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Obama vs Romney - POTUS 2012


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I don't know, but evidently there are some people who remember him. Apparently he just wasn't very involved and didn't do anything memorable while attending Columbia - but his roommates remember him and the university claimed him as an alumnus when he was elected President:

Barack Obama '83 Becomes First College Alumnus To Win Presidency

I don't think the claim was that he didn't attend Columbia, but that he didn't do anything memorable that would account for his acceptance at Harvard. At least that's the way I saw it.

Who knows? He was raised out of the country for awhile and his Dad wasn't American, but I sincerely doubt if someone, even if they had dual citizenship, could attend as an exchange student. I would wager that Obama isn't releasing the records because they are less than stellar, so he very well could have been accepted at Harvard because of Affirmative Action. As bush_cheney has pointed out, that could have been a political headache to deal with. He did great at Harvard, but I think he himself has said that he didn't really apply himself before and did have a period of time where he used some drugs.

Yes, that would be so much fun.

He became President so I think Harvard made the right decision on letting him in.

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Guest American Woman

He became President so I think Harvard made the right decision on letting him in.

I don't see anything wrong with his getting into Harvard due to Affirmative Action, but it would become a political issue, no doubt about that.

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Guest American Woman

Not if another more qualified student was denied enrollment at Harvard. See Regents of the University of California v. Bakke.

According to that ruling, it's only illegal to fill quotas using affirmative action.

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Not if another more qualified student was denied enrollment at Harvard. See Regents of the University of California v. Bakke.

Considering entrance to Harvard is based on past performance AND future potential. I am not sure how much more future potential you can have then becoming president so again it doesn't matter because of what he achieved.

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Considering entrance to Harvard is based on past performance AND future potential. I am not sure how much more future potential you can have then becoming president so again it doesn't matter because of what he achieved.

Wow, I never would have expected such a ringing endorsement for Yale "C student" and President George W. Bush coming from you.

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Wow, I never would have expected such a ringing endorsement for Yale "C student" and President George W. Bush coming from you.

Don't remember ever saying he should never been accepted to Yale. It is up to Yale who they let in and I am sure having the son of the Vice President at the school was good for the school. Much like I don't think I know best who Harvard should have let in. They let in a guy who went on to be President and we question why they let him in? He is he guy who went on to be the first black president that is who he is. Makes sense he got into Harvard to me.

Edited by punked
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Don't remember ever saying he should never been accepted to Yale. It is up to Yale who they let in and I am sure having the son of the Vice President at the school was good for the school. Much like I don't think I know best who Harvard should have let in. They let in a guy who went on to be President and we question why they let him in? He is he guy who went on to be the first black president that is who he is. Makes sense he got into Harvard to me.

Well, he wasn't the first "black" anything if that be the measure. President Obama is "bi-racial".

Bush was a legacy pledge, but no matter, because according to your yardstick Yale could recognize greatness in George Bush.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Well, he wasn't the first "black" anything if that be the measure. President Obama is "bi-racial".

Bush was a legacy pledge, but no matter, because according to your yardstick Yale could recognize greatness in George Bush.

Sure he was clearly going to go on to be a Big Shot the guy was the son of a Vice President (who was in line to be the next President which he became), and Grandson of a Senator and his family was Rich. Of course he was going to be just fine in life and give lots and lots of money to the school. Why wouldn't they want him?

That is my point schools let in people they think will have success in life. Often times that success is linked to work ethics and who achieve good marks but lets not pretend that sometimes that success isn't linked to family and money. In the end though if the Grads of that school do well the school will do well. THAT IS THE POINT of accepting people and rejecting them.

Edited by punked
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....That is my point schools let in people they think will have success in life. Often times that success is linked to work ethics and who achieve good marks but lets not pretend that sometimes that success isn't linked to family and money. In the end though if the Grads of that school do well the school will do well. THAT IS THE POINT of accepting people and rejecting them.

Neither of which applied to Mr. Obama. Grades not stellar and certainly not from a "rich" family. That's when affirmative action came in handy. But like you have clearly recognized, George Bush was going to be very successful!

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Neither of which applied to Mr. Obama. Grades not stellar and certainly not from a "rich" family. That's when affirmative action came in handy. But like you have clearly recognized, George Bush was going to be very successful!

And they saw something in him and he proved them right.

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Right, but that was always part of the affirmative action game. Later rulings would prohibit race based preferences even further. Race or gender do not constitute merit.

Neither does "legacy enrollment," by definition a type of elitist "affirmative action," of which former Presidents of both Harvard and Princeton declared ""the overall admission rate for legacies was almost twice that for all other candidates."

So, it's the children of Ivy League graduates, especially among the more affluent and well-connected, who are the most serious obstacle to others getting their fair shake based on merit.

Edited by bleeding heart
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Neither does "legacy enrollment," by definition a type of elitist "affirmative action," of which former Presidents of both Harvard and Princeton declared ""the overall admission rate for legacies was almost twice that for all other candidates."

The overall admission rate for those with the ability to pay is also higher than for those who cannot. Did Obama have such means at the time?

So, it's the children of Ivy League graduates, especially among the more affluent and well-connected, who are the most serious obstacle to others getting their fair shake based on merit.

Not at all...my sister went to Yale based on merit...and hefty student loans.

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The overall admission rate for those with the ability to pay is also higher than for those who cannot. Did Obama have such means at the time?

I dunno, but I take your point.

Not at all...my sister went to Yale based on merit...and hefty student loans.

Oh, sure; I wasn't actually making any objective claims about the matter, so much as I was thinking that if affirmative action was blocking more merit-based students from admissions, then the (higher) number of legacy admissions must be doing the same, but moreso.

Talking out of my behind, yes, but a (shall we say) educated bit of talking out of my behind. :)

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Guest American Woman

Even if Obama got into Harvard because of Affirmative Action, he graduated with honors and was voted president of the Harvard Law Review. He was hired as a research assistant his first year there, in spite of the fact that the president rarely hired first year students. He made a very strong, favorable impression. Apparently he was Harvard material, and I would wager that it came across in his admissions essay. Perhaps his ACT/SAT scores were higher than others and showed promise, too. I believe he likely did get into Harvard in part because of Affirmative Action, but as I said earlier, I think that just proves the value and success of the Affirmative Action program. Others, like Bush, got in because of his legacy/family; certainly his previous grades weren't stellar, either. Some get in because of their athletic ability. Certainly everyone who is accepted at a top notch university didn't get accepted simply on the basis of their previous GPA's. Universities that have the desire to be diverse realize that there has to be a number of factors involved in the selection process.

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Oh, sure; I wasn't actually making any objective claims about the matter, so much as I was thinking that if affirmative action was blocking more merit-based students from admissions, then the (higher) number of legacy admissions must be doing the same, but moreso.

Agreed, but this is by design. Many university admissions policies (and staff hiring practices) include advantages for legacy students and graduates. Neither are race or gender based per se, but may have that practical effect based on historical access, the very foundation of affirmative action preferences. One is legal (constitutional)...one is not.

There was a narrow window of opportunity in the '70s and 80's (now mostly closed) for racial and gender based preferences that propelled many qualified (and some unqualified) individuals down paths they would never have otherwise traveled because of institutional barriers. Later, this gave way to institutional preferences for "diversity" regardless of affirmative action quotas.

Talking out of my behind, yes, but a (shall we say) educated bit of talking out of my behind. :)

From a purely economic perspective, a post secondary education has been synonymous with wealth and achievement, by families and/or students in a position to "pay" for the opportunity to earn a degree. It certainly is not a right and access to the best private schools wouldn't be in the mix even if it was.

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Even if Obama got into Harvard because of Affirmative Action, he graduated with honors and was voted president of the Harvard Law Review. He was hired as a research assistant his first year there, in spite of the fact that the president rarely hired first year students. He made a very strong, favorable impression. Apparently he was Harvard material, and I would wager that it came across in his admissions essay.

Agreed...President Obama is/was one sharp cookie. His own vice president used tired and insulting compliments:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."

Perhaps his ACT/SAT scores were higher than others and showed promise, too. I believe he likely did get into Harvard in part because of Affirmative Action, but as I said earlier, I think that just proves the value and success of the Affirmative Action program. Others, like Bush, got in because of his legacy/family; certainly his previous grades weren't stellar, either.

All true, but the constitutional problem with race or gender based preferences is obvious. No need to rehash the AA arguments of old, but it was a raging fire at the time if you recall.

Some get in because of their athletic ability. Certainly everyone who is accepted at a top notch university didn't get accepted simply on the basis of their previous GPA's. Universities that have the desire to be diverse realize that there has to be a number of factors involved in the selection process.

And that's what happened...universities and colleges developed very diverse criteria that only used race/gender as part of the overall score. Merit based selection has prevailed as more important (at least for undergraduates at the finest schools) mostly because graduation rates suffer for the pretenders.

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Agreed, but this is by design. Many university admissions policies (and staff hiring practices) include advantages for legacy students and graduates. Neither are race or gender based per se, but may have that practical effect based on historical access, the very foundation of affirmative action preferences. One is legal (constitutional)...one is not.

There was a narrow window of opportunity in the '70s and 80's (now mostly closed) for racial and gender based preferences that propelled many qualified (and some unqualified) individuals down paths they would never have otherwise traveled because of institutional barriers. Later, this gave way to institutional preferences for "diversity" regardless of affirmative action quotas.

Pretty interesting stuff.

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Guest American Woman

Agreed...President Obama is/was one sharp cookie. His own vice president used tired and insulting compliments:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."

Interesting thing about that quote - I've seen it presented the way you quoted it, and I've also seen it written as:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American, who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."

Supposedly the quote without the comma is a misquote, and does take on an entirely different meaning.

All true, but the constitutional problem with race or gender based preferences is obvious. No need to rehash the AA arguments of old, but it was a raging fire at the time if you recall.

I do recall, and I do think that basing admissions purely on race is wrong, but to use it in a formula to give deserved opportunities to less advantaged students is a good thing. As a side note, affirmative Action for admissions also included those living in poverty stricken areas, at least at some universities.

And that's what happened...universities and colleges developed very diverse criteria that only used race/gender as part of the overall score. Merit based selection has prevailed as more important (at least for undergraduates at the finest schools) mostly because graduation rates suffer for the pretenders.

I'm sure the undeserving did fail in spite of the opportunity given them, and yes, that would reflect poorly on the university. Yet, for example, the Supreme Court ruled against Michigan's point system of admission for undergrads while I believe it is still in place for its School of Law, per Supreme Court ruling. Which really makes no sense to me.

At any rate, race and gender should only be part of the equation, which is why I, too, am not supportive of quotas per se.

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...Supposedly the quote without the comma is a misquote, and does take on an entirely different meaning.

Yep, but Biden's remark is common for men of his profession, time, and status. That such remarks are patronizing (at best) is often lost on such folk.

I do recall, and I do think that basing admissions purely on race is wrong, but to use it in a formula to give deserved opportunities to less advantaged students is a good thing. As a side note, affirmative Action for admissions also included those living in poverty stricken areas, at least at some universities.

Yes, but somebody still has to pay. Which brings us right back to scholarship and merit. I clearly remember the day in high school when the runner-up to a scholarship I was awarded asked me if I intended to use it. She happened to be a white female from a lower middle class family, but obviously had good marks and high class rank as well. I considered that my opportunity could possibly cause her/family more financial hardship. In the end, I had a much better option and she got the money for school.

At any rate, race and gender should only be part of the equation, which is why I, too, am not supportive of quotas per se.

It's a constitutional discontinuity that I can't embrace. Merit should count more than race or gender, even though I understand that historical access and wealth helped to cause the disparity in the first place.

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Of all the primaries candidates Romney has been the one whose proposal for tax-rates has been the highest and yet he stil won comfortably. However, his proposal for tax-rates is below that of Obama and he is trailing Obama in the polls.

The conclusion? The American voters also do realise that things don't somehow magically work out by themselves. There needs to be taxes. A society of minimum taxation is a society of the survival of the fittest.

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Personally I think Romney is one of the better Republican candidates in a very long time.

lol...

Obama will destroy Romney.

I don't know how republicans expect to attract independent voters when many republicans don't even like Romney.

I also think that Ron Paul may run third party which will only hurt the republicans chances even more.

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Guest American Woman
Obama will destroy Romney.

I doubt that either will "destroy" the other; likely it'll be a fairly close race.

I don't know how republicans expect to attract independent voters when many republicans don't even like Romney.

From what I understand, the most conservative Republicans are the ones with reservations about Romeny, so there is a good chance he will attract independent voters - as they are generally less conservative.

I also think that Ron Paul may run third party which will only hurt the republicans chances even more.

If Ron Paul runs on a third party after having declared himself a Republican, it could also hurt his political future, so I'm not so sure I see that happening.

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