Should we rework the equalization payments for the provinces?

[Fletch 27]

Nope!!! Check your own facts! NEVER,,, Since Dalton McWaste-my-money did Ontarion EVER recieve a transfer payment, NEVER!

You stand corrected. And I am correct. Since Dalton came In., We are dependant on Transfer payments. And they are ever increasing EVEN with the economy growing accross Canada. Tell me why that is?

Time to wean Ontario off the Federal teet.. Ontario has become lazy and dependant on a Federal government that actually understands finance and budgets.. and that is trully sickening

Correct, Ontario has not Collected Transfer and not been dependant on transfers until the McGuinty Government. Something disputed above which infers Ontario has been dependent on transfers previous to McGuinty.

Perhaps the above is a grammarical error.

it wasn't ..... vs wasn't it.

But I will let Fletch defend himself, and give him the benefit of the doubt if it a simple word mixup.

Changing It wasn't to wasn't it, would change the context entirely.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Fletch 27

[jacee]

And so is everyone else. That's kind of how a country works, generally.

I didn't say that they equalization payments don't help, but, have not provinces don't generally spend as much money as have provinces.

http://i.thestar.com/images/04/ad/5af3171743ca892f7f5f14a4ff7d.jpg

Alberta spends as much per capita as Quebec....

Interesting smallc.

Newfoundland, now an oil rich province, seems to give back to its people in services.

For an oil rich province, Alberta seems pretty stingy in spending on services for its people, in comparison.

No wonder Albertans are jealous of services in other provinces!

They should be demanding better services from their own government.

If I could make a suggestion ... perhaps Alberta could spend some money on its HUGE POPULATION OF UNEMPLOYED HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUTS, to provide relevant education, training and work experience so they can help fill all the job vacancies out there!

It's a shame, perhaps a crime, that Alberta refuses to spend its oil profits in preparing its own youth for jobs in the industry, instead demanding federal cash to recruit, relocate and train skilled workers from other countries!

What's up with that!?!

Alberta could take a lesson from Quebec in setting spending priorities: Accessible daycare and postsecondary education are critical services necessary to improve the employability of its own youth.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_by_unemployment_rate

By 2019, the Canadian province of Alberta will be desperately hiring 77,000 people for jobs. Some of the 130,000 people that will be unemployed in Alberta during this era could close the gap on the labor shortage; provided they have an

adequate level of education.

In comparison to other provinces, Alberta has made little progress in reducing dropout rates, 3.8% improvement compared to 5.6% improvement across the country, 2nd lowest improvement (MB 2.9; NL 12%; QC 5.6% improvement).

Pretty pathetic for the richest province.

Is Alberta addressing its own future needs?

Or is Alberta too busy taking pot shots at other provinces that ARE addressing their own future needs and 'lobbying' Ottawa (Canadian taxpayers) for money to import trained workers because Alberta refuses to spend money to educate/train its own youth?

Edited October 3, 2012 by jacee

[westguy]

It's all Greek to Quebec

Licia Corbella, Calgary Herald

Published: Friday, May 07, 2010

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Greece, citizens can, on average, retire with a full government pension at the age of 58.

In Germany, the citizens expected to help bail out the bankrupt Greeks must work until the age of 67 before they can retire. Naturally, German citizens are wondering how this can be considered fair. Why should they have to work nine years longer so Greek citizens can live a life of leisure? What's more, in Germany, most working people pay taxes. In Greece, only 20 per cent pay taxes. Again, unfair. And yet equalization between "have" European Union states and "have not" European Union states continues, even though it's not making things equal -- it's rewarding laziness, leisure and possibly even criminal tax evasion. Why pay taxes if some hard-working Germans will do it for you? Thus the riots in Greece. They believe they are entitled to those entitlements.

Dysfunctional? You bet. We Canadians would never stand for such a thing. Right? Think again.

Equalization in Canada was established to ensure that "have-not" regions could enjoy the same programs as "have" regions and most Canadians wouldn't quibble with that. But that has not happened. In fact, the reverse has occurred. The have provinces have fewer services than the have-nots.

In Quebec -- which opted out of the Canada Pension Plan and administers its own pension plan -- citizens can retire with a full pension at age 62. In the rest of Canada, the age contributors can receive full benefits is 65.

In light of the fact that Quebec received $8.6 billion in equalization payments in 2010-11 out of a total equalization pot of $14.4 billion, it's safe to say that citizens in Canada's "have" provinces -- British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario -- are paying for Quebecers' early retirement, as theirs is the only province which has such a generous, early retirement benefit.

In other words, equalization is not very equal.

What's more, Quebecers can take advantage of $7-a-day day care, whereas, in most other provinces, $7 wouldn't even buy you an hour of day care or babysitting.

Quebec has a very generous pharmaceutical program unlike any other in the country and Quebec university students pay considerably less for tuition within Quebec than students from anywhere else in the country.

For instance, to attend McGill University in 2010, Quebec students pay $3,475 for tuition and fees. An out-of-province student attending McGill pays $7,008, or $3,533 more than a Quebec student -- more than double! Five of the six cheapest universities in Canada are in Quebec -- but they're only the cheapest for Quebecers. Those same universities are among the most expensive in Canada for non-Quebecers.

Sherbrooke has the lowest university tuition and fees in the entire country -- but again, only for Quebecers, who pay just $2,381. To attend the same university, a non-Quebecer, from Alberta, for instance, must pay $5,914 or $3,533 more than his Quebec colleague. In other words, when that Alberta student works through the summer in Alberta to save up for tuition and living expenses, the taxes he or she will pay will actually help subsidize the Quebec student's tuition.

Lately, Quebecers, like Conservative MP Maxime Bernier, have criticized Quebec's overreliance on equalization, saying Quebecers are "spoiled children."

But that's got Quebec's Liberal provincial government fighting back. In its 2010-11 budget document, the Jean Charest government is actually arguing that it should receive even more equalization than it's getting because Alberta's oil industry is keeping the Canadian dollar high, which in turn harms Quebec's manufacturing sector. This is not a joke.

"A rise in the world price of a barrel of oil favours provinces that have that resource," states the budget document in Section E.

"However, the rise in the Canadian dollar that accompanies the rising price of oil hampers the exports of the other provinces. An adequate equalization program can mitigate this phenomenon by increasing the revenues of provinces that are negatively affected by the rise in the dollar, without reducing the revenues of provinces that benefit from the higher price of oil."

In other words, Quebec, which received $8.6 billion of the $14.4 billion doled out in equalization this year, is arguing that it's not enough! It wants more and it blames Alberta's oil industry for its troubles. It's a curious argument since it can be argued that Alberta's oil industry is literally fuelling Canada's economy and largely provided the money that was sent as equalization to Quebec in the first place.

In 2007, the last year Statistics Canada figures are available for all provinces, B.C., Alberta and Ontario were the only provinces that paid more into Confederation than they received. Alberta paid a total of $37.064 billion in taxes and transfers to the federal government and the feds returned $17.567 billion in services and programs, meaning that Alberta contributed $19.5 billion net to the rest of Canada.

But Charest, who complained in Copenhagen that Alberta's oilsands industry "embarrassed" him, is actually making the argument that despite Alberta's largesse, it's to blame for the trouble Quebec is in.

In short, it's all Greek to Quebec -- and that's frightening.

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/sportsmonday/story.html?id=4099a7c3-229b-464f-b216-74a9a8c920de&p=1

If we rework the equalization payments so that Quebec does not get all of the social programs paid for by provinces that cannot provide the same services to their people, can we use the excess money to pay down the national debt?

I don't believe its fair that Quebec consistently complains how badly it is treated by the other provinces yet it get the best deal in the country. Equalization payments were meant as a means of giving have not provinces the ability to meet their basic necessities rather then subsidize their social programs to such a level that the rest of the country can only dream of.

you said much more eloquently how Quebec is taking fromthe ROC - spoiled petulant bastards

[westguy]

jacee-you must be kidding

[login]

equalization should be killed along with income taxes.

[login]

In Greece, citizens can, on average, retire with a full government pension at the age of 58.

In Germany, the citizens expected to help bail out the bankrupt Greeks must work until the age of 67 before they can retire. Naturally, German citizens are wondering how this can be considered fair. Why should they have to work nine years longer so Greek citizens can live a life of leisure? What's more, in Germany, most working people pay taxes. In Greece, only 20 per cent pay taxes. Again, unfair. And yet equalization between "have" European Union states and "have not" European Union states continues, even though it's not making things equal -- it's rewarding laziness, leisure and possibly even criminal tax evasion. Why pay taxes if some hard-working Germans will do it for you? Thus the riots in Greece. They believe they are entitled to those entitlements.

http://www.google.ca...employment rate

there is a hole in your argument.

there is no work in greece

greeks are fleeing greece in search of work, meanwhile turkish illegal immigrants have flooded the greek labour market

hellllooo 30% unemployment rate

people retiring at 58 gives the other 1 in 3 a chance for working

germay meanwile has a 5%

plenty of greek labour for germany

now where are the german jobs for the greeks?

Edited December 25, 2012 by login

[-TSS-]

How large a percentage of the working-population in Nunavut work in the public sector?

[login]

How large a percentage of the working-population in Nunavut work in the public sector?

as opposed to?

[-TSS-]

as opposed to?

The rest of the country.

[ironstone]

http://www.google.ca...employment rate

there is a hole in your argument.

there is no work in greece

greeks are fleeing greece in search of work, meanwhile turkish illegal immigrants have flooded the greek labour market

hellllooo 30% unemployment rate

people retiring at 58 gives the other 1 in 3 a chance for working

germay meanwile has a 5%

plenty of greek labour for germany

now where are the german jobs for the greeks?

So by your own logic,it's good that people retire earlier so it gives others a chance to work?So is poor Greece the victim here?Greece is to Europe as Quebec is to Canada,they can't stand on their own two feet economically.

[punked]

So by your own logic,it's good that people retire earlier so it gives others a chance to work?So is poor Greece the victim here?Greece is to Europe as Quebec is to Canada,they can't stand on their own two feet economically.

Hate people who talk about Greece and know NOTHING ABOUT IT!

[ironstone]

Hate people who talk about Greece and know NOTHING ABOUT IT!

Oh by all means,please enlighten me.I guess I was mistaken that Greece keeps getting massive bailouts to keep afloat.I must be wrong in my belief that many Greeks get to retire earlier than most other Europeans and that there are a lot of Greek citizens that pay no tax at all.

So who is to blame for the economic troubles in Greece?Are they completely blameless?

There is no excuse for Quebec to have been a have not province for so long and the equalization formula should be reworked but I won't hold my breath.

[punked]

Oh by all means,please enlighten me.I guess I was mistaken that Greece keeps getting massive bailouts to keep afloat.I must be wrong in my belief that many Greeks get to retire earlier than most other Europeans and that there are a lot of Greek citizens that pay no tax at all.

So who is to blame for the economic troubles in Greece?Are they completely blameless?

There is no excuse for Quebec to have been a have not province for so long and the equalization formula should be reworked but I won't hold my breath.

Ok there we agree. Greece is in trouble because no one pays taxes. It seems pretty simple. It has very little to do with spending, it has to do with the people of the country having no will to pay taxes. Quebec pays taxes in fact it pays the most taxes in all of Canada. Seems like a very different situation. Thanks for clearing that up.

BTW good luck stopping equalization it is a part of our Constitution which can only be changed if identical resolutions are adopted by the House of Commons, the Senate, and a two-thirds majority of the provincial legislative assemblies representing at least 50% of the national population. Have fun with that one you will end up giving up more then you gain.

Edited January 1, 2013 by punked

[ironstone]

Ok there we agree. Greece is in trouble because no one pays taxes. It seems pretty simple. It has very little to do with spending, it has to do with the people of the country having no will to pay taxes. Quebec pays taxes in fact it pays the most taxes in all of Canada. Seems like a very different situation. Thanks for clearing that up.

BTW good luck stopping equalization it is a part of our Constitution which can only be changed if identical resolutions are adopted by the House of Commons, the Senate, and a two-thirds majority of the provincial legislative assemblies representing at least 50% of the national population. Have fun with that one you will end up giving up more then you gain.

People avoiding taxes is only part of the problem.Governments all over the world,including here in Canada,continually spend way more money than they bring in.This is unsustainable.

Quebec does have the highest taxes in Canada,and they also have some very generous perks for their citizens,like cheap daycare and rock bottom tuition.Given the fact that Quebec heavily depends on equalization payments,they should not have these programs.

[Smallc]

Where they chose to spend their money is up to them. What they spend it on doesn't change Equalization or the payments in anyway.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Smallc

[cybercoma]

Where they chose to spend their money is up to them. What they spend it on doesn't change Equalization of the payments in anyway.

The number of times you have to say this in equalization discussions, you may as well put it in your signature.

[Smallc]

The number of times you have to say this in equalization discussions, you may as well put it in your signature.

Though I'm not sure what good it would do, even there.

[cybercoma]

I think we both know the answer to that.

[dre]

Ok there we agree. Greece is in trouble because no one pays taxes. It seems pretty simple. It has very little to do with spending, it has to do with the people of the country having no will to pay taxes.

Greece is in trouble because it gave up control of its currency and interest rates, and because they were hit much harder than most other countries in the global recession due to their reliance of shipping and tourism.

[westguy]

Signals - you stated more eloquently than I ever could the unfairness of the equaliztion proram and how Quebec exploits it

[Smallc]

Signals - you stated more eloquently than I ever could the unfairness of the equaliztion proram and how Quebec exploits it

And you continue to not understand that there's nothing Quebec could possibly do to get less money without some miraculous way of growing their per capita GDP, which sits at around half that of Alberta. There's nothing unfair about ensuring that all Canadians have a government with at least an average fiscal capacity.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Smallc

[westguy]

quebec is in debt for $250B despite receiving $257B in transer/equalization payments. Something is wrong witht his picture...

[Smallc]

quebec is in debt for $250B despite receiving $257B in transer/equalization payments. Something is wrong witht his picture...

I'm not sure why you continue to spout that. The $275B simply brought them UP to the average, it didn't take them over it. Also, you have to realize that Quebec's debt figure includes the debt figure of Hydro Quebec, which means that the figure is actually pretty misleading.

[westguy]

did you ever think the equalization scheme is unfair to the ROC?

[punked]

People avoiding taxes is only part of the problem.Governments all over the world,including here in Canada,continually spend way more money than they bring in.This is unsustainable.

Quebec does have the highest taxes in Canada,and they also have some very generous perks for their citizens,like cheap daycare and rock bottom tuition.Given the fact that Quebec heavily depends on equalization payments,they should not have these programs.

You know what would cut Greece deficit by half over night? If people in Greece stopped avoiding taxes, then they would have no problem at all. It isn't part of the problem it is and has always been the whole problem.