Persecuted Christians In America!

[jefferiah]

When you devalue human life the way his shirt does, it's not only offensive, but it's dangerous. That kind of thinking is what leads to some of the most horrific atrocities mankind has ever seen.

Yup, some of the worst atrocities in history are tshirt-based.

If the tshirt said 'Life Without Mohammed Is Wasted' or 'Life Without Hockey is Wasted' or whatever, you would think that is devaluing life? Seriously, man. You are over analyzing it. And at that point, no one can keep you from being offended.

I don't even buy that you are that offended over the shirt. If you are, it is more a problem with you over analyzing it, and that is your problem not the rest of the world's.

Edited May 6, 2012 by jefferiah

[Michael Hardner]

The point is that people who are going to school don't need to be constantly belittled by this overzealous Christian with his shirt that proclaims their lives are wasted if they don't believe in his God.

It's not that big of a deal, really. We shouldn't have to parse t-shirt meaning to this level of effort.

I don't need to sit in a classroom with that kind of distraction every single day if I'm there to learn. His shirt is insulting and it wouldn't be tolerated if it was equally insulting by way of anything other than religion. If he wore a shir that said "your life is worthless if you're a ginger," there is no way that would be allowed. Kids going to that school should be free from the insulting rhetoric that he advertises daily through his bright yellow t-shirt. That's freedom.

Not worth the effort IMO.

[cybercoma]

You don't even believe yourself. But really, you are right, we probably shouldn't wait until the tshirt raises to the level of traumatization. I mean today the tshirt is just expressing a religious message. Tomorrow the shirt might be selling drugs.

It's not even expressing a religious message. It's actually devaluing the lives of others, which isn't very Christian-like at all.

[cybercoma]

Yup, some of the worst atrocities in history are tshirt-based.

If the tshirt said 'Life Without Mohammed Is Wasted' or 'Life Without Hockey is Wasted' or whatever, you would think that is devaluing life? Seriously, man. You are over analyzing it. And at that point, no one can keep you from being offended.

I don't even buy that you are that offended over the shirt. If you are, it is more a problem with you over analyzing it, and that is your problem not the rest of the world's.

Yes. It's just a benign t-shirt. There's no message here whatsoever. Look at this text on the screen. Completely meaningless. It's just a computer screen you're staring at.

[Guest American Woman]

It's not even expressing a religious message. It's actually devaluing the lives of others, which isn't very Christian-like at all.

You're looking at it from your viewpoint, not from the viewpoint of a Christian who thinks he is helping others by getting the word out there. He thinks that if he can get non-believers to jump on the Jesus bandwagon (so to speak), their lives will be better and more meaningful; he truly believes this, so he thinks he is helping them by getting the message out there (and "helping" is "Christian-like").

[jefferiah]

It's not even expressing a religious message. It's actually devaluing the lives of others, which isn't very Christian-like at all.

Certainly not. The position of Christianity is that all people are hopeless sinners. And that salvation is only a matter of grace. In the Bible, Jesus stated the he was the only way to the truth. That all other religious figures are false prophets. Those are pretty definitive statements. So it is not un-Christian at all for a Christian to assert such things. You cannot be one thing and another.

Can you be an atheist and also a Muslim/Christian/Jew? Of course not?

In any case, I'll try to clarify my position here. I find it rather hard to take you seriously. I mean we are talking about a tshirt here. And you are throwing around terms like traumatization and dehumanization about being exposed to someone's t-shirt. Like seriously, don't you think maybe, just maybe, you are going a little overboard.

As far as religion goes, I know you do not subscribe to it. But if a Jehovah's witness or whatnot shows up at my door, or a Muslim tells me Allah is the only way, I do not find that dehumanizing. Nor is it traumatic.

Edited May 7, 2012 by jefferiah

[cybercoma]

You're looking at it from your viewpoint, not from the viewpoint of a Christian who thinks he is helping others by getting the word out there. He thinks that if he can get non-believers to jump on the Jesus bandwagon (so to speak), their lives will be better and more meaningful; he truly believes this, so he thinks he is helping them by getting the message out there (and "helping" is "Christian-like").

Oh I get it. But, really? You're not going to get anyone jumping on your bandwagon by telling them their life is crap without Jesus. Although, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a Christian would think guilting people into something is actually effective.

[jefferiah]

Oh I get it. But, really? You're not going to get anyone jumping on your bandwagon by telling them their life is crap without Jesus. Although, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a Christian would think guilting people into something is actually effective.

OK, now if you saw someone wearing a shirt which said 'Life is Wasted Without Allah', or 'Life is Wasted Without Hockey', would you really feel like you are being told your life is crap???

Seriously now?

[jefferiah]

Oh I get it. But, really? You're not going to get anyone jumping on your bandwagon by telling them their life is crap without Jesus. Although, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a Christian would think guilting people into something is actually effective.

Seems you are making a blanket statement about Christians here. Hmmmmm......

Should the Christians on this board feel traumatized and dehumanized?

Edited May 7, 2012 by jefferiah

[cybercoma]

Certainly not. The position of Christianity is that all people are hopeless sinners. And that salvation is only a matter of grace.

It depends on your brand of Christianity how that plays out. Calvinists are more inflexible, while Catholics don't believe salvation is predetermined at all.

In the Bible, Jesus stated the he was the only way to the truth. That all other religious figures are false prophets. Those are pretty definitive statements. So it is not un-Christian at all for a Christian to assert such things. You cannot be one thing and another.

His shirt didn't say "Jesus is the only way to the truth." He said people's lives are wasted.

In any case, I'll try to clarify my position here. I find it rather hard to take you seriously. I mean we are talking about a tshirt here. And you are throwing around terms like traumatization and dehumanization about being exposed to someone's t-shirt. Like seriously, don't you think maybe, just maybe, you are going a little overboard.

You're talking about a t-shirt. I'm talking about the message that a teenager thinks people's lives are a waste. That completely devalues others because they don't believe in the same faith system that he believes in. It's that devaluation of human lives that is repugnant. Even more repugnant than that hideous yellow shirt.

As far as religion goes, I know you do not subscribe to it. But if a Jehovah's witness or whatnot shows up at my door, or a Muslim tells me Allah is the only way, I do not find that dehumanizing. Nor is it traumatic.

I've already addressed this. His shirt did not say that Jesus is the only truth. Jesus is the only way. His shirt proclaimed that people's lives are wasted if they don't believe in the same faith as him. Frankly, he can keep that garbage to himself. It's people like him that would lose their mind if someone wore a shirt to school every day that said people have to believe in Muhammad or they're infidels. It's not about him praising Jesus or expressing his religion. It's about him putting down others for their beliefs.

[cybercoma]

Seems you are making a blanket statement about Christians here. Hmmmmm......

Should the Christians on this board feel traumatized and dehumanized?

The Christians on this board get pretty bent out of shape when the more vocal atheists tell them that they're wasting their lives with religion.

[jefferiah]

The Christians on this board get pretty bent out of shape when the more vocal atheists tell them that they're wasting their lives with religion.

Many people get bent out of shape over things like that.

Isn't it great that you can still say what you think despite people getting bent out of shape?

It doesn't bother me if you believe I am wasting my time and you can say so all you like. It is neither traumatizing nor is it dehumanizing.

And I think you are parsing the language too strictly here. As I have said, if someone wore a shirt to class which said 'Life is Wasted Without Allah', that is neither traumatizing nor dehumanizing. I would not even bother to extrapolate it to the level that this person is saying that I am a total waste. In fact, I would not even take it that way. Would it really affect you?

Edited May 7, 2012 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

deleted

Edited May 7, 2012 by jefferiah

[cybercoma]

The point is that this is in a school where speech and activities are already regulated. Free-speech in society at large is fine. However, when kids are required by law to go to school and they have to be subjected to offensive religious bigotry while they're there, something needs to be done to address it.

[Michael Hardner]

The Christians on this board get pretty bent out of shape when the more vocal atheists tell them that they're wasting their lives with religion.

I don't know about that. Who are the Christians on this board ? It seems to me that this is more a left/right thing. Rightists don't like the idea of anti-Christian prejudice but I don't think they're so Christian themselves.

[kimmy]

I don't know about that. Who are the Christians on this board ? It seems to me that this is more a left/right thing. Rightists don't like the idea of anti-Christian prejudice but I don't think they're so Christian themselves.

The only person who actually gets bent out of shape about "anti-Christian prejudice" on this board is Shady, and the truth is that he's not even a Christian. He only cares because it gives him a chance to parrot Fox News talking points.

If Betsy was still here, she might be the one Christian who'd get bent out of shape. But she was taken in the Rapture. Perhaps Harold Camping could put us in touch with her.

-k

[August1991]

Many people get bent out of shape over things like that.

Really?

The only person who actually gets bent out of shape about "anti-Christian prejudice" on this board is Shady, and the truth is that he's not even a Christian.

Likely.

----

Lately, I have wondered about cities. For example, do you know of 1920s Lviv, Danzig or Alexandria?

Pierre Trudeau certainly did, and we Canadians probably should too. More likely, we don't. And on such basis, we sadly imagine a future civilized society.

Edited May 8, 2012 by August1991

[kimmy]

I don't know about that. Who are the Christians on this board ? It seems to me that this is more a left/right thing. Rightists don't like the idea of anti-Christian prejudice but I don't think they're so Christian themselves.

The idea that "anti-Christian prejudice" is a left/right issue is largely a result of the "religious right" being heavily invested in the Republican Party.

-k

[jefferiah]

Really?

Likely.

I was simply agreeing wih Cybercoma that many Christians do get bent out of shape with analogous things. You don't think so? But I don't think it's relevant. Let them get bent out of shape over an atheist t-shirt if they want, but don't suspend a person for wearing it.

Edited May 8, 2012 by jefferiah

[kimmy]

They don't have to be considered ministers....just employees of a religious organization that is exempt from Title VII for faith based discrimination except in the case of race, gender, or national origin.

No it's not, as the FBIO exists as a political counterbalance to welfare reform. Many non-profits get such grants.

If by "a counterbalance to welfare reform", you mean "a chance for politicians to kiss religious sphincter while maintaining the 'Private Citizens always do it better than government employees' mantra", then yes, I agree.

However, the FBIO (or OFBI&CI as it's now known) can't provide funds to organizations that discriminate in providing services. As with the Boy Scouts of America: you can choose to accept government funds and not discriminate, or you can reject government funds if you wish to maintain discriminatory policies. But you can't accept government funds while maintaining discriminatory policies. Which is why (for instance) you'll find that Catholic Charities in Massachusetts are begrudgingly providing adoption services for gay couples. Because despite what you're selling, Dick, holding the reigns on 63% of Catholic Charities' budget *is* a big stick.

To put this in human terms, a few months back I read about an Oklahoma couple who were trying to adopt. Every adoption agency in the state happened to be Christian-run and every adoption agency happened to place regular Christian church attendance high on their list of priorities in determining whether a prospective couple were good candidates for an adoption. Now, there had better not be federal funds going to support adoption agencies that would blatantly discriminate based on religion. And if there are no government funds to support non-discriminating agencies, the excuse had better not be "well, we support these faith-based agencies under OFBICI instead".

Because it's just not fair that I can always mockingly point to your God laden Constitution Act every time you chirp about religion in America, which has no specific constitutional allegiance to Protestants or Catholics.

Thanks for thinking of me, Dick, but I know that you and whats-her-name love it when Canadians talk about America, and I wouldn't deprive you and whats-her-name of your fun.

-k

[kimmy]

I was simply agreeing wih Cybercoma that many Christians do get bent out of shape with analogous things. You don't think so? But I don't think it's relevant. Let them get bent out of shape over an atheist t-shirt if they want, but don't suspend a person for wearing it.

Christians do get bent out of shape all the time over this stuff. I've posted several examples in this tread, in fact. Christians being "offended" by the "You can be good without God" billboards and bus advertising, for example.

Bus companies that have run Christian advertising for decades have had to "revise their policy" when non-Christians wanted to run advertising of their own.

Or the school board that had the policy allowing the Gideons to drop off Bibles for students... had to "revise their policy" when non-Christians decided to drop off religious literature.

Christians love to dish it out, but they sure can't take it. Tough-guys with glass jaws.

-k

[bleeding heart]

If you think Iran is "well behaved" and we are behaving improperly, try living their and expressing what I think your opinion is of Islamic brutality towards gays and women.

I didn't say, nor vaguely hint, that Iran was "well-behaved." I didn't say it because I don't believe it.

Go back and read it again.

Edited May 11, 2012 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

Can you be an atheist and also a Muslim/Christian/Jew? Of course not?

Actually, you can be an atheist Jew. Plenty are, in fact.

The others, no, by definition not, I guess.

[Bonam]

Actually, you can be an atheist Jew. Plenty are, in fact.

Indeed. The term "Jew" is as much an ethnic/racial classification as it is a religious one. One can be completely irreligious and yet be of Jewish ethnicity, and thus be considered a Jew.

[kimmy]

More shocking tales of Persecuted Christians in America, and more specifically Persecuted Christians in North Carolina. Despite their victory in amending their state constitution to ban gay marriage, it has been a tough month for Christians in North Carolina.

First, there was Pastor Sean Harris, who received all kinds of negative attention after telling his parishioners that they should beat their kids straight. "Crack that limp wrist!" Harris even gives his followers a "special dispensation" to do so. As I understand it, in church-talk that phrase means permission to disregard the law in serving the church. hmm. Anyway, despite a non-apology apology and some clarification, Pastor Harris has suffered mightily for speaking the Lord's truth. Pastor Harris has been, figuratively speaking, crucified for his comments by liberal secularoids who don't respect his religious views.

Then Pastor Ron Baity argued for the return of anti-sodomy laws and Pastor Tim Rabon came out with the same kind of "man on dog" type rhetoric that made Rick Santorum a household name. They escaped the kind of persecution that Pastor Harris has received, luckily for them everybody was still so shocked from what Harris said that their own comments went relatively unnoticed.

But that was just the preliminaries. The real persecution of Christians in North Carolina started when Pastor Chuck Worley spoke to his congregation about how he would approach the gay rights issue. His solution: a concentration camp.

The merciless persecution of Pastor Worley came swiftly. His church website has been taken down, his phones have been taken off the hook. He has been talked about and ridiculed on national TV and all over the internet. Even many Christians have attacked him. Here's a guy who has had a 1200 seat church in this community for decades, and here he is being pilloried for preaching the Bible. What's so wrong with a concentration camp for gays? In fact it shows that the Pastor has become much more compassionate towards gays than he was in 1978, when he said they should be lynched like in the good ole days. Where is the respect for this holy man's religious views?

Even his faithful congregation have not escaped the persecution. This week,

and crucified her as well. And by crucified, I mean he asked her softball questions and let her make a fool of herself.

A demonstration is planned, and Maiden NC is set to be invaded by a bunch of liberal secularoids who are going to wave signs and tell this poor pastor that he is wrong for preaching the Bible. Oh those poor North Carolina Christians. Take heart! After all, the Bible tells you that if you're not suffering for your beliefs, you're not doing it right.

-k