jacee Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) Your poisoning example is the market at work. If someone screws up, the market will correct it.Even if he's dead? How does that work? Instead of people not doing business, they demand regulations. Unfortunately these regulations have the unintended effect of making it more difficult for honest firms to do business. If a firm poisoned people, the free market would have punished them anyway by people not doing business with the firm, thus killing the firm. There's something out of whack here ...People dying from poisoned products is just a happy opportunity for the market to regulate/correct itself. Regulations, however, are "unfortunate". You see anything there you want to rethink? EG maybe that the market serves the people, and preferably doesn't have to kill people to correct its godly self? Edited November 11, 2011 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 This is false....the concepts for modern computing machines were developed by private individuals who were not publicly funded (e.g abacus, Charles Babbage, mechanical calculators, etc.) . The technology supporting Apple computers is also traceable to private sector research and development for discrete devices and large scale integrated circuits. At best it can be said that publicly funded R&D accelerated development of computing devices. No actually its absolutely true. There was earlier iterations that used punch cards but they died on the vine because the private sector wasnt interested. The modern computing age came as a result of massive public investment in both computers and networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 And that's why we're the biggest and meanest sombitches in the world today. Hard to argue with success! No, youre the biggest because you eat at jack in the box too much, and youre nowhere near the meanest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 No, everybody lives in the market. Thinking that anyone can overcome nature is a fantasy because it will always bring itself into balance. Right thats the whole problem with your utopian vision. Human nature will never allow it. And thats exactly why the world works the way it does. All the big economies are mixed economy with a fair ammount of government interference and regulation, and they always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 No, youre the biggest because you eat at jack in the box too much, and youre nowhere near the meanest. The argument here was proceeding well enough without insults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 To add: Besides funding research, governments also protect patents, grant rights to develop and exploit natural resources, enforce labour laws that allow business to enjoy wealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 No, youre the biggest because you eat at jack in the box too much, and youre nowhere near the meanest. That's OK....my fat ass doesn't need to seek employment opportunities in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I plan to profit from this mess in the next few years. Well maybe not profit, but buy a good chunk of land for pretty cheap if housing/land values drop here in Canada. In the meantime I am saving most of the money I make now. But I guess that depends if the banks crash or not before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 To add: Besides funding research, governments also protect patents, grant rights to develop and exploit natural resources, enforce labour laws that allow business to enjoy wealth. I think that everyone understands it has a role in the market. The debate is how much of a role should it have. In my opinion there is always balance and whenever something acts it upsets the balance and something will happen to restore that balance. Almost like physics. That's why I'm such a supporter of market principles, it doesn't try to change nature, it understands it and works within it's parameters and is fair to a point of cruelty/benevolence. I think that people by nature are impatient and want to correct imbalances quickly and to their benefit rather than waiting for the imbalances to correct themselves over time. The problem with people trying to correct imbalances through gov't intervention is that quite often they don't see the unintended consequences of those actions. The USSR is an extreme example of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 The argument here was proceeding well enough without insults. All in good fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) I think that everyone understands it has a role in the market. The debate is how much of a role should it have. In my opinion there is always balance and whenever something acts it upsets the balance and something will happen to restore that balance. Almost like physics. That's why I'm such a supporter of market principles, it doesn't try to change nature, it understands it and works within it's parameters and is fair to a point of cruelty/benevolence. I think that people by nature are impatient and want to correct imbalances quickly and to their benefit rather than waiting for the imbalances to correct themselves over time. The problem with people trying to correct imbalances through gov't intervention is that quite often they don't see the unintended consequences of those actions. The USSR is an extreme example of this. I believe you made the comment earlier that all the regulatory red tape makes it difficult for honest people to do business. I agree, but without screening and regulation, how do we know they're honest? It isn't good enough to say "the market will correct itself" if consumers or workers have to be injured, poisoned and possibly die for that correction to happen. Some people will always cut corners for extra profit leaving workers and consumers vulnerable. We KNOW that. People who have done good and honest work in the past may become lax over time without oversight. Regulatory red tape IS the market correcting itself. If there weren't problems, it wouldn't have evolved that way. However, if regulations are written to favour some companies over others as political payoffs or patronage, I believe you'd have virtually unanimous support in blowing that apart! There is another route that can help, the one taken by most professions, self-regulation: Doctors, lawyers, teachers, psychologists and many other professions set standards for practice, and have regulatory bodies that the public/consumers can access when they have complaints. Practitioners can be and are suspended, sent for retraining, decertified, etc. To my knowledge, business, industry, banking, etc. don't operate this way. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) It seems to me that in the private sector, PROFIT is king and whatever you can do to get there is considered fair game. I recall in an earlier discussion about the subprime mortgages/hedge fund issue I asked a question about "what are the standards?" The person who responded said "There were no standards (for the loans). Everybody got one." My question, however, was actually about 'What are the professional standards for traders?" but it was clear to me that there are none except skirting the line of the law as closely as possible, and going over the line without getting caught. We entrust the financial and business communities with our economy, jobs, our very existence, and yet they have no internal, professional standards? Something wrong there! As examples ... Certified General Accountants have standards ... lots of them ... but I can find no information about a regulatory body or a route for public complaints ... http://www.cga-canada.org/en-ca/Standards/ProfessionalAndPracticeStandards/SMP/Pages/ca_support_SMPs.aspx Also, there are industry designations for Corporate Social Responsibility, but all a company has to do is post it on their website and then use it as PR for getting contracts: There is absolutely no oversight, nothing to prevent them from listing their company on the TSX, nothing to prevent them from violating those 'standards'. Friday, March 25, 2011 Corporate Social Responsibility Suppressed Report Confirms International Violations by Canadian Mining Companies News release: A report obtained by MiningWatch Canada reveals that Canadian mining companies are implicated in four times as many violations of Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) as mining companies from other countries. The report was commissioned by the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada (PDAC) in 2009 but was never released to the public. ... Canadian companies are more likely to be engaged in community conflict, environmental and unethical behaviour...” Importantly, the report also found that the large majority of the Canadian mining companies involved in such violations have CSR policies in place.“ Edited November 11, 2011 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) For someone who tries to play it as if he doesn't care what canadians think, and attempts to belittle Canada all the time... BC_2004 November 9th, 2011 Post Timeline (THIS THREAD ONLY) 1:26pm 2:12pm 2:38pm 2:55pm 2:57pm 3:14pm 5:12pm 7:04pm 9:06pm 10:13pm 10:32pm 10:38pm 10:40pm 10:48pm 11:01pm ALL DAY ON CANADIAN BOARDS. Even if BC had the day off, what type of American would spend their day off constantly checking Canadian forums... especially when they claim to not care about our opinions? What kind of easy job allows that kind of vacous effort? The first step is realizing that you have a problem. Seriously. Edited November 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 The type that wishes he could get paid to troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 For someone who tries to play it as if he doesn't care what canadians think, and attempts to belittle Canada all the time... BC_2004 November 9th, 2011 Post Timeline (THIS THREAD ONLY) 1:26pm 2:12pm 2:38pm 2:55pm 2:57pm 3:14pm 5:12pm 7:04pm 9:06pm 10:13pm 10:32pm 10:38pm 10:40pm 10:48pm 11:01pm ALL DAY ON CANADIAN BOARDS. Another member of my fan club? Here let me sign your post...."To my best fan...love, BC2004" Even if BC had the day off, what type of American would spend their day off constantly checking Canadian forums... especially when they claim to not care about our opinions? What kind of easy job allows that kind of vacous effort? That's right...I get paid big money just to bust your balls! The first step is realizing that you have a problem. Seriously. Oh you have a problem alright.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't think questioning someone's motivation is an insult, but I have always thought that it detracts from the argument no matter how it's brought up. On another web board once, I was questioning how the decisions are made to go to war with another country and got into a debate with a poster. At a certain point, he claimed that my arguments were based on the fact that I was "French", which confused me until I realized that my handle was something like "Lafleur Fan" ! In any case, posters may be American, Canadian, 99%, 1%, or whatever ... but facts and logic are not so we should be able to defend our points either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 The type that wishes he could get paid to troll. He probably does. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/17/online-persona-management_n_837153.html The U.S. Military has purchased software designed to create and control false online personas in an attempt to use social media and other websites to counter anti-U.S. messaging. According to the contract between US Central Command (Centcom) and California company Ntrepid, the software would let each user control 10 personas, each "replete with background, history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographically consistent." The software would also be able to let personas "appear to originate in nearly any part of the world" and interact through "conventional online services and social media platforms," while using a static IP address for each persona to maintain a consistent online identity. These false online personas, also known as "sock puppets," would be equipped to seem like real people while entering online discussion through blogs, message boards, chats, and more. With a false persona, a user could discredit opponents, or create the semblance of consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 American propaganda "sock puppets"... interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 American propaganda "sock puppets"... interesting. Even their paranoia is dominated by Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Even their paranoia is dominated by Americans. Their anti-American paranoia. In any case... I call thread drift on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) That's right...I get paid big money just to bust your balls! I was more thinking that it screamed "desk job" in a cubicle, most likely without a window ----- Here's an info graphic (don't know if it was already posted.) http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/canada-income/index.html I would have never thought that I'd end so close to the top 5% in Canada. Maybe I should change my name... UpperMiddleClassCentrist... Edited November 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I was more thinking that it screamed "desk job" in a cubicle, most likely without a window Wouldn't bother me at all....there are no "windows" on submarines either. Your just jealous that I have the ability to dance all day and night, while you can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) I don't think questioning someone's motivation is an insult, but I have always thought that it detracts from the argument no matter how it's brought up. On another web board once, I was questioning how the decisions are made to go to war with another country and got into a debate with a poster. At a certain point, he claimed that my arguments were based on the fact that I was "French", which confused me until I realized that my handle was something like "Lafleur Fan" ! In any case, posters may be American, Canadian, 99%, 1%, or whatever ... but facts and logic are not so we should be able to defend our points either way. Nobody cares that BC is American... jesus Mike. The problem is when a posters entire purpose here is to troll, and derail every single thread with posts about how Canadians watch American TV. BC has absolutely no interest in debating anything at all. I like the idea of having posters from the US in on some of these discussions. If one/some ever decide to participate that would be great. Edited November 12, 2011 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) ...I like the idea of having posters from the US in on some of these discussions. If one/some ever decide to participate that would be great. So we have to participate on your personal terms and expectations....are you on Canadian drugs (made in America)? To your other point, I AM NOT CANADIAN. I do not apologize or excuse myself for just thinking about farting. Edited November 12, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 So we have to participate on your personal terms and expectations....are you on Canadian drugs (made in America)? To your other point, I AM NOT CANADIAN. I do not apologize or excuse myself for just thinking about farting. No but you should have to participate on the terms of the forums rules and write on-topic posts instead of just trolling all day. Now youre talking about farting. Pretty much par for the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) Wouldn't bother me at all....there are no "windows" on submarines either. Your just jealous that I have the ability to dance all day and night, while you can't. You can pretend all you want. Doesn't make it real. I can pretend to be a millionaire who has an orgy with 5 women every night and is happily married to a woman who participates. Can't be verified. So I'll still know you for what you are and not the fantasy your attempt to convey, desk job Edited November 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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