eyeball Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 As far as I'm concerned, it's the coverage of these incidents and the reactions that we've seen here that are so damaging. It empowers the Taliban and al Qaeda and it's a great tactic on their part - they turn their enemy against each other. Makes their work so much easier. We should be presenting a united front... It's a little late in the day to be whining about how divided the west is. That flotilla sailed over the horizon years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Talk about post drift....this post has gone from what 4 US soldiers did to some dead taliban to lets bash the entire nation US of A... Frankly it's leaving me with a sour taste in my mouth....What a bunch of hypcrites you are, it must be nice to sit here in your glass towers and throw rocks down on our southern neibors just because we think we hold all the cards...That we are the keepers of western civilizations moral values that we as Canadians have the right to hold our noses up high, to snub our southern brothers and sisters is our right, our duty, it is how we confirm our god like moral standards..... The post started with what 4 US servicemen did to a dead taliban insurgent, it was confirmed what they did was wrong and they were going to be punished for it....The details are very vaugue at best, NO one knows exactly what happend or why they did it....Very few here have been in combat, and don't know what it is like to live in a constant enviroment that has gone insane....Sent there by your nation, sent there with the blessing of most of your countrymen....to do insane things....I'm not making excuses for what these 4 did, but actual combat will give you the largest natual high you've ever experienced....your adrineline is pumping at it's max....your brain is in survival mode....one second it's screaming runm, flee next second it refuses to move from fear...all this time your fighting with all your energy to push down your fear, which has your body trembling , hands shaking, speach is somewhat slurred, vision is narrowed, like tunnel vision, top that off with bullets whinning all over the place, explosions going off , people yelling orders, people screaming in fear, people screaming in pain.....it is total confusion or so it seems for the first time....finally you get control over your emotions , you convince your brain your going to move, shoot, and destroy the enemy.... you jump out from your cover, spot an enemy only 25 meters away, pull your trigger out of instinct and watch the back of his head explode painting the back of a mud wall....you enter the closets mud hut under heavy enemy fire....you've seen 3 comrads go down in great balls of pain.... you push on clear the first floor of enemy with 3 other soldiers, together you've killed 4 insurgents (later you'll find out one of them was only about 8 or 9 years old....you climb the stair well to the second floor...on the stairs is what looks like a dead taliban soldier on the way by you notice he's got serveral exit wounds on his back....as you and your 2 comrads run up past him he stands up, places his rifle to the back of the head of your comrad and fires....he's thrown into me....you turn around he's to close to shoot with your rifle , you pull your pistol, pump 3 rounds into his forehead ....watch him tumble down the rest of the stairs....then turn and carry on with clearing the second floor....the rest of our Bn jioned the battle shortly afterwards....my sgt told us to eat some lunch because we we going to join the Bn in 15 mins... I eat my lunch in a bag next to the boy i'd just shot with my pistol....I was so jacked up with adriniline i could not hold my spoon still enough to put any food on it....nor did i notice his brains split on the floor..so i paced back and forth until we left that building.... everyone handles this stress differently, one guy sang stupid country western songs, he hated country western, other guys had pissed themselfs....another could not stop talking .....That was my first day in Operation Mudusa....it went on for 3 more weeks...all the battles run into each other....but everyone handled their stress differently... Not saying what they did was not wrong...but in combat they're is very little you can do that is wrong...i mean we are talking about killing after all....we are talking about sending kids into battle, were their entire day and night is doing nothing but killing or thinking about it....it consumes you...and in a very short period of time it is what you become.... Yes we have rules and laws...we need to follow, but sometimes what you become ,,,these rules and laws become some what faded....or minor in nature...So before we condemn these guys to death, we need to understand what was going on, what happened during their tour...that made them see a clearly defined law so easily broken....before we make judement we need to step in their shoes... We need to stop throwing rocks, and judging people, we need to consider all the facts, walk a few miles in their shoes....4 marines do not get to destroy the reputation and honour of their comrads, or thier past members that have served around the globe with honor and valor....No sir, it's going to take more than 4 marines...or 10 or 20 for that matter....to destroy the reputation of the entire Marine Corps...let alone the US Army.... They will police their own...you don't have to like the policies or their findings but these young soldiers will pay a price that is higher than you could imigine or understand.... Edited January 17, 2012 by Army Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiechickin Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Good post Army Guy, as I read this thread over the past couple of days I was thinking along your lines, but never having been there, I could not articulate my feelings. Thanks for putting this into a very real perspective, and thanks for serving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 No. I'm pretty sure I can judge someone for pissing on human corpses without having to step in their shoes. It's disgusting and shameful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiechickin Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 No. I'm pretty sure I can judge someone for pissing on human corpses without having to step in their shoes. It's disgusting and shameful. Yes you seem to have no problem passing judgement on others regardless of whether or not you have any experience in the relevent field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yes you seem to have no problem passing judgement on others regardless of whether or not you have any experience in the relevent field. well hey now, neither do any of MLWs keyboard warriors, hey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiechickin Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 True that, but I can't help contrast the everyday experience of those Americans on the ground in Afganistan with their critics sitting safe and warm behind a keyboard somewhere in the wilds of Toronto. Army Guy sounds like he's seen enough to pass judgement either way, cybercoma not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 winning hearts & minds... one 'whizz' at a time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huh Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Since you're all about the logical errors, the conclusions you've drawn in your post is called argument from silence. You, American Woman, and bush_cheney2004 would be well served to learn that one. I think you might want to look up 'argument from silence' and read it a bit closer this time, that goes for everyone else too, if Im wrong OK, but that still doesn't seem to make your belief that urinating on a corpse is a horrible crime, disrespectful no doubt. Im sure they will be punished accordingly, but that act is in no way worthy of statements like "Way to stoop to the level of those you condemn" your words, when you consider acts of the Taliban, it's just that simple. Isn't it terrible that some people look at the world in a logical way, it really doesn't fit well with your view points, i wonder why that might be. In any case, you can misapply any descriptor you like, I will just call your arguments no argument at all. I think if you could do more than argue about the method of arguments (albeit wrongly imo) of other posters, you would. It really bothers you doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huh Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 winning hearts & minds... one 'whizz' at a time! I agree, it was a stupid thing to do, the reality is that this only puts those soldiers in more danger. War is hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiechickin Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 winning hearts & minds... one 'whizz' at a time! My girlfriend and I fight over this term all the time. She's studied insurgencies and thinks this is the key to the successful outcome of any military undertaking. I haven't studied war in any detail, but I think its just a trite phrase that only obscures the mission, which is to defeat the enemy. Nobody worried about the hearts and minds of Germans as the Allies rolled over them in 1945. Nobody cared about the hearts and minds of the Japanese in '45, we nuked 'em and put and end to the madness. And while she would argue that these were straight-up military battles rather than insurgencies, I saw a two hour American Experience documentary on Custer last night that I thought made my point. The American Indian wars were basically insurgencies and nobody cared about the hearts and minds of the Native Americans, they were attacked and attacked until they gave up. Seems to me this hearts and minds thing grew out of the war in Vietnam, and look how that worked out. I still think its a waste of time and resources to try and win over the resident population in any war, and Afganistan is just another example. Maybe someone that has been there can tell me different, but I think if you want to win a war treat all the locals as enemies. This doesn't mean you abuse them, just don't waste time trying to be their friends. Get in, crush any resistance mercilessly, and only when they are beaten to the point that resistence is futile do you give them a hand rebuilding. This is, of course, impossible in Afganistan as the insurgents keep pouring over the border from Pakistan like cockroaches, and as long as Pakistan remains a duplicitous 'ally', that border can never be closed. I'm glad we're out of there, and the Americans would be well advised to cut and run ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Seems to me this hearts and minds thing grew out of the war in Vietnam, and look how that worked out. I still think its a waste of time and resources to try and win over the resident population in any war, and Afganistan is just another example. Maybe someone that has been there can tell me different, but I think if you want to win a war treat all the locals as enemies. This doesn't mean you abuse them, just don't waste time trying to be their friends. Get in, crush any resistance mercilessly, and only when they are beaten to the point that resistence is futile do you give them a hand rebuilding. This is, of course, impossible in Afganistan as the insurgents keep pouring over the border from Pakistan like cockroaches, and as long as Pakistan remains a duplicitous 'ally', that border can never be closed. I'm glad we're out of there, and the Americans would be well advised to cut and run ASAP. You've put your finger on a key difference in thinking between those on either side of such issues. Who the hell cares about "winning the hearts and minds" of the enemy? You fight someone because he has wronged you or appears to be a danger to you. Your goal is to prevent further wrongs or negate the danger. Winning their hearts and minds is a nice warm and fuzzy bonus but if you have to choose only one outcome hearts and minds would NOT be it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yes you seem to have no problem passing judgement on others regardless of whether or not you have any experience in the relevent field. Well, I guess we can all just stfu about murderers, rapists, gang members, drug dealers, and child molesters too because we don't "have any experience in the relevent [sic] field." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 You've put your finger on a key difference in thinking between those on either side of such issues. Who the hell cares about "winning the hearts and minds" of the enemy? You fight someone because he has wronged you or appears to be a danger to you. Your goal is to prevent further wrongs or negate the danger. Winning their hearts and minds is a nice warm and fuzzy bonus but if you have to choose only one outcome hearts and minds would NOT be it! How do you defeat "terrorism"? Can "terrorism" give up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) No. I'm pretty sure I can judge someone for pissing on human corpses without having to step in their shoes. It's disgusting and shameful. Passing judgement on the act - which has been acknowledged as disgusting and shameful - and passing judgement on the person, nevermind the entire U.S. military, are two very different things. Recognizing the act as disguting and shameful and putting it on the same moral ground as beheading an innocent man are also two very different things - with the latter being off the wall. I wonder if Canada were attacked who you would rather have on your side - the U.S. military, or the Taliban. Edited January 18, 2012 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 You've put your finger on a key difference in thinking between those on either side of such issues. Who the hell cares about "winning the hearts and minds" of the enemy? are... "the people"... the enemy? These types of instances are simply grand propaganda tools, particularly as used to target a populace that, on a most generalized level, is not "worldly" and not particularly discriminating... beyond simply having basic life sustenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 are... "the people"... the enemy? These types of instances are simply grand propaganda tools, particularly as used to target a populace that, on a most generalized level, is not "worldly" and not particularly discriminating... beyond simply having basic life sustenance. Why, how superior and condescending of you to generalize in such a way. Would you prefer that the enemy were more "sophisticated" and contributing more to "global warming"? If the previous "enemy" included Germans, Italians, Japanese, or North Koreans, then it can damn well include the Taliban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 How do you defeat "terrorism"? Can "terrorism" give up? You cannot fight an uncentralized ideology with guns, bombs, tanks, carriers and fighter aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Why, how superior and condescending of you to generalize in such a way. Would you prefer that the enemy were more "sophisticated" and contributing more to "global warming"? If the previous "enemy" included Germans, Italians, Japanese, or North Koreans, then it can damn well include the Taliban. Superior and condescending, that's a good one coming from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Why, how superior and condescending of you to generalize in such a way. Would you prefer that the enemy were more "sophisticated" and contributing more to "global warming"? If the previous "enemy" included Germans, Italians, Japanese, or North Koreans, then it can damn well include the Taliban. no - you've misread... try again, hey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 You cannot fight an uncentralized ideology with guns, bombs, tanks, carriers and fighter aircraft. What like Nazism? Sure you can't defeat ideas but you can kill the people that believe those ideas. Or at least cripple their ability to attack again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 ....I wonder if Canada were attacked who you would rather have on your side - the U.S. military, or the Taliban. Perhaps we will never know....Canada only attacks other countries! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) What like Nazism? The Nazi's wore uniforms. The Nazi movement became government. The Nazis let everyone else know who they were and what they were about. They were identifiable on the battlefield. You KNEW who the enemy was. The terrorists in which the west is trying to fight has none of those markers like the Nazis. Instead of one country in which the enemy came from, you have them in multiple countries, and in many cases uncontrollable by the country they are operating in. Al-Queda operates in 20 or more countries. How do you expect to fight that? And Al-Queda is always on the move. How do you expect to fight that? IN this case you have no real idea who the enemy actually is. Sure you can't defeat ideas but you can kill the people that believe those ideas. Or at least cripple their ability to attack again. Terrorism is like other crimes. The criminals are always a step ahead of the law enforcement, and the crimes keep happening. The laws and restrictions in place to catch terrorists only end up making life miserable for the citizens of the country that the anti-terror laws exist. And to note, Nazism as an ideology still exists today. Edited January 18, 2012 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Passing judgement on the act - which has been acknowledged as disgusting and shameful - and passing judgement on the person, nevermind the entire U.S. military, are two very different things. Recognizing the act as disguting and shameful and putting it on the same moral ground as beheading an innocent man are also two very different things - with the latter being off the wall. I wonder if Canada were attacked who you would rather have on your side - the U.S. military, or the Taliban. How about recognizing the fact that the US military has repeatedly over the last 10 years committed disgusting acts of this calibre, resulting in at least one commission (Abu Ghraib) indicating that there is a systemic cultural deficiency in the military? Not everyone is as myopic as those that demand this incident needs to be isolated from all the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 And to note, Nazism as an ideology still exists today. And Fundamentalist Islam won't be stopped either. But the invasion of Afganistan certainly crippled Al-Queda's ability to organize and plan attacks on a large scale. Sure it may still happen but considering the death of Osama bin Laden recently the US Military is clearly doing a decent intelligence job in keeping the who's who of Al-Queda on the run and away from planning large scale attacks. The main threat of Fundamentalist Islam is from home-grown terrorists like the one's the perpetrated the London bombing. So more needs to be done at home to teach first generation Canadians from Muslim countries that Fundamentalist Islam is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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