guyser Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 In the US the best athletes play football. Just like the best Canadian athletes play hockey, just like the best athletes in Jamaica do track and field. And just like the best Athletes in Europe and Latin America play Soccer. No they dont. Tiger Woods plays football? Joey Votto plays hockey? Rory McAvoy plays soccer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 a lifetime (45yrs)of playing and coaching, my friends/teammates an assortment of high level amateurs, and ex-professionals from around the globe...I don't consider myself knowledgeable compared to others... did you play pro soccer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) yeah seriously...Scotty Bowman was a?...COACH!....Ken Hitchcock was a?...COACH!....Micheal Jordan was maybe the best that ever played...so what's your point all three back up my point that you need to have played or coach to understand the game... Not quite. You made the assertion that only thoise who had played at an elite level would know whats up with the game. Of the 4 I posted, 3 never played beyond rec level, the other was the best of them all. The 3 are top rated coaches, the fourth sucks as a GM and has a horrible record. Posted Today, 01:38 PM Boges, on 28 June 2012 - 11:09 AM, said: Oh so not only those that played the sport, only those that had played the sport at a "high" level can any relevant opinion on the sport. yup...non-expert opinions are irrelevant, the equivalent of asking a 6 year his/her opinion on the global economic situation... Bob McKenzie? I have no clue what his background is whether he actually knows anything, he's a journalist I'm not a hockey coach nor did I play hockey at a high level so I've no idea if he's talking shitte and unless you're a experienced coach or high level hockey player neither do you... Not true at all my friend. First I suggest you lose the attitude, I am not mocking soccer at all. I used to but the WC of 1998 turned it around for me. I find it interesting now but still cannot sit and watch a whole game. Can I talk about the game..?...sure, but not with any authority. I wonder if winning a Gemini award for sports journalism is a valid indicator of Bobs worth? The truth is plenty of people who sucked at playing are great at coaching and vice versa. Your idea that only those who have played at a superior level have the right to discuss and dissect the game is ridiculous. I played hockey at the highest level in this country.One step below pro. Guess what? I suck at evaluating talent and knew long ago I was not a good coaching prospect. My brother burned his ankles every time he played, and he is a great AAA coach in the GTHA. Go figure ! Edited June 28, 2012 by guyser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Well the largest sports network in Canada seems to value Bob McKenzie's opinion on Hockey and have for awhile. He must know something.he just needs to talk a good game and know more than the couch potatoes watching him, he's journalist/celebrity...if he's so smart maybe he should make bigger bucks coaching, I haven't heard of any clubs knocking on his door...If it was only people that played that knew anything why don't they just hire former athletes 100% of the time? Most broadcasting is a combination of both. not everyone has the gift to look into a camera and yak without stop...Jordan and Gretzky were the best in their respective sports but have proven to be horrible coaches and/or owners/execs of teams. Gretz was bought out of Phoenix and Jordan owns statstically one of the worst NBA team in history. playing and teaching(coaching) are two different worlds being able to play does not make them good teachers of the game...soccer in many countries in Europe requires a respectable playing background, and apprenticeship and often the the equivalent of a University degree...In Canada all coaches are required to take the NCCP certification, I attended classes with coaches from football, hockey, track, basketball and numerous other sports..owning a team has nothing to do with coaching...In Football Bill Bellichek is perhaps the best coach in the game today, I don't think he ever played. Many of the coaches never played. Some like, Jim Harbaugh, did. Bill Belichick played football and Lacrosse...which is proves my point regardless...I've heard that the best former players make horrible coaches while mediocre/average players can make great coaches. Then again Drew Brees probably would make a fantastic coach. There are no solid rules regarding these things.the theory being great players don't know why they were great, they just do it...but the truth is just because you can play does not translate to being able to teach, you have to learn to teach...there is also the theory that lesser skilled players become great coaches because they had to think harder and learn to be competitive but that's as unlikely as the other theory...some people just make better teachers than others... Edited June 28, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 did you play pro soccer? Div one amateur...alright but well below pro, my experience with pros(ex) were teammates and opponents, incredibly fast, body and mind...you have no idea how fast these players are and how refined their technical abilities are until you play with and against them...I can't imagine how far back I'd be in comparison to elite players, an equivalent of light years I'm sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Div one amateur...alright but well below pro, my experience with pros(ex) were teammates and opponents, incredibly fast, body and mind...you have no idea how fast these players are and how refined their technical abilities are until you play with and against them...I can't imagine how far back I'd be in comparison to elite players, an equivalent of light years I'm sure... yeah i know that soccer players are the worlds most elite athletes at so many levels. people dont realize it wyly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Not quite. You made the assertion that only thoise who had played at an elite level would know whats up with the game. not true I posted played elite OR coached Not true at all my friend. First I suggest you lose the attitude, I am not mocking soccer at all. I used to but the WC of 1998 turned it around for me. I find it interesting now but still cannot sit and watch a whole game. Can I talk about the game..?...sure, but not with any authority.this is a mock soccer thread I will come to the defense of my sport I've zero empathy for those who want to do so and get in my line of fire...I wonder if winning a Gemini award for sports journalism is a valid indicator of Bobs worth?Gemini -tv awards for acting and such...nope tv journalism not hockey knowledge...I was neighbours with a famous US TV celebrity, he wasn't an expert at anything but he was an expert at smiling and talking to a camera, a tv journalist...The truth is plenty of people who sucked at playing are great at coaching and vice versa. Your idea that only those who have played at a superior level have the right to discuss and dissect the game is ridiculous.nope never said that either...I said journalists unless they've coached or played at an elite level are unqualified, certainly no more qualified than the average fan, they're just comfortable in front of a camera...I played hockey at the highest level in this country.One step below pro. Guess what? I suck at evaluating talent and knew long ago I was not a good coaching prospect.My brother burned his ankles every time he played, and he is a great AAA coach in the GTHA. which doesn't alter my viewpoint... Edited June 28, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 yeah i know that soccer players are the worlds most elite athletes at so many levels. people dont realize it wyly. Thats because they arent. But any athlete paying pro is by definition elite , but for varying degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 football thugs need to know how to grunt and are mostly uneducated. This is a very ignorant statement. In football there is a lot each player needs to know. The footwork that a lineman (defensive and offensive) needs to be able to do (either naturally or coached to do) along with handwork is amazing. Most people who watch NFL/CFL don't watch the lines, and the TV rarely follows them for long. If you ever go to a game spend a quarter just watching the lineman. You will see some of the most talented obese athletes in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 not true I posted played elite OR coached Dude, this is getting bad... Go ahead and roll your eyes, but your quote is in my earlier post where you stated, and I quote... Boges said: Oh so not only those that played the sport, only those that had played the sport at a "high" level can any relevant opinion on the sport. and you replied... yup...non-expert opinions are irrelevant, the equivalent of asking a 6 year his/her opinion on the global economic situation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Dude, this is getting bad... Go ahead and roll your eyes, but your quote is in my earlier post where you stated, and I quote... Boges said: Oh so not only those that played the sport, only those that had played the sport at a "high" level can any relevant opinion on the sport. and you replied... yup...non-expert opinions are irrelevant, the equivalent of asking a 6 year his/her opinion on the global economic situation... I also mentioned coaches but you cherry picked the quotes didn't you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 This is a very ignorant statement. In football there is a lot each player needs to know. The footwork that a lineman (defensive and offensive) needs to be able to do (either naturally or coached to do) along with handwork is amazing. Most people who watch NFL/CFL don't watch the lines, and the TV rarely follows them for long. If you ever go to a game spend a quarter just watching the lineman. You will see some of the most talented obese athletes in the world. which is the greater issue here people making assumptions about the attractiveness of a sports without knowing what is involved, I enjoy a soccer match purely for the tactics and technical aspects I don't need a goal to get a woodie...I have good friend who played baseball at a semi-pro level he really knows his baseball he tried to explain some of the more intricate parts of it to me and I realize that most of the stuff that goes on in a baseball game I don't see or understand when I do see it, I don't feel a need to start a thread insulting baseball and those who play it...baseball is not my sport I watch very little of it but I don't insult those who play watch and enjoy it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 which is the greater issue here people making assumptions about the attractiveness of a sports without knowing what is involved, I enjoy a soccer match purely for the tactics and technical aspects I don't need a goal to get a woodie...I have good friend who played baseball at a semi-pro level he really knows his baseball he tried to explain some of the more intricate parts of it to me and I realize that most of the stuff that goes on in a baseball game I don't see or understand when I do see it, I don't feel a need to start a thread insulting baseball and those who play it...baseball is not my sport I watch very little of it but I don't insult those who play watch and enjoy it... Yes, I largely agree with you. The one area we disagree is where you think one has to have played a sport to have an understanding of it. One just has to be observant and have some intelligence. Athleticism also helps. Sports ain't rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) This is a very ignorant statement. In football there is a lot each player needs to know. The footwork that a lineman (defensive and offensive) needs to be able to do (either naturally or coached to do) along with handwork is amazing. Most people who watch NFL/CFL don't watch the lines, and the TV rarely follows them for long. If you ever go to a game spend a quarter just watching the lineman. You will see some of the most talented obese athletes in the world. You have that exactly right... It's hard to do on TV,but, if you go to a live game I always watch the line of scrimmage and who's winning that battle consistently...That's where the game is won and lost!! And if anyone ever watches how an O-Line moves in unison,and watches the splits,they would see exactly how intricate gameplanning and how atheltic one needs to be to pull it off... Edited June 29, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 You have that exactly right... It's hard to do on TV,but, if you go to a live game I always watch the line of scrimmage and who's winning that battle consistently...That's where the game is won and lost!! And if anyone ever watches how an O-Line moves in unison,and watches the splits,they would see exactly how intricate gameplanning and how atheltic one needs to be to pull it off... the oline football players are just good at grunting. there is no skill in being a o lineman. just the ability to grunt and have worse breath than your opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Div one amateur...alright but well below pro, my experience with pros(ex) were teammates and opponents, incredibly fast, body and mind...you have no idea how fast these players are and how refined their technical abilities are until you play with and against them...I can't imagine how far back I'd be in comparison to elite players, an equivalent of light years I'm sure... interesting. are you origianlly from europe wyly? who is your early favorite for the 2014 world cup? i think the netherlands will be very strong by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 interesting. are you origianlly from europe wyly? yeswho is your early favorite for the 2014 world cup? i think the netherlands will be very strong by then. in any given tournament a good draw in the group stage, an astute manager, a hot striker, a little bit of luck and any one of 8 countries can win the WC...Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal are all contenders add in few wild cards such as Ghana, Ivory Coast, Uruguay, with a run of good form could find themselves in the final...2014 early favorite has to be be Brazil, always a strong contender every WC but playing at home will make them much more formidable, and if my memory is correct no European team has ever won the WC in the Americas and until Spain won in S Africa no European team has ever won outside of Europe...so I'll pick Brazil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 yes in any given tournament a good draw in the group stage, an astute manager, a hot striker, a little bit of luck and any one of 8 countries can win the WC...Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal are all contenders add in few wild cards such as Ghana, Ivory Coast, Uruguay, with a run of good form could find themselves in the final...2014 early favorite has to be be Brazil, always a strong contender every WC but playing at home will make them much more formidable, and if my memory is correct no European team has ever won the WC in the Americas and until Spain won in S Africa no European team has ever won outside of Europe...so I'll pick Brazil... wyly, do you think playing in front of the home crowd will cause too much pressure for the Brazilians despite how great they are? what part of europe are you from and when and why did you come to canada? spain is looking too good this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I also mentioned coaches but you cherry picked the quotes didn't you You could have scrolled back and seen the whoel quote was included. Just for the record though, one doesnt have to have played the sport at any level, been athletic, nor even competent at the sport to be able to have insight/coach/comment/pontificate/be a talking head on tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) You could have scrolled back and seen the whoel quote was included. it was still cherry picked..Just for the record though, one doesnt have to have played the sport at any level, been athletic, nor even competent at the sport to be able to have insight/coach/comment/pontificate/be a talking head on tv.no that's just wrong, it's The Dunning Kruger Effectnon experts believing they have an expertise they don't...I watched a game this year where a couple of analysts were ex-professionals while they have some expertise they were badly out of sync with today's game, the game is not the same as it was 40yrs ago, tactics have changed considerably as have training systems, Don Cherry would be a hockey equivalent while experienced his understanding of the game is no longer relevant...any journalist/sportscaster that actually believes they're experts are prime examples of the Dunning Kruger Effect that you believe that as well is an indicator of how much you underestimate the depth of knowledge required for any sport...I've been in the game my entire life and would never presume to know enough to be a TV analyst and I've been privy to info from the very best clubs that journalists would never have access to... Edited July 2, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 wyly, do you think playing in front of the home crowd will cause too much pressure for the Brazilians despite how great they are?sure they can lose in Brazil they did in 1950 to Uruguaymy impression of Brazilians I've played with is they're supremely confident,they expect to win every time they play, every loss seems to come as a complete surprise to them...IMO overconfidence will not cause them to lose... what part of europe are you from and when and why did you come to canada? it's something I never mention because it effects forum discussions...coming to Canada was my parents choice not mine, but I'm happy to be here, still carrying EU citizenship I have the option to leave at any time but this is my home...spain is looking too good this year.Spain has been looking great for the last 4yrs, no question that they have been the best on the planet, their technical abilities are superb, I haven't detected a visible weakness in their squad or game plan, maybe the Italian coaches have...Spain will try hang on to the ball forever trying to coax the Italians into opening up, but Italians traditionally play a very patient game and are very comfortable defending for long periods without the ball...an early goal by the Italians would take the caution out of the Spanish game and we'll see what happens to Spain's possession game if they're behind and need to drive forward...If Spain scores first it could be a long afternoon for Italy, Spain is perfectly content to score one goal then sit on the lead denying the opponents any possession of the ball...I hope to be entertained on Sunday, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 sure they can lose in Brazil they did in 1950 to Uruguay my impression of Brazilians I've played with is they're supremely confident,they expect to win every time they play, every loss seems to come as a complete surprise to them...IMO overconfidence will not cause them to lose... it's something I never mention because it effects forum discussions...coming to Canada was my parents choice not mine, but I'm happy to be here, still carrying EU citizenship I have the option to leave at any time but this is my home... Spain has been looking great for the last 4yrs, no question that they have been the best on the planet, their technical abilities are superb, I haven't detected a visible weakness in their squad or game plan, maybe the Italian coaches have...Spain will try hang on to the ball forever trying to coax the Italians into opening up, but Italians traditionally play a very patient game and are very comfortable defending for long periods without the ball...an early goal by the Italians would take the caution out of the Spanish game and we'll see what happens to Spain's possession game if they're behind and need to drive forward...If Spain scores first it could be a long afternoon for Italy, Spain is perfectly content to score one goal then sit on the lead denying the opponents any possession of the ball... I hope to be entertained on Sunday, it will be a great game wyly. i'm going with spain.wyly what is it about a country's soccer program that allows it a nation to be so strong over a long span. brazil, arentina, italy, germany..they are always good. the a team like greece has a great euro a few years back but cant remain consistent. is it coaching or just the quality of athletes. wyly i thought croatia would take the next step to being a consistent power. what is wrong with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 it will be a great game wyly. i'm going with spain.wyly what is it about a country's soccer program that allows it a nation to be so strong over a long span. brazil, arentina, italy, germany..they are always good. the a team like greece has a great euro a few years back but cant remain consistent. is it coaching or just the quality of athletes. wyly i thought croatia would take the next step to being a consistent power. what is wrong with them. Croatia needs a few more really good divers to draw more penalty kicks and yellow and red cards for the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Croatia needs a few more really good divers to draw more penalty kicks and yellow and red cards for the opposition. you dont have much soccer knowledge. its easy to spot people who dont know much. you probably never heard of croatia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 you dont have much soccer knowledge. its easy to spot people who dont know much. you probably never heard of croatia. I have heard of Croatia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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