Fired for free expression?

bush_cheney2004 · April 27, 2012

That article doesn't say it hasn't happened, it says it is "most definitely the exception and not the rule." I never thought it was "the rule," but there shouldn't be any exceptions. Also, it doesn't say it is illegal to ask for passwords, it says "it may not be legal" - which is what I had read, and I believe that it should be made unquestionably illegal - which was my point.

NPR ran a follow-up to this story and convinced me that it is largely bunk. The risk/reward factor for a firm's HR department just isn't there. My opinion is that some people freaked out when employers were able to easily find online social media from those idiots who so freely volunteer such things online.

jacee · April 27, 2012

I don't think that happened here. He just put it on his 'wall' publicly.

Edited April 27, 2012 by jacee

April 28, 2012

You are joking, right? US active duty and ready reserve military are still subject to the UCMJ as members of the armed forces. They can't just pop off about their commander-in-chief with total impunity. The first thing they drill out of you in boot camp is the marriage between one's individual opinion and individual big mouth.

Employers have wide legal latitude to terminate at-will employees for any number of actions.

'zactly, it was his petard he hoisted. If he's that dumb take away his gun.

GostHacked · April 28, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-207_162-57423573/nugent-says-hes-insulted-by-concert-cancellation/

(AP) LOS ANGELES - Ted Nugent said he was insulted by the cancellation of his planned concert at an Army post over his comments about President Obama.
Commanders at the Fort Knox, Ky., post nixed Nugent's segment of a June concert after the rocker and conservative activist said at a recent National Rifle Association meeting that he would be "dead or in jail by this time next year" if Obama is re-elected.

Nugent told The Associated Press this week that his words were not intended as a threat against the president.

What free speech?

April 28, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

What free speech?

I couldn't believe how incredibly stupid Ted Nugent was to say that. But he said it, he did actually have the freedom to say it, and he's finding out that there are consequences to what one says - the people cancelling the concert were exercising their right to do so. And I do think it's worth noting that the Dixie Chicks never said anything that could even be remotely perceived as a threat against Bush, so it's not exactly comparable.

Edited April 28, 2012 by American Woman

kimmy · April 29, 2012

I bet that a lot of the same people who called the Dixie Chicks "traitors" and "unAmerican" and things like that for criticizing Bush are out there today calling Ted Nugent a patriot who's standing up for America and being punished for exercising his right to free speech.

"The Nuge" is noted for playing rock-and-roll devil music, draft-dodging, having sexual relations with underaged women, and having children with almost as many different women as Winston Blackmore. But apparently he's hero to the "family values" types because he likes guns and votes Republican.

-k

April 29, 2012

I bet that a lot of the same people who called the Dixie Chicks "traitors" and "unAmerican" and things like that for criticizing Bush are out there today calling Ted Nugent a patriot who's standing up for America and being punished for exercising his right to free speech.

So you'd bet that there are a lot of partisan hacks? Wow. What a daring bet.

Argus · April 29, 2012

Private employers can and will let you go for saying the wrong things or posting them on facebook.

Private employers? I work for the Canada Revenue Agency, as I believe I've stated before. I can assure you that if I give my proper name and start openly criticizing agency policy, and talking about some of the stupid things they do there, and how incompetent senior management is, I'd be out looking for a job too. And they make no bones about it.

Argus · April 29, 2012

Well unless those comments are defamatory or slanderous in nature that speech should be protected.

Have you ever tried to publicly tell your boss he's an asshole and that you'll follow his orders only if you feel in the mood? You think there would be no consequences?

Argus · April 29, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-207_162-57423573/nugent-says-hes-insulted-by-concert-cancellation/

What free speech?

Are you under the illusion that free speech = consequence-free speech?

You can certainly legally call your girlfriend's mom a cheap whore in public, but don't expect there to be no consequences from that.

Michael Hardner · April 29, 2012

Private employers? I work for the Canada Revenue Agency, as I believe I've stated before. I can assure you that if I give my proper name and start openly criticizing agency policy, and talking about some of the stupid things they do there, and how incompetent senior management is, I'd be out looking for a job too. And they make no bones about it.

Thanks for extending my point.

Michael Hardner · April 29, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

What free speech?

It's a bit different, though. I think the DCs took a bigger risk of offending their fan base, for whatever that is worth.

GostHacked · May 1, 2012

If we simply took orders without questioning them now and then, we would simply be automatons. I question my bosses often when things come up that don't work, or that we know will fail (that's been proven true on several occasions). Most of us have the company's interests in mind when we come across processes and systems that are simply not going to work for the company. I guess the difference is that we actually have a voice in how things are done.

People don't question their leadership because they don't care, it's quite the opposite, it's because they do care.

GostHacked · May 1, 2012

It's a bit different, though. I think the DCs took a bigger risk of offending their fan base, for whatever that is worth.

The only reason their fan base would have left is because the MSM (CNN Fox et al) did what they could to make life difficult for them. The attack dogs were released to do just that and nothing more. But they still had a pretty successful tour after the fact.

IN any case more and more free speech is being killed and or sidelines across the USA. It's a move by governments and corporations in terms of damage control to keep their good face forward. Even corporations don't like dissent, but if corporations and government were actually doing us all good, then there would be no reason to complain. Some peoples tolerance for government/corporation shenanigans is quite low.

bleeding heart · May 2, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-207_162-57423573/nugent-says-hes-insulted-by-concert-cancellation/

What free speech?

Free speech doesn't mean there are no consequences to your words, as AW pointed out. I mean, it's not as if the Nuge got in trouble...just a cancellation, no doubt not the first to occur for such has-been old rockers.

dre · May 13, 2012

Have you ever tried to publicly tell your boss he's an asshole and that you'll follow his orders only if you feel in the mood? You think there would be no consequences?

cybercoma · November 8, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

http://www.cbsnews.c...t-cancellation/

What free speech?

So..... about that..... 1:50 mark.

Edited November 8, 2012 by cybercoma

The_Squid · November 8, 2012

I wonder when ol' Ted will take a shot at Obama.....

Michael Hardner · November 8, 2012

"I will either be dead or in jail" "We'll be a suburb of Indonesia this year"

There have been a lot of bad predictions this year, it seems.

+++

All of this because they don't want income tax rates to go back to where they were in the Reagan era... what drama queens these guys are...

jacee · November 8, 2012

IN any case more and more free speech is being killed and or sidelines across the USA. It's a move by governments and corporations in terms of damage control to keep their good face forward. Even corporations don't like dissent, but if corporations and government were actually doing us all good, then there would be no reason to complain. Some peoples tolerance for government/corporation shenanigans is quite low.

What is "good" can be a matter of opinion. Free speech is important so we can have the discussions about what is "good".

However, some of us choose to limit our free speech in certain contexts, employment being a big one, sometimes by signing an employment agreement or taking an oath of office, etc. That's a free choice. You can work elsewhere.

The soldier who lambasted Obama violated his freely chosen "Oath of enlistment":

"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Ted Nugent, any entrepreneur, can speak as freely as he likes, and his customers can speak back as freely as they want, and express themselves with their feet by walking away from his concerts, etc.

Any employee can speak freely ... and their employer can speak freely back to them ... "You're fired", for example.

Our governments cannot put us in jail for speaking against them.

But if you work for the government, you have chosen to limit your freedom of expression.

There's an immature understanding of freedom of expression out there that believes people are free to speak their mind, while others are somehow constrained from speaking their mind back at them. :lol: Not so.

Black Dog · November 8, 2012

Ted Nugent has been 'Dixie Chicked'

http://www.cbsnews.c...t-cancellation/

What free speech?

I can't believe a guy who literally shit his pants to avoid being drafted was being tapped to perform for servicemen in the first place.

GostHacked · November 8, 2012

What is "good" can be a matter of opinion. Free speech is important so we can have the discussions about what is "good".

I was hired to a position that requires me to think. Recently I made my concerns known about a certain process we are implementing on a national level. I've had a lot of experience with the program we are using. I made some good suggestions, but other members on the team had different ideas (and know a lot less about the program we are using) and my suggestions were mostly ignored.

If you know something does not work, what do you do? Keep doing it, or try to make a change for the better? And if it does not work, it will set you up for failure.

However, some of us choose to limit our free speech in certain contexts, employment being a big one, sometimes by signing an employment agreement or taking an oath of office, etc. That's a free choice. You can work elsewhere.
The soldier who lambasted Obama violated his freely chosen "Oath of enlistment":

I don't think he violated anything. Even as a soldier he has free speech. Just now we can all see it because people post this stuff online. Once that happens, it's hard to erase and the damage done. I question leadership all the time. If I did not I would not be where I am today.

"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

And that includes questioning the Commander in Chief if he is violating the constitution. Or starting another war under false pretenses.

Ted Nugent, any entrepreneur, can speak as freely as he likes, and his customers can speak back as freely as they want, and express themselves with their feet by walking away from his concerts, etc.
Any employee can speak freely ... and their employer can speak freely back to them ... "You're fired", for example.

It all depends how it is done. I've had it out with bosses in every job I've held including the one I have now, and I have quit a couple jobs simply because my concerns were not taken into consideration.

Our governments cannot put us in jail for speaking against them.
But if you work for the government, you have chosen to limit your freedom of expression.

If you have quality leadership, there would be no reason to question. When leadership is not working as expected, questions need to be asked. Firing someone for questioning and hiring a person who will do the job without question does not resolve the root issue which is unrealistic expectations from leadership when most know the process sends us in the wrong direction.

Here is the other side of this. When leadership puts in a new process and we fail to make it work (due to unrealistic expectations regardless of voiced concerns) people are let go. So even when we DON'T question it, we run the risk of getting fired because we could not make the process work no matter what we did. That is not a failure on our part, but we end up paying for the failed leadership and the decisions they make.

There's an immature understanding of freedom of expression out there that believes people are free to speak their mind, while others are somehow constrained from speaking their mind back at them. Not so.

It depends how it is handled. You can be respectful when questioning leadership. It can be constructive. If leadership is not willing to listen, then they are not leaders.

cybercoma · November 8, 2012

I meant to add this last night and I forgot. We're entering 1000 years of darkness. Hope your flashlights are fully charged.

Michael Hardner · November 8, 2012

...my suggestions were mostly ignored.

If you know something does not work, what do you do? Keep doing it, or try to make a change for the better? And if it does not work, it will set you up for failure.

You were given a chance to give your input but you didn't agree with the end result. There's nothing more you can do as you're not responsible for the end decision.

I don't think he violated anything. Even as a soldier he has free speech. Just now we can all see it because people post this stuff online. Once that happens, it's hard to erase and the damage done. I question leadership all the time. If I did not I would not be where I am today.

If you have quality leadership, there would be no reason to question.

Disagree - Questions and answers are a natural type of communication so they should always be happening.

Michael Hardner · November 8, 2012

I meant to add this last night and I forgot. We're entering 1000 years of darkness. Hope your flashlights are fully charged.

"Socialism or something worse."

Let's start calling it people-first capitalism then. The people of America have stood up and registered their displeasure with the status quo of tax-cut gifts to the wealthy. The message could not be clearer. The fact that 30 million stayed home instead of voting shows how little faith Mr. Norris' tribe has in that system; they know their time is up.