Should we rework the equalization payments for the provinces?

[Smallc]

I understand that Quebec sucks $8B/yr out of the ROC every year and has received $257B since it started 50 yrs ago.

Since Quebec is in Canada, the money isn't being sucked out of anything.

[westguy]

no it is taken from the productive provinces

[Smallc]

no it is taken from the productive provinces

Quebec has a GDP that most of the world would envy. Quebec is very productive, it simply isn't up to the level of those places to the west of it or Newfoundland and Labrador. To expect every province to have the wealth of Alberta, Saskatchewan, or Newfoundland and Labrador is rather insane. They don't all have that kind of easily accessible resource wealth.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Smallc

[punked]

Quebec has a GDP that most of the world would envy. Quebec is very productive, it simply isn't up to the level of those places to the west of it or Newfoundland and Labrador. To expect every province to have the wealth of Alberta, Saskatchewan, or Newfoundland and Labrador is rather insane. They don't all have that kind of easily accessible resource wealth.

Who is to say as well in a resource economy like Canada your GDP is tied to your resources. If the price of precious metals went through the roof tomorrow and oil and gas collapsed the shoe would be on the other foot and it would have nothing to do with productivity at all. Quebec would be sending money West and I bet westguy wouldn't being saying boo. He might say something like "well they are just giving us what the owe us" forgetting it was the Easts money that developed that west. It is a terrible argument.

[Smallc]

That's right. The reality is, even if resources disappeared tomorrow, Canadian provinces would have GDPs to rival most of Europe. Our resource wealth is on top of our advanced economy. Calling Quebec unproductive is very dishonest. That said, things like their policy that require businesses to operate in french do hamper things a bit, and should go away.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Smallc

[punked]

That's right. The reality is, even if resources disappeared tomorrow, Canadian provinces would have GDPs to rival most of Europe. Our resource wealth is on top of our advanced economy. Calling Quebec unproductive is very dishonest. That said, things like their policy that require businesses to operate in french do hamper things a bit, and should go away.

I agree but their are many that would argue the same thing about our own federal government doing the same for French as it slowly loses ground in other languages. In some provinces it isn't even the second most spoke language yet we keep that up bloating our federal government. Unless we are willing to change I wont ask the same from Quebec.

[Smallc]

That's not really the same thing at all. We require federal services in both of our national languages. What Quebec does impedes business.

[punked]

That's not really the same thing at all. We require federal services in both of our national languages. What Quebec does impedes business.

Yes we do require it impeding the business of governing in provinces where French is a dying language. BC, Alberta, Nova Scotia all have Languages which are the mother tongue of more people then French yet have been sued by Minority French populations to spend huge amounts of money to offer services in a language that isn't even the second most spoken. That hurts their provinces as well. Until the rest of change on outdated language laws I don't expect Quebec to.

[Smallc]

Again, those aren't the same things, and the federal services don't have to be offered at all or even most levels where they aren't warranted by the population (I know, because I live in one of those areas). Requiring a PRIVATE business to operate in a language that may not be convenient or beneficial to them is not the same thing as requiring a federal government to offer bilingual service where warranted.

[punked]

Again, those aren't the same things, and the federal services don't have to be offered at all or even most levels where they aren't warranted by the population (I know, because I live in one of those areas). Requiring a PRIVATE business to operate in a language that may not be convenient or beneficial to them is not the same thing as requiring a federal government to offer bilingual service where warranted.

Accept you know Doucet-Boudreau v. Nova Scotia (Minister of Education) where NS tried to not offer services to a small population of French people and they sued the province and now spend 4 times as much per capita on a French board then an English board. BTW 10% of NS are francophones. What you say just isn't true.

Its fine now but what about when it is 5% of NS? What about 1%? That is where their French population is going. What about in BC? Alberta? Soon Sask? Mann? PEI and Newfoundland will follow. Where is the line when we stop? 15% French in Canada? 10% That population isn't growing. Until we change our language laws I don't expect Quebec to do the same. Sane language laws are indeed necessary IN ALL OF CANADA not just Quebec.

Edited January 19, 2013 by punked

[Smallc]

Accept you know Doucet-Boudreau v. Nova Scotia (Minister of Education) where NS tried to not offer services to a small population of French people and they sued the province and now spend 4 times as much per capita on a French board then an English board. BTW 10% of NS are francophones. What you say just isn't true.

You're not even talking about the same thing here as federal bilingualism. And again, you're not understanding the difference. There is a massive difference between spending tax money to offer language services and requiring a business to operate in a language. Also, the same rules that apply to NS for essential services apply to Quebec...so not comparable.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Smallc

[punked]

You're not even talking about the same thing here as federal bilingualism. And again, you're not understanding the difference. There is a massive difference between spending tax money to offer language services and requiring a business to operate in a language. Also, the same rules that apply to NS for essential services apply to Quebec...so not comparable.

It is very much comparable. Forcing NS to spend money they don't have to a population that is so small you could fit them in a hockey rink hurts their province just as Quebec''s terrible Language laws. Sane language laws for our whole country are needed. I am not saying right now but in the future, what happens when their are twice as many Chinese speakers as French speakers in the country then will you be on board when? All I am asking you to admit is there has to be a point where it stops right?

20 years ago it made sense, there was French and English. In todays globalized world that is not how many Canadian provinces operate any more. It will never change because it is a charter right but at some point does it not make sense?

Edited January 19, 2013 by punked

[Topaz]

If future PM from the western Canada are going to be like this PM, then why don't we just get rid of Ottawa and settle up the national debt among all the provinces and territories and let the provinces do what they want. Just look at the money we save in pensions and wages. The only department of government would be the military and each province and territory would contribute so much a year towards it.

[Smallc]

Again, having national languages and requiring services to be delivered in both languages where warranted and for essential services is not the same. French is and always ha been an important component of Canadianism. That will always be recognized. This is why some people don't trust NDP governments, because too many of you don't understand the difference between government and business and that there is one.

Topaz, read the Constitution.

[punked]

Again, having national languages and requiring services to be delivered in both languages where warranted and for essential services is not the same. French is and always ha been an important component of Canadianism. That will always be recognized. This is why some people don't trust NDP governments, because too many of you don't understand the difference between government and business and that there is one.

Topaz, read the Constitution.

No saying if 5% of your whole countries population is French that you have to offer all your services in that language because of history is stupid. I am sorry you are wrong there is a point where our country has to look at the whole because that would be a waste. At some point you have to do a cost benefit, history is no excuse for stopping progress. Not now but some day in the near future we will have to look at what we get out of what we put in because we are nearing a line of efficiency with our language laws. You keep acting like where warranted is a real thing. I have already posted the court case that basically rendered that part of the charter null in-void. It isn't where warranted anymore it is where ever their is a French speaker.

BTW you are using the same arguments for your support of national language laws and Quebec uses all the time. That isn't right Smallc either you believe what you are saying or you don't.

[Smallc]

No saying if 5% of your whole countries population is French that you have to offer all your services in that language because of history is stupid.

No one said that, ever.

BTW you are using the same arguments for your support of national language laws and Quebec uses all the time. That isn't right Smallc either you believe what you are saying or you don't.

I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand the difference between business and government. Offering essential services is different than compelling a business to use a language.

[punked]

No one said that, ever.

So we agree there has to be line and a debate if that line is reached. Of course if 20% of our population speaks French and only French it makes sense to offer services in French. Where do you think the line is?

I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand the difference between business and government. Offering essential services is different than compelling a business to use a language.

I am sorry you think the government has a bottomless pit of money they take from business and people to spend on many many things. Sometimes when things aren't working the government shouldn't spend money them because that money takes from other things which make Canada more competitive on the world stage.

Edited January 19, 2013 by punked

[Smallc]

So we agree there has to be line and a debate if that line is reached. Of course if 20% of our population speaks French and only French it makes sense to offer services in French. Where do you think the line is?

You brought up a court case and claimed that it said something that it didn't. In fact, it said the same thing that I and the government of Nova Scotia said. Don't be dishonest.

I am sorry you think the government has a bottomless pit of money they take from business and people to spend on many many things. Sometimes when things aren't working the government shouldn't spend money them because that money takes from other things which make Canada more competitive on the world stage.

There are some things above that. Providing services in a constitutionally protected language is one of them. Canada is a country of two national languages, and always has been. Other groups coming in, no matter what language they speak, operate within that framework.

[punked]

You brought up a court case and claimed that it said something that it didn't. In fact, it said the same thing that I and the government of Nova Scotia said. Don't be dishonest.

No what that court case said was that the Francophone population of NS should be prioritized over other students in the province and their schools must be built first. Even though their schools were on a list to be built only after other more needy populations had schools built that their schools should be expedited to the front of the list. Now the same population is sueing the government of NS because that government said it was unfair that 5000 of them got an MLA while in the rest of the province 14000 people get MLA because that population is French.

There are some things above that. Providing services in a constitutionally protected language is one of them. Canada is a country of two national languages, and always has been. Other groups coming in, no matter what language they speak, operate within that framework.

At what point when there are 0 French speakers do we lose a national Language? At what point? Hopefully technology ends this argument in the future.

[Smallc]

No what that court case said was that the Francophone population of NS should be prioritized over other students in the province and their schools must be built first.

No, that's not what it said. It said that they couldn't be delayed until after the other schools. They waited almost 10 years before the court case, despite a promise from the government.

At what point when there are 0 French speakers do we lose a national Language? At what point? Hopefully technology ends this argument in the future.

That point will never come. Preferential treatment is, after all, given to immigrants that speak either official language.

[Accountability Now]

That's right. The reality is, even if resources disappeared tomorrow, Canadian provinces would have GDPs to rival most of Europe. Our resource wealth is on top of our advanced economy. Calling Quebec unproductive is very dishonest. That said, things like their policy that require businesses to operate in french do hamper things a bit, and should go away.

I agree. We can't hold provinces accountable for the revenues they make as they will change based on so many factors globally. We can however hold provinces accountable for their costs. People from the west have a stereotype of Quebecers that they want everything subsidized by the government (education, early retirement, etc). I don't know enough about the formula for equalization or about Quebec's spending habits but I do feel strongly about all provinces being fiscally responsible

[Smallc]

I don't know enough about the formula for equalization or about Quebec's spending habits but I do feel strongly about all provinces being fiscally responsible

I agree with this, and Quebec has probably not been either as fiscally responsible as it should have been, or as business friendly. Still, it would continue to be have not.

[punked]

No, that's not what it said. It said that they couldn't be delayed until after the other schools. They waited almost 10 years before the court case, despite a promise from the government.

Yes they said they wanted to be bumped to the top of the list even though their population is small and had services. Again the same people are sueing the NS government because it said it wasn't fair that their shrinking population got an MLA while being half the size of every other ridding in NS.

That point will never come. Preferential treatment is, after all, given to immigrants that speak either official language.

What is that point Smallc. Give me an idea where you think the line because we agree there has to be a line. BTW if Quebec changes their language laws that day will come which is why they will never change them and I don't blame them.

Edited January 19, 2013 by punked

[Smallc]

Yes they said they wanted to be bumped to the top of the list even though their population is small and had services. Again the same people are sueing the NS government because it said it wasn't fair that their shrinking population got an MLA while being half the size of every other ridding in NS.

But they didn't get bumped. They were getting ignored. The court said that they couldn't be ignored.

What is that point Smallc. Give me an idea where you think the line because we agree there has to be a line. BTW if Quebec changes their language laws that day will come which is why they will never change them and I don't blame them.

I don't actually agree that there has to be a line. It's a part of Canada's culture, just a Gaelic is part of Ireland's culture.

[punked]

But they didn't get bumped. They were getting ignored. The court said that they couldn't be ignored.

And that would fine and dandy if at the time the NS wasn't bumping most school construction projects to deal with a 30 year deficit. They weren't being treated unfair they were being treated like everyone else in that province at the time. Then NS got a huge windfall from nat gas and build schools for everyone in the province. BTW all Francophone students had access to French programs but did not have their own school which they were entitled to under the charter. That is not going to fly if a population falls under a line.

I don't actually agree that there has to be a line. It's a part of Canada's culture, just a Gaelic is part of Ireland's culture.

So you think we offer service in French and English even if there are no French speakers left in the country and this you claim is why people don't trust the NDP?

Edited January 19, 2013 by punked