unions

posted by: Alix | June 07, 2012, 03:58 PM

This week's recall election has thrust union special interests and teacher freedoms back into the national dialogue like never before. After a bitter campaign and an estimated $60 million spent on election efforts, the commanding win for Governor Walker illustrates an overwhelming shift in public opinion against teachers unions. As the dust settles on this historic election, it's no coincidence that according to a new public opinion poll, teacher unions nationally are reaching all-time low approval levels.

In the latest national survey instituted by Harvard's Program on Education Policy and Governance and Education Next, scholars found that the share of the public with a positive view of union impact on local schools has dropped by a whopping 7% in the past year alone. Among teachers, union approval has reached an astonishing 16% decline. Whereas 58% of teachers took a positive view of unions in 2011 for example, just 43% feel the same in 2012.

Spectacular!!!

And this relates to the similar wage structures between Big 3 plants and JAMA plants how?

In otherwords,to attract potential employees,one must try to have a wage and benny plan close to other manufacturing facilities in the same industry...

Could you explain that obvious relationship to me?

Edited June 15, 2012 by Fletch 27

[bush_cheney2004]

Thanks for replying to my question. My next question is: why do shareholders tolerate such exorbitant compensation for executives?

Because unlike lower skilled labor wages, the supply of qualified executives is much smaller and the best talent commands a premium wage. {Edited to add that union membership actually rewards mediocrity and punishes higher piece rate performers.] It also depends on the industry and level of competition. Millions of dollars for a competent CEO or CFO is well worth it if the corporation is being led successfully, is growing, and pays a dividend!

Cost-wise this may not be directly responsible for making our companies less competitive but it is demoralizing and divisive to have such a wide gap between the regular workers (both hourly and salaried) and the executives. I am not sure what salary is appropriate but maybe around $500,000 including bonuses. Don't you think?

I agree that is the perception and it does impact employee morale (mostly during lean years), but as you state it is not the major cost driver. Workers in North America are paid wages many times that of so called third world countries, but we don't think that is unfair.

Edited June 15, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Jack Weber]

Sure can Jack!!! Believe it or not, Many people hate unions and would not consider working under thier ham-fisted rule. At the Japanese companies, they pay the workers fairly, the compensate and reward on performance, they reward efficiencies with GREAT bonuses, they offer profit sharring (HUGE inscentive in the industrialized world) and treat the employees like gold.

Did i get that Jack? Did that help your understanding?

Yeah....

Those forced 60 hour work weeks at Toyota in Woodstock and Honda in Alliston are "treating thier employees like gold"...

(Check out labour legislation in Ontario vis a vis overtime regulations at non-union facilities if you don't believe me...)

Anyway...No...You didn't get it and you didn't help at all...

Soooo....Let's try this one again...

Why do you think wages and benny plans at JAMA facilities in Ontario are similar (if not slightly less) than Big 3 facilities???

Edited June 15, 2012 by Jack Weber

[The_Squid]

Right here,

In 2008 the Unionised workers for Ferrari made 14,000 Euro's or about 18,000 dollars... Versus 72,000 plus benefits in 2008!!

On 31 March 2005, after 15 months of negotiations, a company agreement was signed by Ferrari Auto, by RSU, and by the three metalworkers’ trade union federations: Italian Federation of Blue-Collar Metalworkers (Federazione Italiana Operai Metalmeccanici (Fiom-Cgil), the Italian Federation of Metalworkers (Federazione Italiana Metalmeccanici, Fim-Cisl), and the Italian Metalworkers' Union (Unione Italiana Lavoratori Metalmeccanici, Uilm-Uil).

Ferrari is currently trying to expand into international markets and needs to increase its productivity: to do this is seeks to intensify the use of its plants and make more flexible use of its workforce, by increasing the number of hours worked per week. To achieve these objectives, the trade unions and the company have established a series of flexibility rules for the use of the plant equipment; they have also instituted new shifts and working times without, however, lengthening the working week for individual workers. Moreover, the company agreement has improved the image of part-time work and has broadened opportunities for part-time work, in an attempt to assist workers to reconcile family and professional life.

It took 15 months to conclude the agreement. Initially, several assemblies took place with employees and trade unions. These assemblies demanded that a higher value be placed upon part-time work, that new profiles of professionalism be created and that workers’ so-called ‘multi-functionality’ be rewarded. Negotiations then followed between trade unions and the company. However, reaching a proposal for an agreement was difficult: the company wanted to increase productivity and to introduce a further two shifts per week (in addition to the existing 15 shifts), which would require working on Saturdays and Sundays; many employees did not agree with this proposal. In the end, the social partners decided to add just one shift on Saturdays with a bonus of EUR 20, and only in those areas where productivity had to increase. On Sundays and Mondays, these employees have their rest days. Introducing a 16th shift in the week proved to be the most difficult issue in the new agreement. During negotiations, internal problems emerged between the members of the trade unions, but in the end the referendum was approved with 88% in favour. Currently, about 40 employees are working 16 shifts per week. The climate of cooperation among the social partners contributed to reaching a positive outcome without industrial action.

The agreement also deals with the organisation of holidays, with the aim of combining individual needs while allowing for increasing production volumes. Workers will be able take holidays in a non-continuous manner during the course of the year. The agreement also provides for performance-related pay: it will possible for each employee to reach a pay level of around EUR 14,000 per annum in four years (2005–2008).

ZING!!

LOL. You don't even seem to know what you claimed! They make less money per hour at a Ferrari plant, that is true. But you claim that labour costs to make a Ferrari are cheaper than the labour costs to make a Chrysler. Not true at all. And not backed up by your cut/paste job. A Ferrari would take a lot more labour than a Chrysler and would cost a lot more to make despite labour being cheaper in Italy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Im pretty sure its rather easy to say given the numbers,, a DECREASE is in order for the CANADIAN auto worker! Get them closer to the rest of the worlds rate and we will be again, competative. What do you not understand?

This is fundamental...I don't know how anyone can make a sound economic argument otherwise. Compete on labor costs or lose the jobs...pretty simple.

[Jack Weber]

LOL. You don't even seem to know what you claimed! They make less money per hour at a Ferrari plant, that is true. But you claim that labour costs to make a Ferrari are cheaper than the labour costs to make a Chrysler. Not true at all. And not backed up by your cut/paste job. A Ferrari would take a lot more labour than a Chrysler and would cost a lot more to make despite labour being cheaper in Italy.

And seeing as Ferrari is no longer Enzo's company but a subsidiary of FIAT,and is underwritten by that corporation...

The comparison is utterly ridiculous...

As an aside,3 different union locals of metalworkers under one roof...Interesting...

[punked]

Of course it is. Dutch Disease has made Canada an expensive place to manufacture anything. Welcome to Harpers country where we trade manufacturing jobs for oil jobs then when oil drops below 70 dollars a barrel no one works.

[Jack Weber]

Of course it is. Dutch Disease has made Canada an expensive place to manufacture anything. Welcome to Harpers country where we trade manufacturing jobs for oil jobs then when oil drops below 70 dollars a barrel no one works.

And to "compete",the free marketeers are proposing an RTW "individual workers paradise" to rectify the situation...

Edited June 15, 2012 by Jack Weber

[Moonbox]

It's not all that naive or dense then, since you kind of admit it toward the end of your post. It just takes a certain amount of time, decades, for the effect to become apparent to the common man. So while on the one hand we enjoyed the fruits of virtual slave labour from a foreign workforce that lives below what we consider to be the poverty line, that's come back to bite us in the ass. We've become the consumers, not the producers.

I didn't mean to be insulting, but blaming globalization for the decline of the North American auto industry is both naive and dense. By far the major cause of this was poor value. North American auto makers have lost share over the last 20 years to German and Japanese auto makers, and more recently South Koreans. These countries are hardly 3rd world slave markets, particularly not Germany. Why is it that they succeed where our domestic producers fail? Because they didn't build shit cars for us or get locked into absolutely ridiculous union contracts that paid FAR beyond fair market value for their work. That's what the Big Three did, and it snowballed from there as the union contracts became more and more lavish. The more benefits that needed to be paid, the more the auto makers had to increase their margins and/or decrease quality.

My acknowledgement for the downsides of globalization was much more general and not really directed to the auto sector at all. There are certainly downsides, particularly involving the polarization of wealth in Canada, but as far as the auto-industry goes, Canadians are much better served being able to buy affordable, reliable cars today than they were buying gas-guzzling garbage that broke down every couple of years just so that auto-workers with minimal education could live well above the means of their average customers.