Persecuted Christians In America!

[Guest American Woman]

Ummm. No. you didn't.

Because it contradicts what you've been declaring, so you haven't addressed it.

You made a remark earlier that you think people should address your actual words, that you write in your posts.

Maybe you might allow the same consideration for others.

Ummm. Yes I did.

What have I declared about you that's in contradiction to what you've posted?

[bleeding heart]

Ummm. Yes I did.

What have I declared about you that's in contradiction to what you've posted?

Your remark about catching a glimpse in a mirror is part of your ongoing complaint about my (along with some others here) believing in one truth, and then mocking others for the same.

If not, if I'm mistaken (meaning you retract your intiial accusation) maybe you could specifically explain what you meant?

[Guest American Woman]

Your remark about catching a glimpse in a mirror is part of your ongoing complaint about my (along with some others here) believing in one truth, and then mocking others for the same.

My comment about catching a glimpse in the mirror encompassed more than "believing in one truth."

[bleeding heart]

My comment about catching a glimpse in the mirror encompassed more than "believing in one truth."

And again:

"maybe you could specifically explain what you meant?"

Why not?

[kimmy]

As for the politicians... just two-- Deadbeat Newt and Brokeback Rick Perry-- used the exact words "war on religion".

I missed Mitt Romney, who has accused the Obama administration of waging an "assault" on religion. Indeed, portraying themselves as defenders of religious freedom appears to be part of the Republican game plan, as we saw at the partisan sausagefest that was Darrell Issa's Congressional Oversight Committee hearing called Lines Crossed: Separation of Church and State. Has the Obama administration trampled on Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Conscience? where Republican staffers stood behind the committee holding posters of Martin Luther King and Gandhi.

Why do I care? Because it seems emblematic of a political process that's going on in the US right now... get Christians riled up with the idea that their religious freedom is being taken away and channel their fear to your specific political goal. For example right now North Dakota has an amendment that is going to the polls soon called the "religious liberty" amendment or something similar. It's being sold to the voters as a way to protect religious freedom. Which sounds awesome, right? Because who could be against religious liberty?

Except religious liberty is already protected, and the amendment is going to open the door to a wide variety of new religious-based loopholes in laws that were intended to stop discrimination. And it will give religious institutions a way to access public money.

This amendment was defeated soundly, as North Dakotans apparently remembered that their religious freedom is already protected by the US Constitution.

-k

[kimmy]

And why do you care?

So I posted at great length explaining my choice of the word "persecuted", and pointing out which Christians in America are calling for the beating and killing of gays, and disputing the idea that Christians complaints about religious freedom are no different from atheists (and minority religions) complaining about religious freedoms, and explaining that the reason I care is that this fake victimhood concept is being turned into a push for unwarranted legal and political power.

You didn't respond and I don't know if that's because you didn't see the message or you didn't disagree with anything I wrote or if you're just done with this.

But I have a question for you: Why don't you care? I know you're no Republican... surely it doesn't sit well with you that Christian leaders are wading into politics in such a partisan way.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

So I posted at great length explaining my choice of the word "persecuted",

I realize that you explained your choice of word; that doesn't mean it's what they claim, ie: it doesn't meant that it's accurate. It just confirms what I've said - that it's your word, your feelings. It's how you've decided to present their complaints.

.... and pointing out which Christians in America are calling for the beating and killing of gays

Yet they're not "calling for" that; the pastor who said parents should "punch" their gay sons explained himself. I'm not defending him, although likely there will be those claiming I am, but I do feel it's important to see and present things for what they are. The pastor you claim is "calling for the killing of gays" was saying what he thinks should be done by the government, even as he says he realizes they won't do that. That is not "calling for" the killing of gays; it's simply stating his (repulsive) opinion.

It's the difference between 'saying something hateful' and "inciting hate" in Canada, re: your hate law. They are two very different things, and the distinction is an important one - in Canada it's the difference between breaking the law or not breaking the law.

Furthermore, you cited four pastors - of small congregations. This country has 300+ million people in it, most of them Christians. You think four pastors' opinions are representative in any way of "Christians in America?" Should I find a couple of Canadian fruitcakes - or one even, considering we have a single state with a higher population than Canada - and attribute it to "Canadians?"

...and disputing the idea that Christians complaints about religious freedom are no different from atheists (and minority religions) complaining about religious freedoms, and explaining that the reason I care is that this fake victimhood concept is being turned into a push for unwarranted legal and political power.

Yet the attitudes are no different. I've repeated that many times now. Are you still not getting that, or simply choosing not to address it? (But I have to wonder how what "Christians in America" are doing is affecting you in Canada - how it is "being turned into a push for unwarranted legal and political power.")

You didn't respond and I don't know if that's because you didn't see the message or you didn't disagree with anything I wrote or if you're just done with this.

Basically I'm done with this; when the comments turn ignorantly personal, I usually have no desire to invest more of my time with it.

But I have a question for you: Why don't you care? I know you're no Republican... surely it doesn't sit well with you that Christian leaders are wading into politics in such a partisan way.

Why don't I care that they are speaking their minds? Because in the U.S. we all have the freedom to speak our mind - and that includes the ignorant and ugly. To me, trying to silence them accomplishes nothing because the feelings are still there, simmering, and people are going to act on those feelings whether they state why they feel the way they do or not. To me that's a less desirable situation. I like to know where people are coming from - and if they are basing something on their religious beliefs, I like to know. It helps me decide how to vote.

Furthermore, 'putting it out there' generates responses. The four pastors that you spoke of (who don't represent any "faction" within American Christians, but rather are voicing their own moronic opinions) all generated response of the opposite viewpoint - along with demonstrations. What better way to deal with these people than strongly proclaim that they are wrong? Silencing them wouldn't do that. But the fact of the matter is, it's the reaction, the demonstrations, that really represent America.

I also realize as an American that candidates are going to try on some level to appeal to all the voting bases. In the U.S., politicians are more outspoken about such things. I've pointed out that Harper has toned down the religious rhetoric, but that doesn't mean he's doing anything differently as PM. Americans are more likely to say what's on their minds, imo, and since there are so many of us, sometimes that might come across as having more impact than it actually does - especially when one isn't as used to it within their own population and/or focuses on it, and blows it out of proportion.

We can all focus on something, finding every single example out there, and generally it will appear to be 'larger' than it really is; and that's why I see "you people" as the opposite side of the coin. Your reaction is as overblown as their's - and, as I have pointed out, their complaints not completely unfounded. There are different PC standards for Christians/Christianity than there are, for say, Muslims/Islam, and if you can't see that, it's because you're not looking. I happen to feel the best way to deal with that is to recognize it. But as it stands, both sides are simply blowing things out of proportion - them and those criticizing them.

And that's all I have to say on the topic. But again, my comments, my concern, is about attitude; people are going to always have their personal beliefs, and there are always going to be people with off-the-wall ignorant, repulsive viewpoints. There's nothing anyone can do to change that.

[kimmy]

I realize that you explained your choice of word; that doesn't mean it's what they claim, ie: it doesn't meant that it's accurate. It just confirms what I've said - that it's your word, your feelings. It's how you've decided to present their complaints.

They're telling us that politicians and judges are taking away their rights. They're telling us that the gays are the new KKK. They're saying the media is waging war against them and that schools and universities are oppressing them. There is not a better word in the whole english language to sum up what they are saying is being done to them than "persecution".

The Catholics are staging a big event called the "Fortnight For Freedom" right now because they want to tell you that they are being oppressed.

Yet they're not "calling for" that; the pastor who said parents should "punch" their gay sons explained himself. I'm not defending him, although likely there will be those claiming I am, but I do feel it's important to see and present things for what they are. The pastor you claim is "calling for the killing of gays" was saying what he thinks should be done by the government, even as he says he realizes they won't do that. That is not "calling for" the killing of gays; it's simply stating his (repulsive) opinion.

He said the government ought to execute gays. "Oh, so you're saying that we should go out and start killing them? No, I'm saying the government should. They won't, but they should." That's what he said. If that's not calling for the killing of gays, what on earth is it? And of course Sean Harris was "just joking". Everybody's "just joking" when they get caught saying something they wish they hadn't. Mitt Romney was "just joking" when he cut that kid's hair off, too. Those wacky jokesters, just having too much fun. Mississippi State Rep Andy Gipson totally didn't mean that people should literally kill gays when he said "Leviticus 20:13" in response to President Obama's support for gay marriage. ("They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.") Because it's not Andy that wants to kill gays. It's God.

The thing that's remarkable about these guys isn't that the hate, it's just the astoundingly bad judgment. Hate is pretty mainstream in Christianity. It's the reason churches keep

.

It's the difference between 'saying something hateful' and "inciting hate" in Canada, re: your hate law. They are two very different things, and the distinction is an important one - in Canada it's the difference between breaking the law or not breaking the law.

Furthermore, you cited four pastors - of small congregations. This country has 300+ million people in it, most of them Christians. You think four pastors' opinions are representative in any way of "Christians in America?" Should I find a couple of Canadian fruitcakes - or one even, considering we have a single state with a higher population than Canada - and attribute it to "Canadians?"

Four pastors, plus the congregations that cheered them on, plus the communities that rallied in support of them, plus other Christian leaders and congregations around the country, plus groups like American Family Association and One Million Moms, plus the politicians around the country who've gone to their legislatures to introduce legislation to make sure that Christians have the right to keep on hating...

Yet the attitudes are no different. I've repeated that many times now. Are you still not getting that, or simply choosing not to address it? (But I have to wonder how what "Christians in America" are doing is affecting you in Canada - how it is "being turned into a push for unwarranted legal and political power.")

I'm sure you're not asking why I care about events outside Canada's borders, because I seem to recall you post a great deal about events beyond America's.

As for the attitudes, I think that the fact that one side has legitimate issues to complain about while the other has laughable, fake issues to complain about makes your idea about "attitudes" pretty irrelevant. The fact that one side has small activist organizations and the ACLU standing up for it while the other has billions of dollars, lobbyists, and an entire political party at its disposal is also pretty significant.

Why don't I care that they are speaking their minds? Because in the U.S. we all have the freedom to speak our mind - and that includes the ignorant and ugly. To me, trying to silence them accomplishes nothing because the feelings are still there, simmering, and people are going to act on those feelings whether they state why they feel the way they do or not. To me that's a less desirable situation. I like to know where people are coming from - and if they are basing something on their religious beliefs, I like to know. It helps me decide how to vote.

You're probably well aware that refraining from partisan politics is a condition of the church's tax exempt status. You might not be aware that some churches are actively flouting this rule and daring the IRS to take action.

Have you considered that politicians don't just pander to religion when they're running for office, they do it after they're elected too?

As a Youpper, you probably recall the uproar over "Matt's Safe School Law" late last year, when Christian groups pressured Michigan Republicans into putting in "faith based exemptions" that would have made the proposed law worse than none at all; they backed down when a youtube video of Sen. Gretchen Whitmer's senate speech went viral and basically shamed them into dropping the exemptions.

Another winner of a law is on its way in your neck of the woods. "The Julea Ward Freedom of Conscience" act. It prevents public and state universities from flunking students who refuse to complete course material for religious reasons (Ward wants to be a counsellor, but she wouldn't provide counselling to people whose lifestyle choices were "unBiblical".)

What do you think, AW? Good law for Michigan?

Personally, I doubt it. I'm going to laugh my ass off when some would-be med student sues the school for flunking her when she wrote "6000 years", "Noah's Ark", and "God did it" on her microbiology exam.

Why did this law happen? It happened because religious people cried "persecution". Instead of "student refuses to complete the requirements of her degree program", the message the politicians went with was "Student persecuted for her religious beliefs!!!"

Of course, Christians want this sort of "exemption of conscience" for all kinds of employees, as long as they're Christian of course. A Catholic pharmacist shouldn't have to fill prescriptions for birth control pills! The people who think this sort of thing is a great idea would probably flip their shit if some Muslim cabbie told them they can't bring their new bottle of Scotch on his taxi.

And of course, "exemption of conscience" only applies to religious people. If a vegetarian animal-lover refused to help a guy who wanted a hunting license, do you think Christians will be fighting for her conscience? Of course not. Because her strongly-held beliefs come from her heart and her mind instead of from some book written by bronze-age idiots, so obviously her strongly-held beliefs just don't matter.

Furthermore, 'putting it out there' generates responses. The four pastors that you spoke of (who don't represent any "faction" within American Christians, but rather are voicing their own moronic opinions) all generated response of the opposite viewpoint - along with demonstrations. What better way to deal with these people than strongly proclaim that they are wrong? Silencing them wouldn't do that.

I've never once advocated for silencing them. I'm all for confronting stupidity with the ridicule and contempt it deserves, which is the whole idea behind this thread.

I think it's extremely unfortunate that many people seem to shy away from confronting religion. There seems to be an attitude that we must patiently tolerate their views because ... because they're religious. "Well, I completely disagree with everything he just said, but I must respect his religious views because otherwise I would be a bigot."

But the fact of the matter is, it's the reaction, the demonstrations, that really represent America.

The demonstration against Pastor Chuck represents America, and the congregations that cheered on his speech also represents America.

We can all focus on something, finding every single example out there, and generally it will appear to be 'larger' than it really is; and that's why I see "you people" as the opposite side of the coin. Your reaction is as overblown as their's - and, as I have pointed out, their complaints not completely unfounded. There are different PC standards for Christians/Christianity than there are, for say, Muslims/Islam, and if you can't see that, it's because you're not looking. I happen to feel the best way to deal with that is to recognize it. But as it stands, both sides are simply blowing things out of proportion - them and those criticizing them.

Unlike Muslims, or atheists, or any other minority religion, Christians have vast power and influence in America. And you can say "well yes but the attitude is the same" but what does attitude matter? Christians made your state legislature pass bad law. Muslims didn't. Atheists didn't.

-k

[cybercoma]

It's the reason churches keep

.

-k

I give up. There is no way to work towards a better world when this kind of vile, disgusting intolerance is not only allowed to exist, but is protected by the government and considered sacred to many.

[kimmy]

More startling persecution of Christians, this time in the form of colorful cookies.

My sources inform me that you can not-- repeat, not-- actually go to a store and buy Oreos with six layers of rainbow-colored stuffing. Which is probably for the best, because it would be messy to eat and probably disgustingly sweet. Nonetheless, One Million Moms are calling for a boycott and many Christians are declaring they will never eat another Oreo.

Big companies supporting gay pride has become something of a trend, and angry Christians are asking "why can't these corporations remain neutral in the culture wars?"

The irony is that the Christian complainers themselves are the ones who have made it happen. The advertisers know that these "moral majority" type Christians threatening these boycotts aren't actually a majority at all, they're a small minority of Christians, despite their claims. The advertisers know that the publicity they'll get from a confrontation with One Million Moms will make their advertising dollars go hundreds of times farther.

Think back a few months to "All American Muslim". A show that few people would have watched or even heard of, up until the "Florida Family Association", another Christian group, announced that they were boycotting Lowe's for sponsoring All American Muslim. Lowe's dropped their advertising, but that's when things got weird... because all of a sudden, everybody was talking about it. Suddenly, All American Muslim became a hot property for advertisers.

JC Penny hired Ellen Degeneres as their spokeswoman, and One Million Moms announced a boycott. Which ensured that JC Penny got a vast amount of free press... the kind that money just can't buy. They did the same again on Father's Day, showing a family with Two Dads and making the million moms go ballistic.

And now Oreo wants in. Why wouldn't they?

One Million Moms and American Family Association are pleading for corporations to "remain neutral in the culture war." And yet they've given these companies such powerful incentive to jump on the gay pride bandwagon. You'd think that OMM would stop shooting themselves in the foot, but it's clear that they're not content to stop at their feet, they're going to find other places to shoot themselves too.

-k

[cybercoma]

My wife was watching that stupid show 'The Glass House' last night and there was a Mormon on there claiming to be persecuted. First of all, she puts down this gay guy, saying that he shouldn't be able to get married and that she voted against gay marriage in her state. After he tells her that she's persecuting him by voting against his right to marry whomever her chooses, she goes into another room to be consoled by another Christian. They had a big crying fest about how THEY were being persecuted for their beliefs by the gay guy. This seems to sum up all the other examples Christian persecution that I see. When Christians can't persecute others, then they themselves are being persecuted. It's patently absurd.

[GostHacked]

My wife was watching that stupid show 'The Glass House' last night and there was a Mormon on there claiming to be persecuted. First of all, she puts down this gay guy, saying that he shouldn't be able to get married and that she voted against gay marriage in her state. After he tells her that she's persecuting him by voting against his right to marry whomever her chooses, she goes into another room to be consoled by another Christian. They had a big crying fest about how THEY were being persecuted for their beliefs by the gay guy. This seems to sum up all the other examples Christian persecution that I see. When Christians can't persecute others, then they themselves are being persecuted. It's patently absurd.

That is what I call social conditioning through media.

[kimmy]

Zach Kopplin is a Louisiana high-school student who has been campaigning to have the "Louisiana Science Education Act" (a misnomer if ever there was one) repealed.

Zach has done some research and confirmed that Louisiana taxpayers are going to spend at least $11.6 million to send at least 1365 students to schools that will teach them that the earth is 6000 years old and that a 900 year old desert dumbass really did cram 2 to 7 of ever species of animal on earth onto a wooden boat to save them from a global flood.

$8500 per student per year to learn bullshit. Is that really a good use of taxpayer money?

Zach also points out that Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, who buffaloed this program into law, is the Romney campaign's spokesman for educational reform.

If vouchers to send students to private schools to learn bullshit at a cost of $8500 a head each year is the kind of education reform that the Romney campaign is planning, I can only imagine how excited my American will be to see a Romney victory this November.

(Are people really still confused as to why I'm so disgusted by the influence of religion on politics? Really?)

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

....$8500 per student per year to learn bullshit. Is that really a good use of taxpayer money?

Well, I'm sure the "$8500" covers other mainstream topics and curriculum found in other schools.

How much does Ontario or Quebec blow teaching Catholic students how to kill baby seals?

[Shady]

Zach Kopplin is a Louisiana high-school student who has been campaigning to have the "Louisiana Science Education Act" (a misnomer if ever there was one) repealed.

Zach has done some research and confirmed that Louisiana taxpayers are going to spend at least $11.6 million to send at least 1365 students to schools that will teach them that the earth is 6000 years old and that a 900 year old desert dumbass really did cram 2 to 7 of ever species of animal on earth onto a wooden boat to save them from a global flood.

$8500 per student per year to learn bullshit. Is that really a good use of taxpayer money?

Zach also points out that Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, who buffaloed this program into law, is the Romney campaign's spokesman for educational reform.

If vouchers to send students to private schools to learn bullshit at a cost of $8500 a head each year is the kind of education reform that the Romney campaign is planning, I can only imagine how excited my American will be to see a Romney victory this November.

(Are people really still confused as to why I'm so disgusted by the influence of religion on politics? Really?)

-k

This is one of the most deranged posts of all-time. It's so full of misinformation and flat-out lies that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Keep up the good work kimmy. You'll eventually get that whale!

[Bonam]

This is one of the most deranged posts of all-time. It's so full of misinformation and flat-out lies that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Keep up the good work kimmy. You'll eventually get that whale!

How is it deranged?

[The_Squid]

This is one of the most deranged posts of all-time. It's so full of misinformation and flat-out lies that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Keep up the good work kimmy. You'll eventually get that whale!

If you call someone a liar, at least have the balls to tell us what part of their post is a lie.....

[The_Squid]

Well, I'm sure the "$8500" covers other mainstream topics and curriculum found in other schools.

How much does Ontario or Quebec blow teaching Catholic students how to kill baby seals?

They teach students how to kill seals?

[kimmy]

This is one of the most deranged posts of all-time.

I'm looking forward to hearing you explain how.

It's so full of misinformation and flat-out lies that it's almost impossible to know where to begin.

I'm sure you'll find somewhere. Please proceed. The floor is yours, Shady.

-k

[jbg]

This is one of the most deranged posts of all-time. It's so full of misinformation and flat-out lies that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Keep up the good work kimmy. You'll eventually get that whale!

why don't you educate me rather than just calling other posters names? You know I am no creationist and have not truck with it but maybe there's another side to the story. You're just not telling it.

[bush_cheney2004]

They teach students how to kill seals?

Yes...and since I don't believe in killing seals, it is quite backward.

[The_Squid]

Yes...and since I don't believe in killing seals, it is quite backward.

You sure this isn't just silly hyperbole?

[bush_cheney2004]

You sure this isn't just silly hyperbole?

Nope....Fun With Words....Die! Seals! Die!!!

....Christ the King Catholic Secondary School in Georgetown held a three-hour concert Thursday focused on educating students on commercial seal slaughter in Canada. They invited animal rights groups and a councillor from the Green Party.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/20/seal-hunt-advocates-protest-anti-seal-hunt-school-assembly

[Shakeyhands]

I'm looking forward to hearing you explain how.

I'm sure you'll find somewhere. Please proceed. The floor is yours, Shady.

-k

I'm sure it's just another hit and run by Shady. Please don't hold your breath kimmy...

Edited July 17, 2012 by Shakeyhands

[Shakeyhands]

Nope....Fun With Words....Die! Seals! Die!!!

....Christ the King Catholic Secondary School in Georgetown held a three-hour concert Thursday focused on educating students on commercial seal slaughter in Canada. They invited animal rights groups and a councillor from the Green Party.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/20/seal-hunt-advocates-protest-anti-seal-hunt-school-assembly

And proponents of the sealing industry, I guess it was too hard for you to read that much of the article? I can't imagine you'd leave that part out on purpose?