Charest v. the Taliban/Students

[August1991]

I reckon that Charest started this tuition kerfuffle knowing well the consequence. (Charest's political sophistication and cynicism amaze me.)

Prior to an election, Charest has divided Quebec society into a yes/no referendum - he has created a wedge issue.

Everyone knows Charest's side: tuitions increase. And it happens that the majority agrees with Charest. (Most people have no desire to pay more taxes to finance students.)

Marois foolishly fell for Charest's gambit and first wore the red square. Now she's not so public with the square. And the CAQ is eclipsed (since no one cares what Legault is wearing).

Of course, this whole thing could blow up in Charest's face. He's opted for a risky option.

===========

Tuition fees? In progressive Scandinavian societies?

BTW, if you read about university tuition in Finland and Quebec, keep in mind that Finland has obligatory military service. Or Norway and Quebec? Norway sells its own gasoline to its citizens at over $2.60 per litre. (I pay about 5 cents per kwh to Hydro-Quebec - people in Boston pay over 16 cents per kwh.)

----

And before the Quebec-bashing starts, let me make a very serious point about Alberta, Quebec, Canada and Europe.

There is something sad about a place like Norway that has its own currency, refuses to become a member of the EU and then preaches to the rest of the world about how to be civilized.

The same can be said of the rest of Scandinavia, or Leftist/Socialists elsewhere who point to Sweden/Denmark as examples of successful collectivism. Why do Sweden and Denmark have their own currency?

AFAIK, Danielle Smith has no desire to create her own currency. Albertans (and people in Quebec) get along. We share a currency, and a federal governemnet.

Norwegians and Greeks cannot claim as much.

Edited April 21, 2012 by August1991

[waldo]

Charest v. the Taliban/Students

Taliban! ... you are so controversial!

[August1991]

Taliban! ... you are so controversial!

Student = طالب

Waldo, what is a legitimate civilized State? And does such a State have the right to use force?

Edited April 21, 2012 by August1991

[Topaz]

I still think students should boycott college and university for at least one year but I don't think it would last that long. Can you imagine professors out of a job? Student loans are growing as faster as consumer debt and some won't be able to buy a home because of the debt. I would take the boycott, non-violent approach and I think the student would win because it would affect the economy.

[BubberMiley]

What does all this remedial ESL analysis have to do with the Taliban? Was Hitler taken?

Edited April 21, 2012 by BubberMiley

[TheNewTeddy]

Charest is the luckiest politician in Canadian history.

He lost the 1993 PC leadership, thereby saving his arse from what happened to Campbell

He did well enough in 1997 that people said the PC Party is back, but not so well that he would be stuck as leader of the 5th party for a long time

By losing the 1998 election he positioned himself for the 2003 election (during which the Iraq War was ongoing, something which Charest might have had difficulty dealing with as Premier)

He won in 2003 and became Premier

He managed to hold on in 2007, against a strong ADQ challenge

He managed to hold on in 2008, against a strong PQ resurgence

He is well positioned to win an election this year thanks to these protesters

And he will have perfect timing when he quits in 2014/2015 as the PLQ is going to be decimated in the following election

[jbg]

I reckon that Charest started this tuition kerfuffle knowing well the consequence. (Charest's political sophistication and cynicism amaze me.)

Prior to an election, Charest has divided Quebec society into a yes/no referendum - he has created a wedge issue.

Everyone knows Charest's side: tuitions increase. And it happens that the majority agrees with Charest. (Most people have no desire to pay more taxes to finance students.)

Marois foolishly fell for Charest's gambit and first wore the red square. Now she's not so public with the square. And the CAQ is eclipsed (since no one cares what Legault is wearing).

Of course, this whole thing could blow up in Charest's face. He's opted for a risky option.

===========

Why is that a risky issue? I would think that ultra-low university tuitions are very much of a special interest issue, that costs everyone lots of money.

Tuition fees? In progressive Scandinavian societies?

Since when is Quebec a Scandinavian society?

And before the Quebec-bashing starts, let me make a very serious point about Alberta, Quebec, Canada and Europe.

There is something sad about a place like Norway that has its own currency, refuses to become a member of the EU and then preaches to the rest of the world about how to be civilized.

The same can be said of the rest of Scandinavia, or Leftist/Socialists elsewhere who point to Sweden/Denmark as examples of successful collectivism. Why do Sweden and Denmark have their own currency?

The euro was a dreadful mistake. It's a typical European gambit to recreate the Holy Roman Empire and upstream power away from the voters.

AFAIK, Danielle Smith has no desire to create her own currency. Albertans (and people in Quebec) get along. We share a currency, and a federal governemnet.

Ask some Albertans how they feel about Quebec's subsidized services, at their expense.

Norwegians and Greeks cannot claim as much.

I'm sure if I were a Norweigian I wouldn't want to subsidize Greek corruption.

[jbg]

I have been asked by one of my regular e-mail correspondents to post this letter. She has been trying unsuccessfully to get it printed in the Montreal Gazette:

I wanted to send this letter to their paper . dot

April 14/12

Letters:

Montreal protesters don’t realize how good they’ve got it

Montreal’s university students have been rioting and marching the streets for over two months against an increase in their tuition fees when they

should be rejoicing they have been paying less than half the tuition fees paid by other students across Canada.

The tuition fees charged by all universities across Canada were published in Maclean’s magazine in November. It listed all the pertinent information needed to help students make good university choices. That once-a-year special issue outlined all the universities national rankings, faculty awards, student awards, average entering grade, student support in scholarships, bursaries, total research dollars and their tuition fees.

All the tuition fees at Quebec’s seven universities were less than half those of universities across Canada. It is discriminating and shocking to read that Quebec universities have two sets of tuition fees, one for Quebec students and the other for those from outside the province.

For example, McGill University’s fee for Quebec students is only $2,168, but $5,858 for students outside Quebec-more than twice as much. Laval University is $2,168 and $5,858 for non Quebecers.

It is the same situation for all of Quebec’s universities. The fees for other provinces vary slightly according to enrolment, but have one price only for local and non-resident students. Canada’s other universities, such as Queen’s charge $5,461; Calgary $5,257; Regina is $5,212 and others vary from $4,800 to $5,800 for all students with no discrimination.

I found one exception in Manitoba, where the French University in St. Boniface had a much lower tuition fee than the English University of Manitoba. This discrimination may also exist in New Brunswick.

I hope the Montreal students will soon become aware they have not been paying their fair share for years and an increase in tuition is a must.

It is time the students hurried back to class and got off the streets of protest

DF

[BubberMiley]

But Quebec would never have had such low tuition if students there didn't march against the suggestion of increases. It would be rather ungrateful if they gave up the fight now, just because conservatives don't want to pay to educate their youth anymore.

[PIK]

I still think students should boycott college and university for at least one year but I don't think it would last that long. Can you imagine professors out of a job? Student loans are growing as faster as consumer debt and some won't be able to buy a home because of the debt. I would take the boycott, non-violent approach and I think the student would win because it would affect the economy.

What I would do is , kick out every student that was arrested and the professor that\ was the 1st to be arrested, fired. This is nothing but a ''I am entitled to my entitlements'' moment. Most students want to go to school and the ones that don't , get rid of everyone of them.

[PIK]

But Quebec would never have had such low tuition if students there didn't march against the suggestion of increases. It would be rather ungrateful if they gave up the fight now, just because conservatives don't want to pay to educate their youth anymore.

Why should the taxes of other provinces go to quebec, so it can have cheap tuition?

[madmax]

But Quebec would never have had such low tuition if students there didn't march against the suggestion of increases. It would be rather ungrateful if they gave up the fight now, just because conservatives don't want to pay to educate their youth anymore.

Over a decade ago... the Students of the University with a PC mindset campaigned for HIGHER tuititions and against those who wanted to keep tuitions down. The government was very happy to comply.

Tutitions are too high...but those PCs students didn't care.. it wasn't going to affect them....

[jacee]

Quebec students agree to call truce in effort to resolve strike over tuition hike

After refusing to meet the students, the Minister of Education bowed to public pressure and called the meeting.

It comes on the heels of strong criticism against Premier Jean Charest who during a public speech last week mocked the student protestors.

At the same time students and police clashed outside the convention hall where Mr. Charest was speaking.

And for weeks the government reiterated that it would never discuss its plan to impose a 75-per cent tuition fee over five years. Now Ms. Beauchamp sated that while the government remained “firm” about the increases, she also remained open to discuss it.

____

Quebec student associations have accepted the Quebec government’s invitation calling for a 48-hour truce in their protest movement that has recently sparked violent clashes with police in a last ditch effort to resolve the ten-week strike over university tuition fees. If more more time was needed to reach a solution, the student leaders said they would even be willing to extend the truce.

...

The group representing university students added that they will remain on strike for as long as it takes to get a settlement.

“We will take the time to discuss what we need to discuss,” said the university student federation president Martine Desjardins.

“ Our associations have unlimited strike mandates....Our students will remain on strike until we get a clear proposition ( from the government).”

...

During the news conference today the Minister appeared concern over the impact the long strike was having on the post-secondary education system in the province.

And the government was also beginning to worry that the social unrest caused by the student protest movement was beginning to attract more and more support from all segments of Quebec society.

An estimated 200,000 people marched in Montreal on Sunday marking Earth Day many of them backing the student strike as an expression of the growing social unrest in the province.

____

The more militant of the three student associations the Coalition large de l’Association pour une solidarité syndicale étudiante will join the talks later this afternoon.

Last week the government refused to open discussions with the CLASSE present at the table demanding that the group condemn the violence that erupted during demonstrations.

The CLASSE accepted over the weekend to condemn violent acts against individuals but continued to promote civil disobedience.

Congratulations to the students on strike.

Turns out it DOES matter to the universities and to the government if the students aren't there.

Now listen for the sound of government squealing.

Edited April 23, 2012 by jacee

[August1991]

Since when is Quebec a Scandinavian society?

Many sovereignists (separatists) believe that if Quebec were independent, then Quebecers would be free to create such a civilized society as Sweden or Norway.

I'm sure if I were a Norweigian I wouldn't want to subsidize Greek corruption.

And yet you're a New Yorker who pays taxes to a federal IRS in Washington and shares a single currency from Guam to Bar Harbor.

-----

Norway has its own currency and Norwegians contribute nothing to the EU budget. They are fair weather collectivists. At the same time, they sell their own resource to themselves at the world price. Moreover, when they chose in a referendum to separate from Sweden and create a sovereign state, the result was over 90% in favour.

Left wing, sovereignist Quebecers are fair weather collectivists too. But unlike Norwegians, they insist on selling electricity at home far below world prices, and they have been unable to achieve more than 50% in two referenda.

Anyway, whatever one thinks of God, Lutheran Norway (Scandinavia) is little like Roman Catholic Quebec.

Charest is the luckiest politician in Canadian history.

Who said that luck is when opportunity meets preparation? Is it a Chinese character?

To me, Charest is the proverbial alley cat - a cynical survivor. We'll soon find out whether he has used his nine lives.

Edited April 24, 2012 by August1991

[August1991]

I have been asked by one of my regular e-mail correspondents to post this letter. She has been trying unsuccessfully to get it printed in the Montreal Gazette:

....

All the tuition fees at Quebec’s seven universities were less than half those of universities across Canada. It is discriminating and shocking to read that Quebec universities have two sets of tuition fees, one for Quebec students and the other for those from outside the province.

As in the US where state universities (eg. UCLA or SUNY) charge out-of-state students higher fees, Canadian provinces set different tuition fees according to residency. I'm not defending the practice; I'm simply saying that Quebec universities are not alone.

As to Quebec's low tuition fees, why not? In fact, why should students pay tuition fees at all?

For some reason, we in North America in general collectively pay tuition fees/costs for students in elementary school and high school. And at age 18, we suddenly stop. Why?

------

Last point: About 30% of Quebec high school students are in private schools with tuition fees. IOW, many of the kids demonstrating in Quebec went to secondary schools requiring an annual tuition fee of $3000 or so! To make matters worse, these secondary schools can choose their students yet receive a state subsidy.

Take Brébeuf, for example. It's a "private" secondary school in Montreal covering Grades 7 to 11. It chooses its students and annual tuition fees are about $3000. The Quebec government subsidizes Brébeuf with about $12,000 for each student.

About 30% of secondary school students in Quebec are in such "private" schools.

Oh, the irony of the collectivist ideology!

Edited April 24, 2012 by August1991

[jbg]

Many sovereignists (separatists) believe that if Quebec were independent, then Quebecers would be free to create such a civilized society as Sweden or Norway.

On whose dime though? Those societies are expensive to run and lacking the resources of Norway or the productivity of Sweden I don't see the affordability of that kind of a subsidized society.

And yet you're a New Yorker who pays taxes to a federal IRS in Washington and shares a single currency from Guam to Bar Harbor.

-----

Yes, we're a single country. Greece is not in Norway.

Norway has its own currency and Norwegians contribute nothing to the EU budget. They are fair weather collectivists. At the same time, they sell their own resource to themselves at the world price.

What's wrong with any of that?

Moreover, when they chose in a referendum to separate from Sweden and create a sovereign state, the result was over 90% in favour.

Different languages, and historical independence.

[jacee]

As in the US where state universities (eg. UCLA or SUNY) charge out-of-state students higher fees, Canadian provinces set different tuition fees according to residency. I'm not defending the practice; I'm simply saying that Quebec universities are not alone.

As to Quebec's low tuition fees, why not? In fact, why should students pay tuition fees at all?

For some reason, we in North America in general collectively pay tuition fees/costs for students in elementary school and high school. And at age 18, we suddenly stop. Why?

Because we haven't fought to get rid of tuition, and in fact we've let it almost quadruple in less than 2 decades.

------

Last point: About 30% of Quebec high school students are in private schools with tuition fees. IOW, many of the kids demonstrating in Quebec went to secondary schools requiring an annual tuition fee of $3000 or so!

Are you sure the 30% private school students are the ones demonstrating? I would expect that more of the other 70% of students would be demonstrating, but those whose parents pay their expenses wouldn't have as much at stake.

[August1991]

Are you sure the 30% private school students are the ones demonstrating? I would expect that more of the other 70% of students would be demonstrating, but those whose parents pay their expenses wouldn't have as much at stake.

jacee, the most vociferous student leader, Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois, spokesperson for Classe, graduated from Regina Assumpta

À titre de co-porte-parole de la Coalition large de l'Association pour une solidarité syndicale étudiante (CLASSE), Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois se retrouve souvent pris entre l'arbre et l'écorce.

...

Au Collège Regina Assumpta, école privée réputée de Montréal, il obtenait de bons résultats, mais remettait tout en question.

La Presse

BTW, Regina Assumpta is one of the best rated schools according to the Fraser Institute list.

=========================

On whose dime though? Those societies are expensive to run and lacking the resources of Norway or the productivity of Sweden I don't see the affordability of that kind of a subsidized society.

Norway, pop. 5 million, or Sweden, pop. 9 million, are arguably more successful societies than the US. Moreover, these civilized societies are sustainable.

Yes, we're a single country. Greece is not in Norway.

The United States is, well, a federation of united states. Nowadays, these states share a single currency and a single tax collection agency. Sustainable Norway (and Sweden) are different states.

Anyway, jbg, if you want to turn this thread into a discussion of the US, let's take this outside. Start another thread elsewhere.

Edited April 28, 2012 by August1991

[August1991]

Are you sure the 30% private school students are the ones demonstrating?

As a quick guess, I would say that about 50% of francophone university students in Quebec come from private schools.

More pointedly, the striking students are largely francophone, pure laine, de souche - and the leaders have typical French-Canadian names: Tremblay, Gauthier, Dubois, Caron, Desjardins - even to the 1980s Quebec style of double-barreled names: Guy A. Cirque-Soleil.

And yet, Quebec university students are now a product of the Bill 101. But few "foreigners" are involved in this strike.

There is a marked split in this strike. Social sciences, liberal arts, French speaking tend to strike. Engineering, hard sciences, English speaking tend not to strike.

-----

In my OP, I suggest that Charest is engaging in wedge politics in order to win re-election.

What are wedge politics? Let me venture an answer. Two ambitious politicians eliminate all other competitors and then corner an indifferent voter into making a choice: vote A, vote B, don't vote. The smartest politician of the two frames the choice in favourable terms.

Apparently, Charest aims to make the next Quebec election a referendum on student fees and public disorder. In early March, Pauline Marois mistakenly wore a red square. And in May, François Legault - well, who's he?

Edited April 28, 2012 by August1991

[jacee]

As a quick guess, I would say that about 50% of francophone university students in Quebec come from private schools.

More pointedly, the striking students are largely francophone, pure laine, de souche - and the leaders have typical French-Canadian names: Tremblay, Gauthier, Dubois, Caron, Desjardins - even to the 1980s Quebec style of double-barreled names: Guy A. Cirque-Soleil.

And yet, Quebec university students are now a product of the Bill 101. But few "foreigners" are involved in this strike.

There is a marked split in this strike. Social sciences, liberal arts, French speaking tend to strike. Engineering, hard sciences, English speaking tend not to

And this matters ... why?

I expect parents who pay the shot will appreciate no increase.

Are you saying 'engineering, hard science' etc students who are not politically engaged will just pay the increase and not take any decrease that is negotiated?

No, of course not.

Are you saying that anglophone and allophone students won't participate in any negotiated settlement?

Of course not.

So what significance, if any, does this 'split' have, if indeed it exists at all? (Proof?)

Does any negotiated settlement not apply to college students (represented by CLASSE) as well, if Charest refuses to negotiate with them?

Of course it does ... and college students will have to respond to any proposal through their reps.

All these divide-and-conquer tactics are just that: political attack-and-destroy tactics not of any real significance in regard to negotiation of a settlement.

_____

I went looking ... here's evidence of a "split":

http://www.thestar.com/iphone/news/canada/article/1169707--diplomas-graduation-now-at-stake-in-quebec-student-protest

Division is stirring among students at the Cégep de Saint-Laurent because three among them successfully obtained a court njunction ordering their particular courses to go ahead in spite of the strike— whose pursuit had been voted for by 90 per cent of students in an assembly earlier in April.

...

François Xavier Blanchet, 21, already lost a lucrative summer-camp counselor job as a result of the long strike. The architecture program student was supposed to start in mid-May — mpossible now.

There is some bitterness, partly because he opposes the strike. “But we have to ive with it,” he said. “I respect democracy.”

It’s a minority of institutions and students currently on strike in Quebec. Out of 48 cegeps, 21 are on strike nvolving 83,000 students out of the total 175,000. Including universities, about 165,000 Quebec students are boycotting classes out of more than 400,000.

They don't mention the numbers for (nonCegep) colleges. Strange, as they are the largest and most militant group.

A big "minority" ... and will the rest of them turn down a negotiated settlement?

I doubt that.

Edited April 28, 2012 by jacee

[jbg]

Norway, pop. 5 million, or Sweden, pop. 9 million, are arguably more successful societies than the US. Moreover, these civilized societies are sustainable.

(not about the U.S.) Quebec does not have the advantages that Sweden and Norway have.

[bush_cheney2004]

(not about the U.S.) Quebec does not have the advantages that Sweden and Norway have.

Agreed...Norway was the largest per capita recipient of U.S. Marshall Plan dollars post WW2.

However, a much bigger effect upon Norway—much bigger than the actual monetary amounts that it received—was the creation of viable economies on the continent of Europe. Norway became a major exporter of fish and other goods to West Germany, France and other European nations. Without the Marshall Plan, these economies would not have had the money to import Norway’s products.

[August1991]

And this matters ... why?

You ask why it matters which students are on "strike/boycott". It matters in political terms.

It also matters if you believe that not all BAs are the same. IOW, if you believe that higher education in some fields has reached the point of diminishing marginal utility.

And it also matters in terms of "principles".

I expect parents who pay the shot will appreciate no increase. Are you saying 'engineering, hard science' etc students who are not politically engaged will just pay the increase and not take any decrease that is negotiated? No, of course not.

Are you saying that anglophone and allophone students won't participate in any negotiated settlement?

You argue here that non-striking students will benefit if the boycotters/activists keep tuition fees low.

And I suppose some people benefit from free TVs when vandals break into a Best Buy. (jacee, education is not "free". As Milton Friedman famously said, "There is no free lunch.")

Does any negotiated settlement not apply to college students (represented by CLASSE) as well, if Charest refuses to negotiate with them?

This policy change does not affect College (Cegep) students directly. It would only change university tuition fees.

In Quebec, Cegep students (the equivalent of Grade 12 and first year university in ROC) pay annual books/tuition fees of around $500.

As I understand it, CLASSE is a special sub-group/committee formed by university/college students. You have to understand Quebec trade unions (FTQ/CSN) to understand the student unions.

I went looking ... here's evidence of a "split": http://www.thestar.com/iphone/news/canada/article/1169707--diplomas-graduation-now-at-stake-in-quebec-student-protest

Division is stirring among students at the Cégep de Saint-Laurent because three among them successfully obtained a court injunction ordering their particular courses to go ahead in spite of the strike— whose pursuit had been voted for by 90 per cent of students in an assembly earlier in April.

Most strike votes in student assemblies were held by raising a hand in public, often with less than 10% of students in attendance. I think that was the case at Cegep St-Laurent.

IOW, the strike votes were hardly democratic.

But here's the money quote:

It’s a minority of institutions and students currently on strike in Quebec. Out of 48 cegeps, 21 are on strike involving 83,000 students out of the total 175,000. Including universities, about 165,000 Quebec students are boycotting classes out of more than 400,000.

The fact is that most university/college students in Quebec are going to classes, professors are teaching and final exams are being scheduled.

I find it interesting which students are on strike and which are not. Don't you, jacee?

For example, is it not interesting that Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois went to a private fee-paying high school (which is nevertheless subsidized by the Quebec government)? Indeed, many of those wearing the red square (Pauline Marois etc) also benefitted from a subsidized private high school education.

Let me explain this to non-Quebecers: Imagine if the Ontario/Albertan governments subsidized Upper Canada College or the Calgary French School so that these schools could lower annual tuition fees to $3000 - but pick and choose students.

I reckon that about 50% of (francophone) Quebec university students arrive through such a "private/subsidized" high school system - including GND.

-----

If those who wear the red-square truly had principles, they would demonstrate to change Quebec's high school system. They would demonstrate to reduce high school tuiton fees to zero.

And jacee, if you had principles, you would at least admit that the Calgarian Harper shares the same currency with Gilles Duceppe, while Norwegians and Swedes have their own currency.

Edited May 1, 2012 by August1991

[August1991]

(not about the U.S.) Quebec does not have the advantages that Sweden and Norway have.

Why not? Quebec (like Norway/Sweden/Finland) is a small homogeneous population living in a large northern territory graced with recent glacier action (providing wonderful natural resources). Quebec like the others has access to the ocean and is on the edge of a large continent of people.

More simply put, Norsk Hydro and Hydro Quebec share much in common. They both borrow in world markets at similar rates and they both are experts in long-distance transmission of electricity. They both know cement.

Agreed...Norway was the largest per capita recipient of U.S. Marshall Plan dollars post WW2.

Once again, the US.

Marshall Plan? That was, like, 60 years ago when the US was a player. Now I fear that the US is no longer a player; it has turned into Paris Hilton. It lives on its name.

But as I say, if you Americans want to be narcissists and talk about yourselves, take this outside. Start another thread.

------

As to Norway and Quebec, modern Leftists would likely find Quisling and Duplessis a more provocative comparison.

Imagine!

Edited May 1, 2012 by August1991

[August1991]

IMV, this thread title is well chosen for two reasons, despite what posters like jacee may believe.

First, this student strike in Quebec (like similar mob action in Greece) ultimately puts leftist politicians (Charest) against people (Quebec university students) who want more from the State.

But second, I use the term "Taliban" (students) to show the folly and ignorance of their complaint. These naive barbarians are at the gate - and we would be foolish to follow them.

If you blindly follow young people, you let 20 year olds direct society. It is a world of the Komsommol and the Hitler Youth - and the Taliban in Afghanistan. For too long, since the 1960s, youth has directed Quebec & America's Hollywood/Washington. There has been a veneration of youth. (René Lévesque was a singular exception. Trudeau, Charest, Boisclair all projected youth.)

-----

Returning to my second reason, while John Maynard Keynes was right in the short run, Mark Steyn is right in the long run.

There are simply not enough people working in the West to support the level of promised State subsidies/transfers. Or rather, as Greg Mankiw argues, we have extended State promises so far that the State can no longer offer the Dorian Gray Pill to all.

As Margaret Thatcher argued, socialist experiments ultimately fail because they run out of other people's money.

Quebec Inc is a socialist experiment (and Charest is a pragmatic politician). This student strike/boycott is the first evidence that the experiment is "running out of money".

There will be more activists in Montreal streets soon.

Edited May 8, 2012 by August1991