Caterpillar to close London, Ont. locomotive plant

eyeball · February 5, 2012

People and unions should be going on general strike to demand lower wages and pensions for CEO's, MP's, MLA's and a guaranteed living wage or income for a percentage of the population for whom no work will likely ever exist again, notwithstanding crime.

Remember, welfare is not only for the benefit of the poor, it's what maintains the now thinning layer of civility that protects the rich.

Edited February 5, 2012 by eyeball

bush_cheney2004 · February 5, 2012

People and unions should be going on general strike to demand lower wages and pensions for CEO's, MP's, MLA's and a guaranteed living wage or income for a percentage of the population for whom no work will likely ever exist again, notwithstanding crime.

OK...go for it. The commies tried that, and failed miserably. Why should I work if there is a guaranteed minimum income? What will sustain the revenues to pay for this idea?

Remember, welfare is not only for the benefit of the poor, it's what maintains the now thinning layer of civility that protects the rich.

Threat noted....France has already experienced that and the rich still prevail.

eyeball · February 5, 2012

OK...go for it. The commies tried that, and failed miserably.

Really, China seems to be booming these days and capitalists can't knock us over fast enough in their haste to get a piece of the action.

Why should I work if there is a guaranteed minimum income?

So you can make more.

What will sustain the revenues to pay for this idea?

People who want to make more.

Threat noted....France has already experienced that and the rich still prevail.

Yep, like most things economic they usually come in cycles. It's the circle of life as you've said yourself.

Edited February 5, 2012 by eyeball

bush_cheney2004 · February 5, 2012

Really, China seems to be booming these days and capitalists can't knock us over fast enough in their haste to get a piece of the action.

Have you ever been to China? There is no guaranteed income.

So you can make more.

But this is antithetical to your initial premise. I won't need or want to make more if guaranteed a sustainable minimum.

People who want to make more.

What if they don't want to make "more"?

Yep, like most things economic they usually come in cycles. It's the circle of life as you've said yourself.

Correct, and I like the circle just as it is.

waldo · February 5, 2012

that "American First" policy talking point is also false... there is no requires element, nothing forcing the policy on Caterpillar... it is to Cat's advantage to do so, but there is no requirement. It's simply another example that shows the corporate greed element at play.
That's right....it is CAT's prerogative...they are very profitable right now and got that way by kicking union ass in "the states" too. Why the hell would it be any different in Canada?

the why it should be any different in Canada has to do with the nature of wanting to do business in Canada, hey? Apparently, in your corporate lackey role, you have no qualms in General Electric initially building the London plant to offset/counter the Canadian import tariff costs it was subject to in selling locomotives in Canada. Your corporate lackey role has you quite comfortable with GE feeding from the ICA trough..... do you get a chubby when talking of kicking union ass?

Topaz · February 5, 2012

I've been told that CAT was the last of locomotion plants in Canada, so if that is so, why doesn't the private sector, with all the tax rights offs and reduces taxes, reopen that plant, with the experience workers and make Canadian- made?? In the 1950's Ontario made everything, then it started to leave, well, its time to bring manufacturing back to Ontario and IF..IF we had the leadership in TO and OTTAWA, it could happen. The only jobs Ottawa seems to care about is in Alberta and the pipeline.

MiddleClassCentrist · February 6, 2012

I've been told that CAT was the last of locomotion plants in Canada, so if that is so, why doesn't the private sector, with all the tax rights offs and reduces taxes, reopen that plant, with the experience workers and make Canadian- made?? In the 1950's Ontario made everything, then it started to leave, well, its time to bring manufacturing back to Ontario and IF..IF we had the leadership in TO and OTTAWA, it could happen. The only jobs Ottawa seems to care about is in Alberta and the pipeline.

Corporations that are still in operation run under a scorched earth policy.

Gas stations dig up the fuel storage units to prevent competition from easily opening up when they close shop.

This plant will be shuttered and definately not sold to anyone who might compete.

Why would corporations want an innovative entrant stirring up competition?

bush_cheney2004 · February 6, 2012

..... do you get a chubby when talking of kicking union ass?

Do you get a "chubby" when you type "get a chubby"? Must be a Canadian thing, as the only chubby I am aware of is Chubby Checker, another fine American:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVQ0MXp-8ds

bush_cheney2004 · February 6, 2012

I've been told that CAT was the last of locomotion plants in Canada, so if that is so, why doesn't the private sector, with all the tax rights offs and reduces taxes, reopen that plant,

EMD was never a Canadian company. Grow your own...you know, like pot.

bush_cheney2004 · February 6, 2012

...This plant will be shuttered and definately not sold to anyone who might compete.

Why would corporations want an innovative entrant stirring up competition?

Agreed....and no more American job exported to Canada! So there!

Topaz · February 6, 2012

Do you get a "chubby" when you type "get a chubby"? Must be a Canadian thing, as the only chubby I am aware of is Chubby Checker, another fine American:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVQ0MXp-8ds

Thanks for the memories...but 30 million diabetic Americans NEED Chubby back!

Cameron · February 6, 2012

As per the STAR article, the $5 million was given to EMD BEFORE CAT bought the plant.

PIK · February 6, 2012

Wrong they will get EI and make more then they would have if they took salary cut, until they all find new jobs which pay more then Caterpillar was going to pay them. You only wish we lived in a system where if an employer decides to leave the employees starve.

I wish I made 16.50 a hr. Canadians have become to spoiled and lazy. And I don't think EI pays 16.50/hr. Many will see the errors in about 3 months. Now did this deal allow for raises in the future?

Wild Bill · February 6, 2012

My answer that Harris cancelled it because, I remember it being mentioned on the new back when Harris was Premier and it said he let the Auto Pact go and did not renew it. IF I'm wrong blame the news.

Well, I think you should share at least SOME of the blame, Topaz! You see, the Auto Pact was a federal agreement between Canada and the USA, NOT an agreement between Ontario and Uncle Sam.

So Harris COULDN'T have cancelled it! Only the Prime Minister of Canada could have done that! Surely our reporters in the news aren't that ignorant?

Now, the Prime Minister of Canada at the time was Jean Chretien. It only took a moment of googling to find all this out, even if I hadn't known this before.

You really should check your facts before you blame Harris. I know you hate him! Harper too! Still, those guys can't be responsible for EVERYTHING bad that happens, can they?

Perhaps if you were a little less hasty...

Edited February 6, 2012 by Wild Bill

punked · February 6, 2012

I wish I made 16.50 a hr. Canadians have become to spoiled and lazy. And I don't think EI pays 16.50/hr. Many will see the errors in about 3 months. Now did this deal allow for raises in the future?

They weren't going to keep the plant in Canada even if the workers took half pay PIK. They bought the manufacturer to get the contracts, and knowledge they have been waiting to shut this place down for a year. You are being crazy if you think they were going to keep this place open, they have a plant in Indiana where workers earn 28,000 a year they don't pay health-care and no pensions. These Canadians workers never stood a chance, yet Harper was all about this sale and the photo op.

bush_cheney2004 · February 6, 2012

CAT health care web site:

http://cathealthbenefits.cat.com/cda/layout?m=46924&x=7

waldo · February 6, 2012

Progress Rail Services website:

To demonstrate our commitment to an "engaged" workforce, Progress Rail Services provides superior Employee Benefits as part of the total compensation package. Progress Rail Services employees* enjoy the following:

.

* Employee Benefits eligibility may vary for Bargaining Unit members

TimG · February 7, 2012

they have a plant in Indiana where workers earn 28,000 a year they don't pay health-care and no pensions.

Can you provide any rational explaination for why CAT should have keep the plant open if labour is so much cheaper in the US? Companies are not charaties. They hire people to do a job and have no obligations to pay twice a much to do the same job out the the goodness of their hearts.

MiddleClassCentrist · February 7, 2012

double post.

Edited February 7, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

MiddleClassCentrist · February 7, 2012

Can you provide any rational explaination for why CAT should have keep the plant open if labour is so much cheaper in the US? Companies are not charaties. They hire people to do a job and have no obligations to pay twice a much to do the same job out the the goodness of their hearts.

They are still absorbing the cost of moving the operation AND were paying MORE at the plant in the states than they were offering Ontario labourers.

Just FYI

TimG · February 7, 2012

They are still absorbing the cost of moving the operation AND were paying MORE at the plant in the states than they were offering Ontario labourers.

The EMD plant would have needed new capital to keep it running so your comparison is meaningless unless you include those numbers. And even if the capital costs of moving - capital costs of keeping EMD open is positive the cost of moving is a one time event - wage rates are year after expenses.

dre · February 7, 2012

Heres ones possible approach....

Approximately 300 workers at the Harmac pulp mill in Nanaimo, British Columbia received their first dividend cheques last week.
The workers each invested $25,000 into Nanaimo Forest Products to become part-owners of the mill in 2008 when they purchased the mill from bankrupt Pope & Talbot.

The dividend cheques averaged approximately $2,000.

President of Nanaimo Forest Products, Levi Sampson, said the reduced costs and increases in production that have taken place since the unique ownership model took over the mill means Harmac has remained profitable even during the ongoing lean times in the global economy, and the company decided it was time the workers saw some return on their confidence in Harmac.

This pulp and paper mill was losing money and the owner was going to shut it down. The workers there invested their own money in buying a share of the mill and agreed to adjust their pay to make the operation profitable in order to find investors. Within a couple of years of the new agreement the mill has hired more workers and is turning a steady profit. A similar approach could be used in other situations to mitigate the adversarial relationship between labor and management and get them both on the same team.

If this plant has anything of value in it, its possible the government could expropriate the property/building/contents, sell it to willing investors and/or workers and pay the current owner fair market value as determined by the courts. This assumes of course that you having interested investors/laborers.

The government isnt out of pocket unless they decide the jobs and tax revenue are worth subsidizing. The previous owner is paid fair market value.

Edited February 7, 2012 by dre

bush_cheney2004 · February 7, 2012

Heres ones possible approach....

...The government isnt out of pocket unless they decide the jobs and tax revenue are worth subsidizing. The previous owner is paid fair market value.

The present owners are going to move all fixtures and tooling that it wants and liquidate the rest, including sale of the site for "fair market value" without any such gymnastics by the government or ex-workers. Any losses will be written off. Why should CAT entertain such a buyout plan in lieu of greater benefit to the bottom line?

The workers could have purchased the operation before...but didn't.

February 7, 2012

Caterpillar has been around for a long time.

The fact that it is so profitable in light of these "bloated wages" just goes to show that they aren't bloated at all.

But now, because of Caterpillar's stubbornness, we've lost 450 manufacturing jobs and all those tax breaks the corporation was granted are going to be used to fuel their business in the U.S. So, basically, the taxpayer gets screwed because corporate tax cuts had no influence whatsoever on Caterpillar's decision.

What tax breaks were given to " Corporation", aka manufacturing?

February 7, 2012

They weren't going to keep the plant in Canada even if the workers took half pay PIK. They bought the manufacturer to get the contracts, and knowledge they have been waiting to shut this place down for a year. You are being crazy if you think they were going to keep this place open, they have a plant in Indiana where workers earn 28,000 a year they don't pay health-care and no pensions. These Canadians workers never stood a chance, yet Harper was all about this sale and the photo op.

This was never a Canadian plant,& always owned by the parent USA companies.