Protest against the LCBO -- Liquor Control Board of Ontario

Boges · February 19, 2016

So, is there or isn't there a relationship between quality and morality?

Are you saying avoiding paying taxes on a controlled substance is immoral?

overthere · February 19, 2016

It's funny, when I contend that a model like this will make legalized cannabis unprofitable because there's already enough people that make it themselves, I'm told people can just as easily make wine and beer themselves as well.

I can't imagine that it's of any quality if people are willing to spend $15 or more for a bottle of wine.

Tastes are all subjective. At least with weed, quality isn't about the consumption but how it effects you afterwards.

Booze and weed are not really comparable though. Lots of people make their own beer and wine, but in reality it is mostly crap. The best I have ever had might be at the level of 'drinkable' It is hard to make quality bevvies at home.

It is far easier to grow world class weed though, if you have access to the right seeds.

This is a game where the govt really has its work cut out for them, and I don't see any way they can actually decriminalize it, get into the business at any level, and make any significant money. Or any money.

Boges · February 19, 2016

This is a game where the govt really has its work cut out for them, and I don't see any way they can actually decriminalize it, get into the business at any level, and make any significant money. Or any money.

They can if they allow people to bring "their" weed to market legally without oodles of red tape. For example this venture to allowing Beer and Wine in Grocery stores requires retailers bid for the right to sell Beer and Wine. They also would have to pay annual fees to the government.

It would be hypocritical for a government to allow legal weed to be sold privately without the same type of taxation we see on tobacco and alcohol. I'm sure many think that they should because weed is so much safer, but brewers and distillers in this province would probably freak out.

The Colorado model for selling cannabis is far more open and cheaper than anything we could expect in Canada.

eyeball · February 19, 2016

Are you saying avoiding paying taxes on a controlled substance is immoral?

No, I'm asking if there's a relationship between quality and morality. Cheap booze appears to be as immoral as quality pot. It appears the state is afraid that allowing either of these sends some kind of message.

eyeball · February 19, 2016

They can if they allow people to bring "their" weed to market legally without oodles of red tape.

What if they're not interested in selling it though? Will the sales taxes they pay on the inputs they buy be enough to keep Nanny happy or will she insist on applying some sort of sin tax because of what it does to you or keeping quality low because of the same fear?

Of course it bears mentioning the state will happily sell you all the booze you need to kill yourself with no qualms whatsoever.

Edited February 19, 2016 by eyeball

overthere · February 19, 2016

They can if they allow people to bring "their" weed to market legally without oodles of red tape. For example this venture to allowing Beer and Wine in Grocery stores requires retailers bid for the right to sell Beer and Wine. They also would have to pay annual fees to the government.

It would be hypocritical for a government to allow legal weed to be sold privately without the same type of taxation we see on tobacco and alcohol. I'm sure many think that they should because weed is so much safer, but brewers and distillers in this province would probably freak out.

The Colorado model for selling cannabis is far more open and cheaper than anything we could expect in Canada.

If they brought it to market in ON, they'd have an automatic tax of what is it- 14% HST? That does not exist today. And there is no way on earth that the feds and province would not tack on sin taxes. And your comment on retailers bidding adds to my argument. Weed sellers now don't have to pay anything to get their product to market, other than production and distribution costs.

It isn't that the govt would 'allow' no tax to be paid, it is the collecting that is problematic. Not just the actual collection, but the optics of a legal product now being pursued in the streets and courts to levy fines? What then was the point of legalization, if the govt must invest money again on enforcement?

overthere · February 19, 2016

What if they're not interested in selling it though? Will the sales taxes they pay on the inputs they buy be enough to keep Nanny happy or will she insist on applying some sort of sin tax because of what it does to you or keeping quality low because of the same fear?

Of course it bears mentioning the state will happily sell you all the booze you need to kill yourself with no qualms whatsoever.

I really doubt the feds will get involved in selling it, they will be happy with taxing it and leaving all the headaches to the provinces.

Nanny won't be able to resist taxing at any and every level of govt, and there lies the problem: every expense and tax they load onto the approved product makes it less comeptetive with the private stock.

eyeball · February 20, 2016

What then was the point of legalization, if the govt must invest money again on enforcement?

I realize it's a little gauche for a lefty to point it out but originally it was to get the state off our backs.

eyeball · February 20, 2016

I really doubt the feds will get involved in selling it, they will be happy with taxing it and leaving all the headaches to the provinces.

Nanny won't be able to resist taxing at any and every level of govt, and there lies the problem: every expense and tax they load onto the approved product makes it less comeptetive with the private stock.

Meaning they have to criminalize it...again.

taxme · February 20, 2016

We've had this debate before. The LCBO has a monopoly on selling liqour in Ontario so they can charge whatever the Hell they want. They even have minimum prices just to make sure no one can get an exceptionally good deal on boo's.

But if that's the case and they have a captive market and they're one of the largest purchasers of alcohol in the world. At least maybe you could get a bulk discount or something.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1097173--lcbo-prices-higher-than-they-should-be-a-g?bn=1

If you're going to rip people off to maximize profits, at least do it properly you idiots. It's a wonder why people hate government organizations.

All they need to do is go to a COSTCO to see how this stuff works.

Well, if you think Ontario is bad, try BC. No matter how hard they try to ease the archaic restrictions on the selling of booze outside government stores they still cannot get it right. Some big grocery outlets like Safeway and Superstore are allowed to now sell beer and wine in their stores. The problem is that in order to keep the kiddies from walking past a bottle of beer or wine on a shelf the government has decided that to sell booze in a store there must be a store within a store where kiddies cannot enter who maybe would want to buy a case of beer. Ha-ha. Can't have the kids influenced by seeing booze. So, how does a guy with two kids with him in a grocery store suppose to buy a bottle of wine if the kids are not allowed inside that booze store? Does he leave them alone outside the store within a store, and hopes that they are still there when he comes out? Or does he just screw it? The government thinks that this is just dandy but giving no thought to the fact that at home these kids will end up seeing their parents drink booze in front of them anyway. Politicians and how they think really baffles me.

What is refreshing to see is that anytime I go down to Washington State, I see booze sold everywhere, even in gas stations, and it's all at half the price of what it is in Canada. And kids walk past all this booze all the time. And I am pretty sure that them seeing the booze in front of them is not going to make them want to take up drinking as soon as possible. Exposing them to booze is better than trying to hide it from them.

overthere · February 20, 2016

I realize it's a little gauche for a lefty to point it out but originally it was to get the state off our backs.

Around here, the cops mostly don't give a s**t about people smoking weed, and haven't for a long time.

If the state gets involved in grpowing, selling, taxing and enforcing a state monopoly on the drug- they will be climbing back on heavily. They will have to.

Boges · February 22, 2016

Around here, the cops mostly don't give a s**t about people smoking weed, and haven't for a long time.

If the state gets involved in grpowing, selling, taxing and enforcing a state monopoly on the drug- they will be climbing back on heavily. They will have to.

It'll be interesting if the people who are begging for legal weed will support prosecution for avoiding paying proper taxes for said weed once it's "legalized".

Ash74 · February 22, 2016

Weed will not be the cash windfall that some expect.

It will have to be cheaper and better compared to what is sold on the street.

No easy task when you combine government bureaucracy into the mix

eyeball · February 23, 2016

It'll be interesting if the people who are begging for legal weed will support prosecution for avoiding paying proper taxes for said weed once it's "legalized".

To the fullest extent of the law once their government issued licences/quotas are worth millions of dollars - the second they're issued in other words.

Owners of opportunities like these are usually the greediest most jealous people on the planet.

Edited February 23, 2016 by eyeball

eyeball · February 23, 2016

Weed will not be the cash windfall that some expect.

It will have to be cheaper and better compared to what is sold on the street.

No easy task when you combine government bureaucracy into the mix

It's clearly conservative morality and liberal fear of appearing soft on morality that will screw things up most.

If we thought our alcoholic Nannies were insufferable idiots just wait until the zoned-out zombies at the MCB come to town.

Edited February 23, 2016 by eyeball

overthere · February 23, 2016

It's clearly conservative morality and liberal fear of appearing soft on morality that will screw things up most.

If we thought our alcoholic Nannies were insufferable idiots just wait until the zoned-out zombies at the MCB come to town.

BUT HARPER!!!

I reckon it will be the usual inability of bureaucracies at all levels to not tax and 'manage' this sucker into irrelevance that will doom the govt weed tsunami.

eyeball · February 23, 2016

BUT but but, every other Liberal PM too since the LeDain Commission.

I definitely think Liberal cowardice and terror at appearing soft is by far the bigger and worst contributor to the perpetuation of the WOD here and abroad.

The thing that really makes it all so jaw-droppingly stupid is the nearly non-stop conservative efforts to relax rules around booze.

Again, the Liberals can be counted on to be afraid of appearing soft, this time about being seen as getting on people's backs.

Preserving the right is actually easier when Liberals are in power.

Boges · October 28, 2016

Another meaningless gesture from the Ontario government made official today.

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2016/10/28/ontario-grocery-stores-begin-selling-wine-today.html

Quote

Shoppers can now grab some wine to go with dinner as Canadian and imported bottles hit the shelves at 67 supermarkets across Ontario.

Finance Minister Charles Sousa made the trek Friday to Coppa’s Fresh Market on Dufferin near Finch to cut the ribbon on the government’s latest move to ease restrictions on the sale of beer, wine and cider.

“With one stop, consumers can pick up wine along with other grocery items,” he said, standing in front of a section of Ontario-made VQA red wines at the family-owned store.

“We’re trying to expand convenience and choice,” Sousa added as York Centre MPP Monte Kwinter, who is recovering from an illness, sat in a wheelchair beside him.

It's meaningless if you can't get the product for cheaper than at the LCBO. And if they're not allowing for sales at corner stores, chances are somewhat slim that there's one of these locations closer than an LCBO to make it more convenient.

They also have the same hours as an LCBO, so you can't even get a bottle on Sunday evening if you wanted to.

I hate the LCBO so much.

The_Squid · October 28, 2016

I find it very strange that a grocery store has to sell beer/wine at particular hours only.

I was in the States a while back and went to buy a bottle of wine at a grocery store. I missed the sign that said "no liquor sales on Sundays". That was strange. I guess the county or city had a law that forbade liquor sales on Sundays. The clerk felt bad...

Edited October 28, 2016 by The_Squid

Boges · October 28, 2016

Gotta maintain the LCBO's competitive advantage. They can sell wine and beer for cheaper, so there's no real benefit to shopping at a grocery score for beer or wine beyond the convenience of buying it with food.

I did buy a beer at a Grocery store while buying chips to go to a party. You had to go to specific checkout lines with cashiers that were "trained". Otherwise it was seamless, and the prices weren't awful, but then I looked at my receipt. HST was tacked onto the beer like it was a prepared meal or snack food. Food is usually tax-free. So either they're doubling up on the HST (because at the LCBO the sale price has taxes built) or the grocery stores are forced to sell the beer at the higher price.

The_Squid · October 28, 2016

2 hours ago, Boges said:

... but then I looked at my receipt. HST was tacked onto the beer like it was a prepared meal or snack food. Food is usually tax-free. So either they're doubling up on the HST (because at the LCBO the sale price has taxes built) or the grocery stores are forced to sell the beer at the higher price.

Beer isn't HST exempt.

Also, why would you think they were forced to sell it at a higher price? I think grocery stores would choose to charge more because people may be willing to pay a couple bucks extra for the convenience.

Ash74 · October 28, 2016

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Gotta maintain the LCBO's competitive advantage. They can sell wine and beer for cheaper, so there's no real benefit to shopping at a grocery score for beer or wine beyond the convenience of buying it with food.

I did buy a beer at a Grocery store while buying chips to go to a party. You had to go to specific checkout lines with cashiers that were "trained". Otherwise it was seamless, and the prices weren't awful, but then I looked at my receipt. HST was tacked onto the beer like it was a prepared meal or snack food. Food is usually tax-free. So either they're doubling up on the HST (because at the LCBO the sale price has taxes built) or the grocery stores are forced to sell the beer at the higher price.

From what I have seen the grocery stores are advertising it at the price before the HST. It looks cheaper at the grocery store but is the same price.

The Beer Store still supplies the grocery stores but the stores have to order the beer a week or two in advance.

With the logistics of The Beer Store there is no way this is not done on purpose.

Rue · October 29, 2016

I support the LCBO. They are very knowledgeable about the products they sell and are a great help if you want to serve safely at a wedding or event.

They do active marketing all the time to see where their stores are needed. They don't sell to underage teens and they are a good way to intercept sales to alcoholics.

They do not rip us off on prices. Now I am not sure if we need a special store for Beer. I also coming from Quebec don't see the big deal selling Canadian wines or alcohol products at grocery stores but believe we should limit such sales to Canadian products to give them a help.

That's just my opinion. Some people automatically get upset if they think the government is involved. I don't want too much government but I think the LCBO does a god job controlling a dangerous and toxic substance as best it can.

Our province makes tax from sin, i.e., alcohol, gambling. Its only a matter of time until it does the same with marijhuana and sex.

I think there should be a sex control board for prostitution requiring licenses that would be dependent on age and disease status with tax money from that going to the medical system and programs to get kids off the street, etc. I think regulating booze and dope is crucial in raising tax to pay for the costs to society of the car accidents and care of diseases such as heart disease and cancer caused by these products. It makes sense to have dope dispended at the Liquor Board. The apparatus is all their.

I can tell you this. Once dope is regulated, like cigarettes a new black market will start because taxes on the price of legal dope like on cigarettes will make it attractive to by the dope from bootleggers, smugglers and on reservations like tobacco and alcohol.

Boges · October 30, 2016

So you think it's okay for Beer and wine to be sold in corner stores like in Que 7 but you support a horrific government Monopoly like the LCBO?

The last thing the LCBO wants is people to be free to buy beer and wine anywhere .

?Impact · October 31, 2016

Just to clarify, while you can buy beer and wine at grocery stores in Quebec they also have regulated hours. In general stores are open longer hours in Ontario than Quebec. There are a few grocery stores in Quebec with extended hours, but I have been in them and the beer section has been locked up. I'm not sure if the same restriction applies to wine. As far as I know the local dépanneur does not lock off the beer coolers, although many of them are closed by 10 or 11pm. The wine selection at any of the dépanneurs I have been in sucks.