MiddleClassCentrist Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/10/andrew-coyne-question-isnt-where-conservatism-is-going-but-where-has-it-gone/ This is from some remarks I’ll be making Saturday morning to the Manning Centre conference, a gathering of conservatives, and Conservatives, in Ottawa.I confess I’m not particularly interested in defining conservatism. I do not see the point of knowing whether a given idea is or is not conservative, or in asking how a conservative would respond to x or y. This strikes me as an odd way to think about the world: to start with a box and try to make your views fit inside it. What I believe in are a set of principles having to do with the freedom of the individual, the usefulness but not infallibility of markets, and the legitimate but limited role of the state. There are, in brief, a few things we need government to do, based on well-established criteria on which there is a high degree of expert consensus. The task is simply to get government to stick to those things, rather than waste scarce resources on things that could be done as well or better by other means: that is, government should only do what only government can do. As I say, these ideas are not novel, or controversial. Indeed, you would find support for them, to a greater or lesser degree, across the political spectrum. Nevertheless, there was a party, once, that believed in these things, to a somewhat greater extent than the other parties. That party called itself conservative, whether with a small or a large C, so I suppose you could call the things it believed conservatism. But you are no longer that party. For example, that party favoured balanced budgets. But you are not that party. In fact, you boast of how your decision to add $150-billion to the national debt saved the economy. That party favoured cutting or at least controlling spending, after the massive spree of the Liberals’ last years. But you are not that party. In fact, you boast of how you have increased spending by 7% per year — $37-billion in one year! That party favoured a simpler, flatter tax system, that left people free to decide how to spend, save or invest their money for themselves. But you are not that party. In fact, you boast of the many gimmicks and gew-gaws with which you have festooned the tax code. That party favoured abolishing corporate welfare. But you are not that party. In fact you boast of the handouts you make, often accompanied by ministers or indeed MPs bearing outsized novelty cheques. In some cases, you even put the Conservative logo on them. That party favoured privatization, deregulation, reform of public services. But you are not that party. Employment insurance, Via Rail, Canada Post, the CBC: you have no plan for reform of any them. Transportation and telecommunications remain as protected and over-regulated as ever, while your support for supply management in agriculture borders on the hysterical. You even boasted, through two elections, of how much more intrusive and heavy-handed your environmental policy was, compared to the market-oriented measures preferred by your opponents. To be fair, you have not actually nationalized anything. Oh, except the auto industry. That party was for a robust Parliament, with more powerful MPs, free of the party whip. Needless to say you are not that party. That party was for a balanced federation of equal provinces. But you are now the party of asymmetric federalism and nations within nations. That party was against breaking election promises. That party was against patronage and pork-barreling. And that party was against corruption and political dirty tricks. I don’t know whether you are still that party. This isn’t a question of incrementalism, but of going in entirely the wrong direction. It isn’t just that you failed to do the things you should have. It is that you did things you should not have. And, what is worse, you did them, not reluctantly or shamefacedly, but enthusiastically. You didn’t just sell out. You bought in. I don’t want to say it’s been all bad. You fought the last election on cutting corporate tax rates, and have introduced or promised some other useful tax reforms. Your trade policy is tremendously ambitious, and you have made some tentative, if largely unsuccessful, efforts to untangle the mess the provinces have made of our own domestic market. And now, we are told, we are about to see unveiled a “breath-taking” budget that will finally begin the turn towards smaller government; that, having increased spending by nearly $70-billion since taking office, you might cut as much as $8-billion from it; that the conservatism you largely abandoned over the last eight years can be reconstructed in the course of an afternoon. Good luck with that. You have spent your time in office educating people in what they should expect from government in general, and your government in particular. You have established the criteria by which they should judge you: as the party that brings home the bacon. They might be forgiven some distress at finding their bacon rations have suddenly been shortened. And they will be disinclined to trust you as you begin to tell them some hard truths, since you have been so little disposed to earn their trust until now. Perhaps you will succeed, nevertheless. You have your majority, after all. But consider that even if you do, in 2016, after 10 years in power, you will still be spending more, after inflation, adjusting for population growth, than the Liberals you replaced. So before you ask, where is conservatism going, perhaps it would be better to ask: where has it gone? I just found the article interesting. Mostly because it addressed points of the disconnect between how Conservatives market their party ideology, and the reality of their actions. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
fellowtraveller Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 You'll be greatly encouraged when the new budget is tabled soon, it will restore your faith. Quote The government should do something.
olpfan1 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Stephen Maher (the guy whos been doing the digging for the robocall story)was kicked out of the manning conference Quote
eyeball Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Conservatives said they would get the state off people's backs, but instead it jumps on them harder than ever before. Conservatism is definately not what it used to be. It's still full of CRAP. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
cybercoma Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Good article. Although I would disagree with them on many points, I could respect the idea of conservatism described above and it's for all of the reasons the author outlines that I have no respect for the current Conservatives. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 I don't think you're allowed posting full articles on here. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Topaz Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Unfortunately, the PC sold their souls to the Alliance and Harper, the prime reformer, hides his ideas under the name Conservative and I sure there's PCs within the party that don't agree and some have left because they don't agree. I don't know if some of these Tories MP's realize the damage that the leader and some of his VIP's MP's are doing to their respectability as MP's. In this case, silence is not golden. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 I don't think you're allowed posting full articles on here. Thanks, MG - I missed that. MCC - can you edit, and leave the relevant parts, as well as adding points of discussion ? Thanks. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
waldo Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 You'll be greatly encouraged when the new budget is tabled soon, it will restore your faith. And now, we are told, we are about to see unveiled a “breath-taking” budget that will finally begin the turn towards smaller government; that, having increased spending by nearly $70-billion since taking office, you might cut as much as $8-billion from it; that the conservatism you largely abandoned over the last eight years can be reconstructed in the course of an afternoon. wouldn't it be a hoot if the booster club actually came into this thread and... really... challenged Coyne's article - or tried to, at least. Of course, one need look no further than a few of the article's comments. Where the Harper loyalists attack Coyne, not his words/thoughts, for being a 'closet Liberal'. But the Libs, the Libs!!! Quote
fellowtraveller Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 wouldn't it be a hoot if the booster club actually came into this thread and... really... challenged Coyne's article - or tried to, at least. Of course, one need look no further than a few of the article's comments. Where the Harper loyalists attack Coyne, not his words/thoughts, for being a 'closet Liberal'. But the Libs, the Libs!!! I'm looking forward to the budget, I expect the countless threads will be punctuated with a few exploding heads. Maybe you should double up on the blood pressure meds right now and avoid calamity. Will The Anry Men be obliged to scale back on robo-calling frenzy, OAS reform, the increasingly sleepy NDP leadership buntoss etc. to address the exposure of The Really Hidden Tory Agenda, when the Tories finally open their kimono? Stay tuned. And try to get some rest. Quote The government should do something.
Michael Hardner Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 The flip side of all of this is that left-of-centre scare mongering seems even more off base. Prior to the last election, I had left-of-centres telling me that Harper was going to criminalize abortion, ban same-sex marriage and so on... If we're truly citizens, and not advocates then shouldn't our criticisms be tempered a bit if the party in power doesn't do all those things we were warned they would ? Or should we "BE VIGILANT" lest they try to privatize everything ? Or is all of that coming just before the next election ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
waldo Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 I'm looking forward to the budget, I expect the countless threads will be punctuated with a few exploding heads. Maybe you should double up on the blood pressure meds right now and avoid calamity. Will The Anry Men be obliged to scale back on robo-calling frenzy, OAS reform, the increasingly sleepy NDP leadership buntoss etc. to address the exposure of The Really Hidden Tory Agenda, when the Tories finally open their kimono? Stay tuned. And try to get some rest. ah yes, finally (uhhh, so they say)... out of the clutches of the, "they made us do it" minority! since you're projecting so, tell me, just how far will the lil' ole blue-haired widows have to bend over to support the get-tough omnibus, the jets, the prisons... and the corporations? What do your talking points tell you about where spending cuts are expected - the real cuts, not the ones for optic play? Equally, any comments on provincial government reactions to... getting hit with your described, "open Tory kimono"? Quote
Newfoundlander Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Andrew Coyne rarely says anything I disagree with. Quote
Newfoundlander Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Unfortunately, the PC sold their souls to the Alliance and Harper, the prime reformer, hides his ideas under the name Conservative and I sure there's PCs within the party that don't agree and some have left because they don't agree. I don't know if some of these Tories MP's realize the damage that the leader and some of his VIP's MP's are doing to their respectability as MP's. In this case, silence is not golden. The Reform Party was probably better then the current Conservative Party. Quote
punked Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 You'll be greatly encouraged when the new budget is tabled soon, it will restore your faith. HAHAHAHAHA you guys been saying that for the last 6 years, and I remember you guys said that all through the Mulroney years as well. Seriously you expect people to swallow that tripe? “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool me, you can’t get fooled again.” Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Unfortunately, the PC sold their souls to the Alliance and Harper, the prime reformer, hides his ideas under the name Conservative and I sure there's PCs within the party that don't agree and some have left because they don't agree. I don't know if some of these Tories MP's realize the damage that the leader and some of his VIP's MP's are doing to their respectability as MP's. In this case, silence is not golden. As usual Topaz, your blindness means you see it entirely backwards! All those points in the article were championed by the Reform/Alliance! The fact that they are missing from today's Conservative Party is what makes it a clone of the previous PC party! What's more, those points are NOT with either the Liberals or the NDP! Today, we Canadians of the Reform/Alliance persuasion have NO real choice anymore, except to vote CPC because they are SLIGHTLY more to our values than the others! What's more, at least the CPC might throw us a bone once in a while, even if there's no meat on it. The Liberals and NDP make no secret of the fact that they don't support our values at all. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
punked Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 As usual Topaz, your blindness means you see it entirely backwards! All those points in the article were championed by the Reform/Alliance! The fact that they are missing from today's Conservative Party is what makes it a clone of the previous PC party! What's more, those points are NOT with either the Liberals or the NDP! Today, we Canadians of the Reform/Alliance persuasion have NO real choice anymore, except to vote CPC because they are SLIGHTLY more to our values than the others! What's more, at least the CPC might throw us a bone once in a while, even if there's no meat on it. The Liberals and NDP make no secret of the fact that they don't support our values at all. Except for privacy and Civil Liberties which the NDP have shown they are more in line with the Reform voter then the CPC is. In terms of fiscal Liberties (my money is mine not the governments) maybe the Cons are closer to the Reform voter but the Cons have left you guys in terms of Civil Liberties I can not believe after 6 years of this the Reform voters are allowing the Cons to act the way they act. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 I take the fact that Wild Bill, Topaz and Punked can't agree whether the Conservative party is Reform/Alliance or Progressive Conservative as... proof that the parties indeed did merge the two sides equitably. If you ask me, the new party is PC in practice, with a soul of Reform... a gleam in their eyes that only comes through in those nickle-and-dime ways such as asking REAL women to submit nominations for an award, or in the odd pronouncement on same-sexity in Canada... No one is happy, so everyone is happy. Or maybe the opposite. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 ...there's that saying that in a fair compromise, neither side is truly happy. So everybody is happy... or nobody... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 There's a lot of truth in what Coyne said, but there's also truth in the Tory suggestion that you need to get elected before you can make incremental change. Consider that despite all Coyne has written about the party's very centrist and even liberalish behavior up until now you don't have to work hard to find people who will describe them as a 'hard right', or 'far right' radical government. The level of paranoia, hysteria, fear and suspicion of Harper shows no signs of receding. There are people who compare him to Hitler - unfavorably. You'd think he'd spent the last six years butchering little babies or something for all his cruel, evil government has done. Yet he hasn't even acted like a conservative government! Can you imagine what would have happened if he'd actually introduced a sharply conservative agenda? Even now, as Coyne says, their 'get tough' budget is only supposed to pare down about ten percent of the additional spending THEY INTRODUCED! And even if they do that they'll still be spending more, adjusted for inflation and population growth, than the Liberals did. And yet it was this horrific conservative budgetary zeal which caused Quebec to run away in horror, which caused the squeamish denizens of Toronto and Vancouver such terror and contempt. Bleh. All this zealous, frenzied blather over a dull, middle-of-the-road government. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
fellowtraveller Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 Seriously you expect people to swallow that tripe? No, I expect your head to explode Quote The government should do something.
eyeball Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 As usual Topaz, your blindness means you see it entirely backwards! All those points in the article were championed by the Reform/Alliance! The fact that they are missing from today's Conservative Party is what makes it a clone of the previous PC party! What's more, those points are NOT with either the Liberals or the NDP! Today, we Canadians of the Reform/Alliance persuasion have NO real choice anymore, except to vote CPC because they are SLIGHTLY more to our values than the others! What's more, at least the CPC might throw us a bone once in a while, even if there's no meat on it. The Liberals and NDP make no secret of the fact that they don't support our values at all. You must have been pretty happy to see Keith Martin leave - the only right-winger I've ever known with real principles. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
punked Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 No, I expect your head to explode Nope not my head. I just good with the facts, year in the black/Years governed. The NDP comes out on top in terms of balanced budgets. Conservatives are just all talk about balanced budgets that much is clear from the way they govern. Quote
Evening Star Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 The left-wing bias of the media rears its ugly head again. Oh wait... Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 10, 2012 Report Posted March 10, 2012 You must have been pretty happy to see Keith Martin leave - the only right-winger I've ever known with real principles. Keith Martin was a rightwinger? You have so many unfounded assumptions in that premise! Was Reform truly a rightwing party? Was Martin himself a rightwinger? The man was a doctor! I have never met a rightwing doctor in my life! I never believed Reform to be rightwing. They were populist and practical. In many ways they seemed to me to be a closer match in many ways to classic liberalism, which is why they appealed to me in the first place. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
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