Persecuted Christians In America!

[bleeding heart]

What difference does it make if kids learn about unicorns in literature class or biology class?

Exactly; pitch-perfect.

[cybercoma]

Only to those who equate belief in unicorns to Catholics' religious beliefs.

I guess it wouldn't make sense to someone who equates religious dogma with scientific research.

[bleeding heart]

I guess it wouldn't make sense to someone who equates religious dogma with scientific research.

One can "learn" both of them "in school"...so they're exactly the same.

And some posters, after having mistakes exposed, can laugh at themselves and concede their error. And some cannot possibly do this.

[Canuckistani]

Precisely...not only is it government funded, but it is funding not available to other religions.

What do you mean? The Protestant school boards get far more funding than the Catholic ones.

[Guest American Woman]

What do you mean? The Protestant school boards get far more funding than the Catholic ones.

Yet it isn't an issue in Canada that the charter guarantees a religious education to Catholics and Protestants - but not any other religion, eh? They have to pay tuition for private schools - and that's just fine.

[Canuckistani]

Yet it isn't an issue in Canada that the charter guarantees a religious education to Catholics and Protestants - but not any other religion, eh? They have to pay tuition for private schools - and that's just fine.

Well they're not true religions. They want state funding, let em get their own country.

[guyser]

Yet it isn't an issue in Canada that the charter guarantees a religious education to Catholics and Protestants - but not any other religion, eh? They have to pay tuition for private schools - and that's just fine.

The charter does guarantee Cath/Prot funding, but many other religious schools get provincial funding ( in some provinces, full funding for faith based). Some Prov's only pay for public and not Cath schools.

Edited July 24, 2012 by guyser

[blueblood]

Here's an article b LZ granderson on the CNN website. I think he hits the nail on the head here. And *gasp* he's a Christian.

My link

[betsy]

Well I wouldn't exactly call this persecution - but just recently I've had what I can classify as an unfair treatment from the moderator of a site (Carleton Place) where I used to reside.

I just accidentally surfed into it and replied on a topic about the Jesus T-Shirt incident sometime ago (and of course voiced up my opinion as a Christian). Sure enough, I was met with hostilities from the few regulars. I posted a couple of topics (abortion and Word of God - which is basically the same as The Bible on this forum).

One member - who described himself as a Christian - suggested that a section be created for the discussion on religion and debates. The site provider was gracious enough to act on the suggestion and two sections were created (Religion and Debates).

I posted Christian topics like Word of God (which is titled The Bible here on Mapleleaf) etc.., Well, there are only 3 or 4 active regular posters in that forum. They were not really interested in any constructive discussion but from what I can see, they were really trying to shut down the topics on religion.

Well, this site provided the Thread Authors the capability to moderate their own topics - including deleting postings that are offensive. There are however, no specific rules as to what you can delete. Two of these regulars kept going into the Word of God topic. One is abusive - with hardly nothing constructive to contribute (abusive in his words), and the other was into posting out-of-topic statements. So I deleted some of the posts of these two individuals, and even explained why they were deleted. I also warned that I'd be deleting abusive and out-of-topic posts.

Of course they were furious about the deletion, and even warned me about getting banned. The moderator came on board quoted my explanation for deletion and just said that she/he's reminding us to be respectful the way we want to be respected. Well, that statement can be taken just as it is....a reminder to all, which is okay.

So I posted questions (they didn't have any FAQ section or support section) and this power by thread authors to delete was in their code of conduct, but so sadly lacking in specific info. Yes, we were told we were not supposed to abuse that power....but how do we know what constitutes abuse??

So I posted the question 'just so to not unwittingly overstep our bounds in deleting postings, what can we delete?' The moderator answered we can delete out-of-topic and abusive statements (which were the kind of posts I deleted), and then he/she dropped the bombshell that my deletion is not acceptable (and that this is my final warning)....and you know why? She said, because I've been deleting the post of the these same two individuals - like as if I'm picking on them! I'm not deleting all their posts....only those that don't deal with the topic at all and just plain abusive.

Well these two same individuals have been following me all over the board with their disrespectful ways (which is by the way in that site's code of conduct), and besides....there are only 3 or 4 active members (aside from me) in that forum who post regularly! Another 3 or 4 members come in too but not so often.

LOL! It's so.....funny in a way (it's like a Monty Python skit)..... and yet at the same time frustratingly infuriating!

Talk about a throw back into the past - one thought I was from some "backwaters neo-con buffonery region" because one found out I am "betsy" from Mapleleaf. And one practically told me that site is only for residents of Carleton Place and friends. Isn't that so offensively discriminatory?

So, they've got this exclusive club and outsiders are not welcome - well, Christian outsiders who post topics that are anti-abortion and pro-Christ!

I was given the "final warning" for using the capability they gave thread authors to moderate their own threads (the site did not give any other details about that in their code of conduct), and yet they let the 2 regulars to do offenses which are written in their code of conduct. It was an unfair treatment.

So yes, a different kind of "persecution" is here in America.

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Well I wouldn't exactly call this persecution - but just recently I've had what I can classify as an unfair treatment from the moderator of a site (Carleton Place) where I used to reside.

I just accidentally surfed into it and replied on a topic about the Jesus T-Shirt incident sometime ago (and of course voiced up my opinion as a Christian). Sure enough, I was met with hostilities from the few regulars. I posted a couple of topics (abortion and Word of God - which is basically the same as The Bible on this forum).

One member - who described himself as a Christian - suggested that a section be created for the discussion on religion and debates. The site provider was gracious enough to act on the suggestion and two sections were created (Religion and Debates).

I posted Christian topics like Word of God (which is titled The Bible here on Mapleleaf) etc.., Well, there are only 3 or 4 active regular posters in that forum. They were not really interested in any constructive discussion but from what I can see, they were really trying to shut down the topics on religion.

Well, this site provided the Thread Authors the capability to moderate their own topics - including deleting postings that are offensive. There are however, no specific rules as to what you can delete. Two of these regulars kept going into the Word of God topic. One is abusive - with hardly nothing constructive to contribute (abusive in his words), and the other was into posting out-of-topic statements. So I deleted some of the posts of these two individuals, and even explained why they were deleted. I also warned that I'd be deleting abusive and out-of-topic posts.

Of course they were furious about the deletion, and even warned me about getting banned. The moderator came on board quoted my explanation for deletion and just said that she/he's reminding us to be respectful the way we want to be respected. Well, that statement can be taken just as it is....a reminder to all, which is okay.

So I posted questions (they didn't have any FAQ section or support section) and this power by thread authors to delete was in their code of conduct, but so sadly lacking in specific info. Yes, we were told we were not supposed to abuse that power....but how do we know what constitutes abuse??

So I posted the question 'just so to not unwittingly overstep our bounds in deleting postings, what can we delete?' The moderator answered we can delete out-of-topic and abusive statements (which were the kind of posts I deleted), and then he/she dropped the bombshell that my deletion is not acceptable (and that this is my final warning)....and you know why? She said, because I've been deleting the post of the these same two individuals - like as if I'm picking on them! I'm not deleting all their posts....only those that don't deal with the topic at all and just plain abusive.

Well these two same individuals have been following me all over the board with their disrespectful ways (which is by the way in that site's code of conduct), and besides....there are only 3 or 4 active members (aside from me) in that forum who post regularly! Another 3 or 4 members come in too but not so often.

LOL! It's so.....funny in a way (it's like a Monty Python skit)..... and yet at the same time frustratingly infuriating!

Talk about a throw back into the past - one thought I was from some "backwaters neo-con buffonery region" because one found out I am "betsy" from Mapleleaf. And one practically told me that site is only for residents of Carleton Place and friends. Isn't that so offensively discriminatory?

So, they've got this exclusive club and outsiders are not welcome - well, Christian outsiders who post topics that are anti-abortion and pro-Christ!

I was given the "final warning" for using the capability they gave thread authors to moderate their own threads (the site did not give any other details about that in their code of conduct), and yet they let the 2 regulars to do offenses which are written in their code of conduct. It was an unfair treatment.

So yes, a different kind of "persecution" is here in America.

Well since I've poured out that incident, it's only fair to give you the update.

I gave my sincere apology to the people whose posts I'd deleted....realizing that after all my complaints about their attempts to censor and stifle me, I ended up committing the very same offence - in fact, the worst offence of all - by deleting their posts.

But I still feel the same grievance and see the unfair playing field in that site.

[kimmy]

Are you sure they're harassing you because of your religious beliefs?

Have you considered the possibility that they're harassing you because you're obnoxious?

Food for thought...

-k

[Shady]

Are you sure they're harassing you because of your religious beliefs?

Have you considered the possibility that they're harassing you because you're obnoxious?

Many it's both?

Edited July 28, 2012 by Shady

[betsy]

Kimmy and Shady,

Whether obnoxious or not (which I don't think I am - but then, depends on individual interpretations of what's obnoxious), religion plays a big part. When the Christian poster suggested - I've only seen him post that one time, to give this suggestion - to have a section created for the discussion of religion, one of the posters came out opposing the suggestion, and attacked the one who made the suggestion.

I mean, it's an outright dictatorial attitude trying to block the creation of a religion section in the forum, don't you think?

We'd butt heads in this forum (Mapleleaf) on numerous occasion but I've never heard anyone from here to actually try to get rid of our Religion section, nor I'm assuming anyone from here tried to block the creation of this section.

I must reiterate that that site is practically dead compared to Mapleleaf, so the suggestion of this Christian is also an attempt to help increase the traffic to the site.

I wonder who's funding that forum site - the city or a private enetrprise.

NOTE: I took down the posts since it could be a violation of rules.

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[Shady]

Kimmy and Shady,

Whether obnoxious or not (which I don't think I am - but then, depends on individual interpretations of what's obnoxious

I'm fairly certain kimmy finds you obnoxious because of your beliefs. She's pretty much the forum anti-Christian bigot. It's not really a secret anymore.

[Guest American Woman]

I mean, it's an outright dictatorial attitude trying to block the creation of a religion section in the forum, don't you think?

It's not anti-Christian, though - ie: it's not 'persecution re: Christians' as you suggested previously, as a "religion section" in the forum would include all religions.

[betsy]

It's not anti-Christian, though - ie: it's not 'persecution re: Christians' as you suggested previously, as a "religion section" in the forum would include all religions.

As for anti-Christian, I can't say for sure since there are no other religion topics posted there aside from Christian-based. Another Christian came back on board, apparently he quit way back because of the harrassment he got from the same people.

I tried to ignore them...and there were some interests on the topics (especially the Word of God, the Abortion issue). The reader count were high considering the real low numbers of regular posters.

I think too that since these few have been the "senior" posters over the years, they probably imagine to have a territorial stake on the whole site.....and maybe the mod is afraid of losing the few faithful regulars she's got on that site that's why they could get away with bloody murder. I wouldn't hang around there that long....I just want to put all the Bible facts in for the other Christian guy who suggested the religion section. He identified himself as a member of the board from United Church.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm fairly certain kimmy finds you obnoxious because of your beliefs. She's pretty much the forum anti-Christian bigot. It's not really a secret anymore.

Kimmy's not a bigot.

[The_Squid]

Whining about another forum at this one is rather dull. Do you complain at the other forum about your mistreatment at this one?

Good gods...... I've never seen such a victim/martyr on any forum I've posted to...

Edited July 28, 2012 by The_Squid

[betsy]

Whining about another forum at this one is rather dull. Do you complain at the other forum about your mistreatment at this one?

Good gods...... I've never seen such a victim/martyr on any forum I've posted to...

Well, I was responding to this topic. Would I've started a topic to whine about that forum?

Of course not.

Speaking of whining....at least I don't get lost ending up in a sermon topic only to whine about the sermon in it!

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[kimmy]

I'm fairly certain kimmy finds you obnoxious because of your beliefs. She's pretty much the forum anti-Christian bigot. It's not really a secret anymore.

Kimmy's not a bigot.

I have a confession to make... I am a bigot. I am extremely bigoted against scumbags. Scumbag politicians, scumbag bankers, scumbag media people, scumbag police officers, scumbag criminals, scumbags of all descriptions.

And it turns out that there are a lot of religious scumbags as well. And some people might think that we should not talk about scumbaggery when it is committed by people who say their religion demands it. But I don't agree.

-k

[betsy]

I have a confession to make... I am a bigot. I am extremely bigoted against scumbags. Scumbag politicians, scumbag bankers, scumbag media people, scumbag police officers, scumbag criminals, scumbags of all descriptions.

And it turns out that there are a lot of religious scumbags as well. And some people might think that we should not talk about scumbaggery when it is committed by people who say their religion demands it. But I don't agree.

-k

But when you start hating religious people because you THINK they're judging you........yep, that's bigotry. But more likely a deep-seated psychological problem that's triggering what can only be described as, your paranoia.

You've got a lot of anger in you. Your tone in most of your messages related to religion reflect that. What I couldn't forget about you is the past skirmish we've had waaaaay back, I think it was in Jesus Camp....about the little Christian girl who was fantacized with violence over on youtube, simply for approaching people. You supported those people fantacizing violence, I think?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=7231&st=45

Well, wasn't that some sort of persecution, come to think of it?

Did anything traumatic happened to you in the past?

Edited July 29, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Kimmy, just so to fairly show you where I'm getting my opinion about you, I'm bringing up your comment again. It is still very much relevant with your topic....since persecution is usually the result of bigotry.

When I see Muslims in traditional garb bumping around town, I feel a negative reaction. And it's not because I suspect that this person is planning to blow something up. When Muslims complain that people look at them as possibly terrorists, that's not it at all. I really don't. That's not what causes me to react negatively. My reaction is because I suspect that this person looks at me as (to coin a phrase) "a piece of uncovered meat."

If I'm face to face with a woman who believes that it's a sin if more than her face or her hands are showing... uh, I guess that makes me a sinner. There's a judgment implied. I don't blame her for dressing as she believes she has to, but at the same time, it's a very visual signal that we have different world views and that I don't conform to her idea of what's moral. And try as we might, that's going to color our interactions.

If conservative Muslims had the power to make rules in this country, my life would be a lot different. And as you say, if conservative Christians had the power to make rules in this country, or this province, my life would be different too.

But the hardcore Christians don't visually identify themselves... if they're judging me, they seem to keep it to themselves.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=7231&st=90

Edited July 29, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Your comments, trying to make light of something that I think you wouldn't wish to happen to your own child...but it's okay to bring upon to this Christian child....

How does the parents of Rachel feel reading the vicious savageries aimed at their daughter? I am still disturbed by them...still angry and outraged by them! And I don't even know her!

Rhetorics and violent imageries, they take on a new light when we think of our own children as the cast of characters in these imageries. The innocence of Rachel in her joyful belief in Jesus....the innocence of our children in their joyful pursuit of Hockey. The impact of savagery is more than just disturbing...it grabs your heart...it becomes frightening....when we picture our own children in the shoes of Rachel.

Good grief. I don't think a few comments about slapping her qualify as "vicious savagery".

If little Rachel's parents read those comments, perhaps they'll think twice about having her roll up on complete strangers with advice about how to live.

-k

"If she walked up to me, I would grab the leaflets and make her choke on it. "

"please god, help this girl smash her face on a rock."

If these do not qualify as "vicious savagery"...I guess brutalized women have been over-reacting about the "love taps" they get at home.

Anyway, what do the anti-spankers have to say about that, I wonder? Since most of them come from that other side of the fence!

Now, going back to the title and introduction on your topic.....

This topic is very very topical right now, what with all of the persecution and the bigotry that Christians face each and every day in America!

Please! Let us break the silence now! And bring this injustice to light! Please post your examples here!

-k

Exhibit A: Kimmy, the author.

You are my example.

Edited July 29, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

I have a confession to make... I am a bigot. I am extremely bigoted against scumbags. Scumbag politicians, scumbag bankers, scumbag media people, scumbag police officers, scumbag criminals, scumbags of all descriptions.

You do realize what bigot means, right? - One who is narrrowly or intolerantly devoted to his or her opinions and prejudices. Normally when one criticizes a scumbag, it's not considered bigotry, so I find it odd that you would define yourself as a "bigot" because you criticize "scumbags" - so perhaps there's more to it than that? Perhaps you label too many people from a certain group as "scumbags" more because of their association with the group than for their individual actions, or perhaps you associate the whole group with the few? Either of those would make you a bigot, so is that what you are attesting to?

And it turns out that there are a lot of religious scumbags as well. And some people might think that we should not talk about scumbaggery when it is committed by people who say their religion demands it. But I don't agree.

What "some people think" is when someone goes through the trouble of finding every little wrongdoing of one particular group, and then criticizes the whole, never seeing beyond the negative, never supporting anything associated with it, that the person has an agenda at best - or perhaps, as you say, they are a bigot.

Edited July 29, 2012 by American Woman

[kimmy]

You do realize what bigot means, right? - One who is narrrowly or intolerantly devoted to his or her opinions and prejudices. Normally when one criticizes a scumbag, it's not considered bigotry, so I find it odd that you would define yourself as a "bigot" because you criticize "scumbags" - so perhaps there's more to it than that? Perhaps you label too many people from a certain group as "scumbags" more because of their association with the group than for their individual actions, or perhaps you associate the whole group with the few? Either of those would make you a bigot, so is that what you are attesting to?

I don't think I need to explain to you that I was being snide in my previous post.

The word "bigot" is thrown around pretty loosely on this forum, so it doesn't concern me too much. You have to consider the source... and in this case, the source is Shady, which kind of speaks for itself.

You're willing to stand in the pocket and try and tell me why you think I'm wrong. I disagree with you, but I respect that you're willing to argue your case.

Shady, on the other hand, is like a frickin' cuckoo clock. Sticks his head out at regular intervals, says "Kimmy's a bigot!" then vanishes again.

Shady was, of course, one of the motivations behind this thread. Shady continuously regurgitates these right-wing talking-points that "Christians are the only group in America that you're allowed to discriminate against!" and that other great myth, "The War on Christmas". I think those are both laughable and stupid claims, and created this thread in part as an invitation to slug it out on either or both of them.

What "some people think" is when someone goes through the trouble of finding every little wrongdoing of one particular group, and then criticizes the whole, never seeing beyond the negative, never supporting anything associated with it, that the person has an agenda at best - or perhaps, as you say, they are a bigot.

There are several things wrong with that.

First off, I don't post "every little wrongdoing". I could post from sun-up to sun-down and not come close to documenting "every little wrongdoing". For the most part, I have tried to keep the focus here on stories where Christians claim they're being persecuted as a means of obtaining political currency or claiming a moral high ground. And sometimes stories where Christians bring an avalanche of criticism upon themselves by being asses. And stories that particularly tickled my funny bone. I've skipped plenty of stories that didn't really fit the theme. I've skipped plenty of stories that I just didn't have time to write about (For example I was going to laugh at the dumb-ass Christians crying "What about Kirk Cameron's freedom of speech??" after he went on TV and made anti-gay remarks and got in a shitstorm of negative publicity. But I just didn't have time.) But I assure you, AW, if the topic of this thread was "Scumbag Christians" instead of "Persecuted Christians in America," it could be thousands of posts long by now.

If you really think I'm posting "every little wrongdoing" or if you think all this is about "one bad pastor", you have your head in the sand. I'll leave it at that.

Second, so what if I focus more on Christians than on some other group? If there's a writer who focuses his columns on criticizing (hypothetically) the financial industry, does the fact that he doesn't devote equal time to criticizing (say) the military mean that he is unduly biased against the financial industry? Does that make his criticism of finance invalid?

I write about a variety of topics that interest me, and this is one of them. I don't think this is a valid complaint at all.

And finally, I've never criticized all Christians, and never claimed that Christianity is all negative and no positive. That is simply not true.

I certainly agree that churches do some good things. I don't think they need me to pat them on the back for it. They do a plenty fine job of that themselves.

-k