Omar Khadr is coming back to Canada.

[WWWTT]

And the fact he was 15 when he was indoctrinated as an Islamist is beside the point. Do we forgive a child rapist because his actions are the results of him being abused when he was a child? Khadr is what he is, an Islamist who is violently opposed to everything we stand for.

I would not be so quick to brush off the fact he was 15 yrs old when this happened.He must have bein yonger still when he was brainwashed into this cult.

I do not believe anything was said about forgiving this person?(thats more like granting a pardon)

Does Khadr still hate this country?Did he ever really hate Canada?Does Khadr actually want to come back to Canada and try to make good on a second chance?Does he deserve a second chance?And if not then why?

You claim or imply that he still hates Canada,does he or is this just your opinion.If I looked would I find a site backing you up?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

And does the Pope still advocate a Nazi ideology? Did he continue to advocate it relentlessly for years after the war ended? Khadr has not rejected Islamism. He continues to believe in it.

You are making a very questionable comment here!

Are you suggesting that there is something wrong with following the Islamic faith?

And that he must reject this relegion to be accepted into Canadian society?

WWWTT

[wyly]

No they were'nt...Some were definately blacklisted from any political involvment...

and the two I knew who emigrated to canada, they weren't blacklisted from political involvement in canada...

[bud]

And the fact he was 15 when he was indoctrinated as an Islamist is beside the point. Do we forgive a child rapist because his actions are the results of him being abused when he was a child? Khadr is what he is, an Islamist who is violently opposed to everything we stand for.

is he an islamist or was it nationalism and/or pressure from parents?

i don't think him fighting against the foreign fighters has anything to do with religion, but who knows.

[Moonbox]

and the Nazi's of WW2 labeled the resistance forces of occupied europe terrorists but to us they're hero's fighting against huge odds.

Godwin's Law. Well done wyly. Of course we can count on you for that...

[wyly]

Godwin's Law. Well done wyly. Of course we can count on you for that...

well done Moonbox... repeating a meme of a non-existent law which itself then becomes a meme...of course we count on you for that...

[WWWTT]

is he an islamist or was it nationalism and/or pressure from parents?

i don't think him fighting against the foreign fighters has anything to do with religion, but who knows.

Islamist?

What does this word mean?

To me it's on the same lines as "Catholic","Jewish" or "Athiest" a religious belief/or no belief.(I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here)

Is it a crime to have a faith or belief of your own choice?

Your faith is protected in the Canadian constitution!

Are you implying that NATO attacked Afganistan because the people there are "Islamist"?!?!

There is nothing wrong with being Islamic!

WWWTT

[Diana1976]

For those interested in facts, here are some.

Khadr was raised mainly outside Canada, in Afghanistan/Pakistan by and among people who thought it was right to fight against the US in the Afghanistan insurgency because the US invaded Afghanistan and they saw it as being at war with their religion. We wouldn't see it that way, but there is no reason why 15 year old Khadr wouldn't accept the beliefs of his parents and those around him. He had 8 years of education, only grade one in Canada.

He was willing to join the war for the same reason countless others have joined wars, because those around them encouraged them and because the idea of war is attractive, especially to boys and young men. They don't generally think very deeply about whether the cause is just or not, and that's usually a complex issue.

Omar Khadr's father, who was a co-ordinator in the insurgency, sent him on a mission with the head of the Lybian faction to act as a translator and guide, asking him to "look after him". Omar ended up in a fight with the US military two months later.

Khadr's actions in that war, including killing a soldier with a grenade, which he might have done but nobody knows for sure, did not resemble war crimes, or terrorism, as those are normally defined. But, his status as a person fighting with an irregular armed group meant he wasn't immune from prosecution for anything he did under the domestic laws of the country he was in. But the US used the military commission system to charge him with war crimes and terrorism anyway, through a highly controversial legal interpretation, and by using illegal methods to interrogate him, under which people tend to say whatever the interrogator wants to hear. The US Supreme Court decided this system was illegal.

Khadr should have come under the protection of a law that was adopted by both Canada and the US, nicknamed the child soldier law, but it doesn't apply only to soldiers of regular armies. It applies to minors involved in war and usually they are with irregular armed groups because responsible military organizations don't recruit them. The head of the UN program asked the military commission to consider this law, but the Gtmo judge determined it was superceded by the Military Commission Act, although he actually seemed sympathetic to the argument. He was the same judge who tried to dismiss this case, and was replaced because of that, likely as a result of political interference during the Bush years.

The thinking behind this "child soldier law", actually the law on minors in armed conflict, is that very young people join wars with neither the knowledge nor ability to evaluate the validity of the cause, which is always complex. In fact, there is generally a reluctance to charge low level soldiers or fighters of any age with war crimes for the same reason. There is much more a tradition of charging those in command.

In the period immediately following 9/11, the Bush Admin wanted to charge any of its Gtmo detainees if it possibly could in order to justify rounding up hundreds of people. That's why Khadr was charged. He seems to have been the only person similarly charged by the US in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Canadian government wasn't in any position to challenge the US in the early years. Later it could have intervened on Khadr's behalf but chose not to, for political reasons. The government in power in the early years expressed regret for not having done so, after the fact, based on subsequent information.

The media regularly reports that Khadr "confessed" to being a "terrorist" and "war criminal" but he had no choice if he ever wanted to get out of Gtmo, on a plea deal, because that's how the system works. The US had been going after a plea deal for years because part of the bargain was that Khadr couldn't appeal the decision in the regular courts. Remember that the US Supreme Court had declared the whole system illegal, as it was when the case against Khadr was being concocted, and the Canadian Supreme Court decided his particular treatment was illegal.

Given his experience in his family and since being at Gtmo, it's possible Khadr could be dangerous, but if the US government thought so it would never have agreed to a deal that would mean his release just over their border in Canada within about seven years or sooner. All reports from Gtmo indicate that he is not dangerous. He appears to realize that he was caught in something very wrong, and is trying to prepare himself for a decent life some day. His American lawyer delivers school lessons sent by a Canadian teacher. They do their lessons while Omar is shackled in place, mostly held in solidtary confinement now. He was always considered a "compliant" detainee but the rule is that once a person has had a trial they have to be in solitary. There are only 4 Gtmo detainees who have been convicted of anything and are still there. The Miami Herald calls them the video maker, the small arms trainer, the cook and the kid (Omar), illustrating the unintentional absurdities of the military commision system.

Khadr deserves a chance to prove, under surveillance, that he can be a good citizen. Those Canadians who don't want to give him this chance are mindlessly, ignorantly hateful. Shame on them. They discredit our country.

[bush_cheney2004]

Omar Khadr is a convicted war criminal by his own legal plea:

On October 25, 2010, Khadr pleaded guilty to murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, two counts of providing material support for terrorism and spying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

[ToadBrother]

Omar Khadr is a convicted war criminal by his own legal plea:

On October 25, 2010, Khadr pleaded guilty to murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, two counts of providing material support for terrorism and spying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

I won't deny he's a Canadian citizen. He's also a traitor by any reasonable definition of the word; taking up arms against Canada and its allies.

I'd give the guy a choice. Come back to Canada and be tried for treasonous acts against the Crown, or a one-way ticket to Afghanistan.

And I don't want to hear any of this "he was only fifteen years old" B.S. By any account, that makes him old enough to understand the morality and consequences of his actions. Being indoctrinated does not excuse crimes. If it did, every two-bit skin head white supremacist murderer would be getting lenient sentences because, well, they were raised into it.

[ToadBrother]

Islamist?

What does this word mean?

To me it's on the same lines as "Catholic","Jewish" or "Athiest" a religious belief/or no belief.(I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here)

Is it a crime to have a faith or belief of your own choice?

Your faith is protected in the Canadian constitution!

Are you implying that NATO attacked Afganistan because the people there are "Islamist"?!?!

There is nothing wrong with being Islamic!

WWWTT

Islamism does not refer to being a Muslim. That's Islam. Islamism is a set of fundamentalist jihadist ideologies that believe in the furthering of Islam through attacks on those perceived as enemies of Islam and upon Islamic governments that are perceived to have allied themselves with such governments.

I think, being ten years after 9-11, that you might have got the terminology straight.

[Bonam]

Omar is innocent of murder and deserves his freedom. I hope he comes back and sues the Harper government for $100 million.

The "Harper government" would be the Canadian government, in case you've forgotten. And the $100 million would be paid by Canadian taxpayers, instead of being spent on useful things. That you would "hope" for this says more about you than anything else.

[ToadBrother]

The "Harper government" would be the Canadian government, in case you've forgotten. And the $100 million would be paid by Canadian taxpayers, instead of being spent on useful things. That you would "hope" for this says more about you than anything else.

I'm not sure what he would sue the Canadian Government for. He was caught and detained by US forces. And to be honest, I doubt very much that even someone like Jean Chretien or Paul Martin would have done much more than pay lip service to it anyways.

I'm not sure why anyone would want a follower of a murderous religious-political doctrine to get a hundred million bucks. It would be like Roch Theriault's family suing Corrections Canada for not keeping him safe in his cell.

[WWWTT]

Islamism does not refer to being a Muslim. That's Islam. Islamism is a set of fundamentalist jihadist ideologies that believe in the furthering of Islam through attacks on those perceived as enemies of Islam and upon Islamic governments that are perceived to have allied themselves with such governments.

I think, being ten years after 9-11, that you might have got the terminology straight.

You have a link to back up your claim or is this your perception?

I checked out wikipedia and it is not clear.

Aswell can you provide a site stating that "Islamism" is outlawed or banned in Canada?

Are "Islamists" deemed to be terrorists?

I am very familiar with the term "Islamic terrorist",but as far as I know at this point an "Islamist" is a follower of Islam who lives by strict Islamic ritual.Or another way of describing the term can be an orthodox Islamic.The terrorist uses violence against others,the other doesn't.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I think, being ten years after 9-11, that you might have got the terminology straight.

What makes you think I'm brainwashed by the media like 99% of the population?

Is it wrong that I'm not brainwashed by the media?

WWWTT

[Bob]

What makes you think I'm brainwashed by the media like 99% of the population?

Is it wrong that I'm not brainwashed by the media?

WWWTT

Although Toadbrother's definition of "Islamism" leaves something to be desires, he's absolutely right in mocking you for being oblivious of this term - as it is clearly something new for you. Islamism, put simply, is political Islam. Those who subscribe to Islamism (which clearly overlaps greatly with Islam) desire and expansion of Islam and an establishment of Islam as the law of the land. Again, you being dumbfounded by this term and asking for help tells us exactly what ToadBrother was alluding to - that you clearly don't pay any serious attention to these issues. If we needed any reason to devalue your commentary on this board any further, we just got it.

[jacee]

He was not a citizen of Afghanistan, and the army he was fighting was made up of Afghanis. So in point of fact he was a member of a violent foreign terrorist group which was fighting a native revolution which was aided by the Americans.

And the fact he was 15 when he was indoctrinated as an Islamist is beside the point. Do we forgive a child rapist because his actions are the results of him being abused when he was a child? Khadr is what he is, an Islamist who is violently opposed to everything we stand for.

Yes we do consider age and contributing factors when sentencing adolescents. Besides, in Harper's Canada, raping babies is considered no more serious than growing a few marijuana plants.

After being indoctrinated by their father as children and forced to go through training in Afghanistan, Omar's eldest brother chose to continue that path. The second oldest, however, rebelled and refused - just wanted to be an ordinary kid - and was punished and vilified by Dad for it; Dad offered him up as a suicide bomber and tried to have him indoctrinated to kill himself. Bro persisted and is out of it today - an informant, I believe.

Then there's young Omar, the baby of the family who, according to his mother, "Would always just cry." ... a 'baby', not strong and rebellious like his brother, who knew if he didn't do what terrifying Dad said, he would become a walking bomb and then dead very quickly.

He was a childat 15 in every sense of the world, and Canada's failure to come to the defense of a virtual prisoner child soldier is abhorrent.

Omar Kadhr is a 'chicken' and didn't kill anybody. He was injured and under a pile of rubble when the grenade was thrown. He didn't kill anyone and that testimony at pre-trial was an extreme embarrassment to the US. He took a plea bargain as the fastest route back to Canada.

I'm not aware of any statements by Omar indicating that he has any terrorist motives or feelings. He still cries for his Mommy, wants to play with his Xbox and come home to Canada. That's all +mar 'adhr is about and all he was ever about.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Omar Kadhr is a 'chicken' and didn't kill anybody. He was injured and under a pile of rubble when the grenade was thrown. He didn't kill anyone and that testimony at pre-trial was an extreme embarrassment to the US. He took a plea bargain as the fastest route back to Canada.

Nope....Khadr is a convicted war criminal whose life was saved by medical attention from the very Americans he was trying to kill. Send him back to live a life of shame in Canada, or give him a free plane ride back to Afghanerrstan and a 20 minute running head start before the UAV's start looking for him.

[Bob]

For those interested in facts, here are some.

Khadr was raised mainly outside Canada, in Afghanistan/Pakistan by and among people who thought it was right to fight against the US in the Afghanistan insurgency because the US invaded Afghanistan and they saw it as being at war with their religion. We wouldn't see it that way, but there is no reason why 15 year old Khadr wouldn't accept the beliefs of his parents and those around him. He had 8 years of education, only grade one in Canada.

He was willing to join the war for the same reason countless others have joined wars, because those around them encouraged them and because the idea of war is attractive, especially to boys and young men. They don't generally think very deeply about whether the cause is just or not, and that's usually a complex issue.

Omar Khadr's father, who was a co-ordinator in the insurgency, sent him on a mission with the head of the Lybian faction to act as a translator and guide, asking him to "look after him". Omar ended up in a fight with the US military two months later.

Khadr's actions in that war, including killing a soldier with a grenade, which he might have done but nobody knows for sure, did not resemble war crimes, or terrorism, as those are normally defined. But, his status as a person fighting with an irregular armed group meant he wasn't immune from prosecution for anything he did under the domestic laws of the country he was in. But the US used the military commission system to charge him with war crimes and terrorism anyway, through a highly controversial legal interpretation, and by using illegal methods to interrogate him, under which people tend to say whatever the interrogator wants to hear. The US Supreme Court decided this system was illegal.

Khadr should have come under the protection of a law that was adopted by both Canada and the US, nicknamed the child soldier law, but it doesn't apply only to soldiers of regular armies. It applies to minors involved in war and usually they are with irregular armed groups because responsible military organizations don't recruit them. The head of the UN program asked the military commission to consider this law, but the Gtmo judge determined it was superceded by the Military Commission Act, although he actually seemed sympathetic to the argument. He was the same judge who tried to dismiss this case, and was replaced because of that, likely as a result of political interference during the Bush years.

The thinking behind this "child soldier law", actually the law on minors in armed conflict, is that very young people join wars with neither the knowledge nor ability to evaluate the validity of the cause, which is always complex. In fact, there is generally a reluctance to charge low level soldiers or fighters of any age with war crimes for the same reason. There is much more a tradition of charging those in command.

In the period immediately following 9/11, the Bush Admin wanted to charge any of its Gtmo detainees if it possibly could in order to justify rounding up hundreds of people. That's why Khadr was charged. He seems to have been the only person similarly charged by the US in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Canadian government wasn't in any position to challenge the US in the early years. Later it could have intervened on Khadr's behalf but chose not to, for political reasons. The government in power in the early years expressed regret for not having done so, after the fact, based on subsequent information.

The media regularly reports that Khadr "confessed" to being a "terrorist" and "war criminal" but he had no choice if he ever wanted to get out of Gtmo, on a plea deal, because that's how the system works. The US had been going after a plea deal for years because part of the bargain was that Khadr couldn't appeal the decision in the regular courts. Remember that the US Supreme Court had declared the whole system illegal, as it was when the case against Khadr was being concocted, and the Canadian Supreme Court decided his particular treatment was illegal.

Given his experience in his family and since being at Gtmo, it's possible Khadr could be dangerous, but if the US government thought so it would never have agreed to a deal that would mean his release just over their border in Canada within about seven years or sooner. All reports from Gtmo indicate that he is not dangerous. He appears to realize that he was caught in something very wrong, and is trying to prepare himself for a decent life some day. His American lawyer delivers school lessons sent by a Canadian teacher. They do their lessons while Omar is shackled in place, mostly held in solidtary confinement now. He was always considered a "compliant" detainee but the rule is that once a person has had a trial they have to be in solitary. There are only 4 Gtmo detainees who have been convicted of anything and are still there. The Miami Herald calls them the video maker, the small arms trainer, the cook and the kid (Omar), illustrating the unintentional absurdities of the military commision system.

Khadr deserves a chance to prove, under surveillance, that he can be a good citizen. Those Canadians who don't want to give him this chance are mindlessly, ignorantly hateful. Shame on them. They discredit our country.

I can't resist addressing some of the lies in this long post. I'd like to start with these assertions from you (and from Sir Bandelot, if I recall correctly) about the validity of Khadr's guilt. All we need to do is consider the circumstances of his capture. There was a firefight between American soldiers and terrorists (whom you label as "irregular armed group", much like the leftist vermin who describe illegal immigrants as "undocumented workers"). The firefight ended. Unbeknownst to the American soldiers at the time, Khadr had been the sole terrorist survivor, who then murdered an American medic through treachery by waiting for him to approach. After throwing the grenade which murdered the American medic, the other soldiers responded rapidly and shot Khadr. Unfortunately, Khadr survived. He was saved by another American medic who tended to his wounds. The American soldiers present saw Khadr, the sole surviving terrorist of the original firefight, throw the grenade and shot him. There is no question about Khadr's guilt in the throwing of the grenade that murdered the American medic - there were no other terrorists alive at this point in the conflict and the other American soldiers saw Khadr throw the grenade. These lie from the rats on the left about the supposed innocence of Khadr needs to end. Full stop.

Beyond that, you are trying to advance this sick narrative of Khadr not being responsible for his actions because of how he viewed the world. That's literally what your argument boils down to, that those around him believed that the West was at war with Islam, so that Khadr had no choice but to accept this narrative. I guess Osama Bin Laden, Khaled Sheikh Mohammad, and Ramzi Bin Al Shib can all be forgiven for their crimes of mass murder because, well, that's just how they saw things. Nevermind the fact one of Khadr's brothers has completely rejected the Islamist narrative of his family and has since been disowned, despite being raised around these rats who you are trying to make excuses for.

Nobody knows what "child soldier law" you are referring to. Are you referring to an addition to the Geneva Conventions which encourages signatory countries to do whatever they can not to utilize children under the age of fifteen in their operations, without expressly prohibiting their participation? According to this "law", Khadr is offered no special protections, aside from the fact that he was not fighting with a force that is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions,, therefore he is not to be afforded any of the protections provided by it. Beyond that, nobody cares was some likeminded leftist apparatchik at the UN charged with managing the "child soldier" department had to say about this.

Your above post is about 50% lies and 50% misdirection. I really don't have the energy at the moment to go through it point by point. But I have followed this case very closely. I have read all sorts of articles from Amnesty and HRW regarding Khadr. I have read declassified documents from Canada and the USA outlining their correspondences about the treatment Khadr was being afforded at Gitmo. I read the decision from the SCoC stating that Khadr's rights had been violated, but not ordering his repatriation. I'll just say one last thing, Khadr was never tortured, but was subjected to limited sleep deprivation. What is limited sleep deprivation, you may ask? It means not being permitted to sleep more than three hours without being woken up and moved to another location. Although I can't remember the length of time to which Khadr was subjected to this, I think it never lasted more than a few days, and didn't total more than two weeks. Of course, in your view, that is sadistic torture.

Go watch the PBS documentary, Frontline: The Al-Qaeda Files, part 6 of 7, Son of Al-Qaeda, and see where Khadr's brother talks about being an informant for the CIA at Gitmo and how his brother was 110% AL-Qaeda.

[Bob]

Nope....Khadr is a convicted war criminal whose life was saved by medical attention from the very Americans he was trying to kill. Send him back to live a life of shame in Canada, or give him a free plane ride back to Afghanerrstan and a 20 minute running head start before the UAV's start looking for him.

What are you talking about? He will be revered here as a hero by many on the left. Jacee and Diana1976 will be waiting for his departure from the plane with flowers and will pre-order his biography and even buy VIP tickets to the speeches he will give. He will live a very good life when he comes back to Canada, and will profit greatly from his actions. That is how sick Canada has become, and it's sad to see.

As I've already said, there is no question whether he was guilty. He was witnessed by the American soldiers throwing the grenade, and then, strangely, saved by the very people he was trying to murder. DogOnPorch said it right, that this story should've been ended with a bullet on the battlefield. Perhaps, however, Khadr provided some important intelligence to America when he was at Gitmo.

[Guest American Woman]

Then there's young Omar, the baby of the family who, according to his mother, "Would always just cry." ... a 'baby', not strong and rebellious like his brother, who knew if he didn't do what terrifying Dad said, he would become a walking bomb and then dead very quickly. ...............

He still cries for his Mommy, wants to play with his Xbox and come home to Canada. That's all +mar 'adhr is about and all he was ever about.

And you know all of this .... because his mother said so. And of course, her word is not to be questioned. She does sounds like an excellent mother. She knew her "poor baby" was being abused by his "terrifying dad" and did nothing about it. Sounds like someone with great ethics and wonderful moral character. I'm sure she'd never let anything but the truth escape her lips.

Fact is, you have no knowledge of whether or not "young Omar" threw the grenade. You have no way of knowing. It's your opinion that he didn't - nothing more.

But do keep defending him and his family all the same; declaring his innocence, quoting Mommy Khadr as if she were someone to be respected. God knows they are so much more trustworthy than anyone from the Evil United States.

[olp1fan]

And you know all of this .... because his mother said so. And of course, her word is not to be questioned. She does sounds like an excellent mother. She knew her "poor baby" was being abused by his "terrifying dad" and did nothing about it. Sounds like someone with great ethics and wonderful moral character. I'm sure she'd never let anything but the truth escape her lips.

Fact is, you have no knowledge of whether or not "young Omar" threw the grenade. You have no way of knowing. It's your opinion that he didn't - nothing more.

But do keep defending him and his family all the same; declaring his innocence, quoting Mommy Khadr as if she were someone to be respected. God knows they are so much more trustworthy than anyone from the Evil United States.

Though I do sympathize with citizens of countries that are invaded whom wish to defend their land He should not be allowed back in!

Edited October 13, 2011 by olp1fan

[Bob]

Not sure if anyone's interested, but the PBS Frontline "The Al-Qaeda Files" episode, "Son of Al-Qaeda" is available on YouTube divided into parts. Here is a part that shows the Khadr family, the rats that they are, with one of their sons, Abdurahman, telling everyone, "I want to show people... that I was raised to become an Al-Qaeda, was raised to become a suicide bomber, was raised to become a bad person, and I came out, I decided on my own that I do not wanna be that". Basically, this is Khadr's brother completely destroying the lies from jacee and Diana1976 about Khadr not having any choice in his actions and therefore not being responsible for murder. Oh wait, Khadr probably didn't even murder the American soldier. Lastly, Khadr probably didn't murder any other Americans when he was assisting the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in constructing IEDs and other operations. Oh wait, Khadr was probably just in Afghanistan being a peaceful tourist.

Go to 3:00 to see his rat mother and one of his scum sisters (Zeinab) talking up the patriarch terrorist and endorsing Jihad, while remaining Canadian citizens in Toronto.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Bob

[Guest American Woman]

Though I do sympathize with citizens of countries that are invaded whom wish to defend their land He should not be allowed back in!

His country is Canada. But I must say, this surprises me. I don't think it's an question of his not being allowed back in, though - he is a natural born Canadian. From what I understand, he'd have to be tried and convicted of treason in order to lose his citizenship. What I don't understand is the mindset of the Canadians practically hero-worshiping him - thinking Canada owes him something.

[olp1fan]

His country is Canada. But I must say, this surprises me. I don't think it's an question of his not being allowed back in, though - he is a natural born Canadian. From what I understand, he'd have to be tried and convicted of treason in order to lose his citizenship. What I don't understand is the mindset of the Canadians practically hero-worshiping him - thinking Canada owes him something.

Those are the tree hugging liberals, they are a dying breed