Even if you aren't religious. . .

[cybercoma]

I'm going to freak everybody out and start wearing a t-shirt that says "BELIEVE".

That's not the same thing.

[cybercoma]

boo hoo.

Is this the kind of guy you want to go to war for?

Like the Catholics who want to fire the teacher who sought invitro fertilization... I'm having a hard time feeling much sympathy for this punk-ass kid. I think you guys had better find some more sympathetic victims before you start howling about how the new Krystalnacht is upon you.

-k

Ouch.

[cybercoma]

In any case, my position is that it is ridiculous to suspend someone for this tshirt. You may disagree with that. Obviously Cybercoma and Bonam do, and some agree with me.

Because you're either unwilling or incapable of seeing how the t-shirt is offensive.

[Boges]

Because you're either unwilling or incapable of seeing how the t-shirt is offensive.

Lots of stuff kids wear could be seen as offensive.

Still to suspend the kid for wearing the T-Shirt is a very heavy-handed.

Then again we find out that the kid did more than just wear a T-shirt to get suspended.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Boges

[Moonlight Graham]

Mine would say "Life is wasted without American citizenship."

I'm offended!

[Guest American Woman]

I'm offended!

Of course you are. The truth not only hurts, it offends!

[TwoDucks]

Every day for several weeks? Dang, hopefully he washed it every day, otherwise the message might not be the most offensive thing about this scenario.

[jefferiah]

Because you're either unwilling or incapable of seeing how the t-shirt is offensive.

Or perhaps because I am not looking to be offended. I understand how you are interpreting it. And I know I would not interpret it as such if it were a muslim wearing an analagous shirt. Because I really don't think the meaning is that your life is a waste. And I do not think that a person in that situation should be asked to remove their shirt either.

Once again, if someone wore a shirt which said "Life is Wasted Without Allah", would you really find that offensive? Would you really think that that person is saying your life is a waste?

In any case, I mentioned your name in the post you quoted to point out to Kimmy that what you and I were arguing is the important matter here, not whether Swinimer is a weirdo or what his other actions were. I am pointing out that you were on topic, and she was not. I commend you for that. And I commend Kimmy for the "butthole" post cuz that was just hella funny.

Edited May 8, 2012 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

Lots of stuff kids wear could be seen as offensive.

Still to suspend the kid for wearing the T-Shirt is a very heavy-handed.

Then again we find out that the kid did more than just wear a T-shirt to get suspended.

Which is not relevant when it comes to deciding whether or not he should have been suspended for the shirt. No matter what else he did, other people could wear similar shirts. Do we make rules about similar shirts based on the unrelated actions of William Swinimer?

[Guest American Woman]

This incident isn't an isolated incident by any means. Another recent example would be the Massachusetts student banned from wearing a T-shirt saying 'All the cool girls are lesbians'. Apparently she was told that the message is political and offensive to some - which she found offensive. As I said previously, there's no pleasing everyone - so an equal ban on t-shirts with such messages would eliminate the problem and let the students and administrators focus on what they should be focusing on.

[jefferiah]

This incident isn't an isolated incident by any means. Another recent example would be the Massachusetts student banned from wearing a T-shirt saying 'All the cool girls are lesbians'. Apparently she was told that the message is political and offensive to some - which she found offensive. As I said previously, there's no pleasing everyone - so an equal ban on t-shirts with such messages would eliminate the problem and let the students and administrators focus on what they should be focusing on.

They should have told them to stop staring at her chest.

But the more I read your posts, the more interested I become in your dress code argument. Though, I would never have accepted it as a teen. But would you allow track pants?

Edited May 8, 2012 by jefferiah

[Guest American Woman]

They should have told them not to look at her shirt.

So what are you suggesting - that students go around with blinders on, never looking at what anyone is wearing? - Because how would they know they found her shirt offensive if they didn't look at it first? Your suggestion doesn't really work in the real world.

But the more I read your posts, the more interested I become in your dress code argument. Though, I would never have accepted it as a teen. But would you allow track pants?

I haven't actually given a lot of thought to dress codes -- I'm discussing what I think regarding t-shirts because that's what this thread is about -- but whether or not you would have "accepted" it as a teen, you would have had to "accept it" by either abiding by it or finding somewhere else to go to school without a dress code - or you would have had to go for a GED. As a side note, most schools do have a dress code to some degree.

But just out of curiosity, what's this obsession you have with track pants?

[jefferiah]

So what are you suggesting - that students go around with blinders on, never looking at what anyone is wearing? - Because how would they know they found her shirt offensive if they didn't look at it first? Your suggestion doesn't really work in the real world.

Of course not. But in this case her shirt was not offensive, and once you have seen it once you don't have to keep looking if you don't like it. They can tell her not to wear the shirt, but either way it does not change the fact that they have seen it that first time.

But just out of curiosity, what's this obsession you have with track pants?

They are comfy, don't you agree?

Edited May 8, 2012 by jefferiah

[Guest American Woman]

Of course not. But in this case her shirt was not offensive,

Then I can only assume that a t-shirt saying "all the cool girls are straight" wouldn't be offensive either, right? And if a group of students decided to start wearing such a shirt, lesbians should simply look the other way, right?

and once you have seen it once you don't have to keep looking if you don't like it.

Generally when I'm around people, I see their clothing along with the people themselves.

They can tell her not to wear the shirt, but either way it does not change the fact that they have seen it that first time.

It changes their having to see it time and again.

What if the t-shirt said "the coolest people are White." Do you think some might find that offensive? Would your solution be to tell them not to look at it?

They are comfy, don't you agree?

So are pj's. Your point?

Edited May 8, 2012 by American Woman

[jefferiah]

What if the t-shirt said "the coolest people are White."

The shirt does not say that. Which one do you find more offensive?

PJ's are also comfy. No point. Just sayin'

Edited May 8, 2012 by jefferiah

[Guest American Woman]

The shirt does not say that. Which one do you find more offensive?

I think they are both just as offensive, in spite of how I personally might perceive it. In other words, different things are offensive to different people - and therein lies the problem.

PJ's are also comfy. No point. Just sayin'

Fair enough. I thought maybe I was missing something.

[jefferiah]

Fair enough. I thought maybe I was missing something.

Well, actually the other day I was thinking, we really need some more comfy alternatives to business/casual office clothing. Like a yoga business suit.

[kimmy]

I think you are arguing with someone who is not me. This is an argument you did not resolve with someone else and are trying to finish with me, perhaps? Invitro fertilization? Krystalnacht? Godwin's Law works in mysterious ways.

Christians are the ones telling us they're the victims of persecution. The comparison of Christians today to Jews in the time of Hitler is pretty absurd, but it didn't come from me, it came from Bishop Daniel Jenky. The invitro fertilization comment was in reference to a Catholic school that is being sued for wrongful dismissal after they fired a teacher who sought IVF treatments. The Catholics are once again trying to present this as a secular attack on their religious beliefs. Or Christians talking about how anti-bullying laws are anti-Christian. I've mentioned lots of examples in the other thread. Christians trying to play victim for political purposes.

This kid is doing the same.

In any case, my position is that it is ridiculous to suspend someone for this tshirt. You may disagree with that. Obviously Cybercoma and Bonam do, and some agree with me.

Hypothetically, if he had worn some other shirt would it still be ridiculous to suspend him for it? If the shirt had said, hypothetically, "White Power", or something like that?

I base this on the premise that (disregarding what anyone else thinks or how they would react) if it were a kid wearing a shirt that says "Life is Wasted Without Allah", I would think it would be overboard for people to take the message that that person is actually saying their life is a waste. I know, I would not even think that.

But we have been told that this is a kid who goes around telling other kids they're going to hell. So it's clear that that's exactly what message his shirt is supposed to give. You'd have to be extremely dense to think otherwise.

So let's examine it from that perspective. And I am not using this particular example because I think "Oh if it were a muslim tshirt this would not have happened." I really do not know what would happen in such a situation, but regardless, it has no bearing upon the illustration I am about to make. Where I am a Christian (perhaps a poor one at that) and you seem to have a great deal of frustration toward Christians, then perhaps the best way for either of us to see the issue clearly is to replace it with another faith.

If you are sitting in school, and someone is wearing an hypothetical t-shirt which reads "Life Is Wasted Without Allah", do you really take that as a message that this person is saying your life is a waste?

If it was being worn by a kid who was known for telling infidel students that they were going to hell, then yes, I would.

-k

Edited May 11, 2012 by kimmy

[wyly]

My first reaction was "boo hoo, someone's feelings were hurt." Honestly, if someone is secure in their beliefs, I don't think someone claiming something else should make them feel less worthy. Still, I feel as if the school offered a good compromise.

he was aggressively badgering other students with his religious message/conversions, his t-shirt was part of his in your face approach...what has been omitted from this story is other students complained they have a right to attend school without religious fanatics trying to convert them, it's more than just a t-shirt...if this had been hari Krishna's moonies or any other weird sect trying to convert students there wouldn't be anyone criticizing the schools actions...

[kimmy]

he was aggressively badgering other students with his religious message/conversions, his t-shirt was part of his in your face approach...what has been omitted from this story is other students complained they have a right to attend school without religious fanatics trying to convert them, it's more than just a t-shirt...if this had been hari Krishna's moonies or any other weird sect trying to convert students there wouldn't be anyone criticizing the schools actions...

Well said.

While the spin some people have been trying to put on it is that it's just a silly controversy about a kid who wants to wear a Jesus shirt and a school that is trampling on his freedom of expression,there is a lot more to the story, and it's been overlooked or ignored:

Judith Sullivan-Corney, the school board chairwoman, showed up to offer her support to students and staff.

Later in the day, Sullivan-Corney said the issue goes deeper than a T-shirt, but the school was bound by confidentiality and could not get into details.

“Unfortunately, it all became about the T-shirt.”

She said both sides feel bullied, so mutual respect must be brought into the discussion.

“We need to respect each other’s views and say, as a community, how do we move forward and how do we bring William back into this school and make him feel welcome.”

Student council vice-president Katelyn Hiltz said the situation has hurt the school and upset students, a number of whom were writing advanced-placement exams Monday.

Katelyn said she supported the school suspending Swinimer after he had repeatedly been told that some students were upset by his proselytizing and found his shirt offensive.

Student Riley Gibb-Smith, 15, said the situation has taken focus away from where it should be — on education.

“It’s ridiculous. It should be a normal school day, but no one can be able to focus today,” he said.

“This thing never was about a shirt. He’s telling kids they’ll burn in hell if they don’t confess themselves to Jesus. He’s said that.”

-k

[cybercoma]

That's just his belief. He's allowed to go around and talk about his beliefs. That's his RIGHT! You fascists won't stop until you have all the Christians rounded up in forced-work camps. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Guest American Woman]

he was aggressively badgering other students with his religious message/conversions, his t-shirt was part of his in your face approach...what has been omitted from this story is other students complained they have a right to attend school without religious fanatics trying to convert them, it's more than just a t-shirt...if this had been hari Krishna's moonies or any other weird sect trying to convert students there wouldn't be anyone criticizing the schools actions...

I didn't criticize the school's actions; quite the opposite, so I'm not sure why you are directing this at me. But he wasn't told to stop badgering the other students, he was only told not to wear the t-shirt. Apparently he could have continued badgering the other students, ie: preaching his beliefs. So really, that has no bearing on anything - the only thing that he was banned from is wearing the t-shirt. (Which has been overturned).

[bleeding heart]

I am simply telling you that you are over-analyzing things.

Actually, you called him a snivelling little baby who lacks testicles. (Which tells us a little about your views of the feminine, of course.)

Which means, of course--by your own formulation--that if anything offends you (anything at all), and it doesn't offend others...well, you do the math.

[TheNewTeddy]

It comes down to weather or not it is okay to tell everyone you meet that they are going to hell.

[betsy]

Well in this incident, it's the schoolboard that made a major boo-boo by their bullying attempt to stifle freedom (Religion and Expression), coinciding with the anniversary of the Charter of Rights to boot!

They missed a golden opportunity to explain about rights and freedom! They could've taught the whiners how to roll their eyes over a message they don't agree with!

Then, instead of admitting they were wrong, and instead of showing a positive example to everyone by apologising to Swinimer - or to any child for that matter if we caused them some grief or offense - they tried to backtrack with this so-called "dialogue."

Well, it's the schoolboard - more than anyone else - who needs counselling and training.

Edited May 18, 2012 by betsy