Ontario employees sent memo about "sensitivity" to Muslims.

Bob · September 29, 2011

He's been hilarious lately. My favourite Hardnerism is when he told me I couldn't criticize his statement, because it was only his opinion. Apparently if you put the letters IMO after anything, it protects it from any scrutiny. I wasn't aware of this concept.

See, I've met people like him before so he's not a novelty to me. In his own mind he is ultra rational and logical, always seeking "proof", "evidence", "studies", or a "cite". In the real world, however, he just reveals how mechanical he is. You gotta have a sense of humour about these things. As much as I despise people who hold the political views of leftists like Michael Hardner (no doubt he views himself as a "rational centrist"), at least I can take a moment to laugh at his methods of operation.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Bob

The_Squid · September 29, 2011

Anyone else find it amusing how Michael Hardner fancies himself as some sort of philosopher? He thinks he's giving us a crash course in epistemology, or something. it's hilarious. I bet if I said the NFL was the blackest professional sports organization he's demand a "cite", or if we told him that renters tend to take worse care of their homes than owners he'd demand "proof". It's a complete waste of time speaking with someone so consistently obtuse. He acts as if behaving like a robot is some sort of endearing quality.

If you make are claiming something as fact, it's common practice to provide some sort of evidence to back up your claim.

Like your claim that there are Muslim prayer rooms in federal government offices. I don't think that there is any such prayer room in any federal office. Back up your claim... or it falls in to the category of silly hyperbole. You are so scared of the "Muslim Monster" that you make up facts to try and strengthen your argument.... very odd... :blink:

And when your argument is picked apart, you turn to personal attacks against the poster. Quite unseemly really...

Edited September 29, 2011 by The_Squid

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2011

Anyone else find it amusing how Michael Hardner fancies himself as some sort of philosopher? He thinks he's giving us a crash course in epistemology, or something.

Oh, GOD no ! :lol: I have a science degree, and know comparatively little about history, the arts, and so on. This is why I post such things here, to allow others to edify us.

I would like to hear from posters who are knowledgeable on such things, as I get the impression that some of the deeper questions considered and discussed here need background and context. Sometimes, I feel that posters here believe they're asking these questions for the first time.

it's hilarious. I bet if I said the NFL was the blackest professional sports organization he's demand a "cite", or if we told him that renters tend to take worse care of their homes than owners he'd demand "proof".

If I didn't believe it, sure I would. In your example, I may indeed ask for proof that the racial makeup is different than, for example, basketball. But not hockey.

It's a complete waste of time speaking with someone so consistently obtuse. He acts as if behaving like a robot is some sort of endearing quality.

Your opinions aren't of interest to most of us, especially because you're so set in your ways. If you had some evidence for your fanciful ideas, we would have something to talk about.

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2011

He's been hilarious lately. My favourite Hardnerism is when he told me I couldn't criticize his statement, because it was only his opinion. Apparently if you put the letters IMO after anything, it protects it from any scrutiny. I wasn't aware of this concept.

Not at all - you can criticize it all you way, but it's not a fact it's an opinion.

Similarly, people here have posted that they "believe" AGW isn't real. I can't argue that they don't BELIEVE it, but I can argue the facts.

September 29, 2011

Like your claim that there are Muslim prayer rooms in federal government offices. I don't think that there is any such prayer room in any federal office. Back up your claim... or it falls in to the category of silly hyperbole.

What about prayer rooms in public schools?

Honestly, I believe this is a huge mistake - a big step in the wrong direction.

Dedicated prayer rooms may be part of new approach by province’s schools

That's not acceptable in public schools, IMO. That's what private schools are for - which should be privately funded.

Bob · September 29, 2011

If you make are claiming something as fact, it's common practice to provide some sort of evidence to back up your claim.

Like your claim that there are Muslim prayer rooms in federal government offices. I don't think that there is any such prayer room in any federal office. Back up your claim... or it falls in to the category of silly hyperbole. You are so scared of the "Muslim Monster" that you make up facts to try and strengthen your argument.... very odd...

And when your argument is picked apart, you turn to personal attacks against the poster. Quite unseemly really...

It's a fact because people I know very well who work in federal departments have told me so. I'm not making it up, and I could care less whether or not you believe me. There are plenty of "reports" out there regarding similar things, such as prayer rooms being used in public schools and special time off being given to Muslims students who choose to pray with an Imam in places like lunch rooms/cafeterias and gymnasiums.

Bob · September 29, 2011

What about prayer rooms in public schools?

Honestly, I believe this is a huge mistake - a big step in the wrong direction.

Dedicated prayer rooms may be part of new approach by province’s schools

That's not acceptable in public schools, IMO. That's what private schools are for - which should be privately funded.

American Woman, it's already happening in certain federal offices. We've got this thing up here called Health Canada (I'm sure you're heard of it), it's our Canadian counterpart to your FDA. I know people who work for Health Canada who have told me that unofficial Muslim prayer rooms exists in their buildings. Usually a rarely used boardroom or a vacant office, but they exist.

If people can choose to use certain facilities for their religious observances, then so should any person for any other reason. If I want to go do a yoga session and meditation on my break, I should be permitted to use those rooms and be free from interruption. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2011

If I want to go do a yoga session and meditation on my break, I should be permitted to use those rooms and be free from interruption.

No, you shouldn't. No more than I could walk into your meditation/yoga room and start praying.

I don't get the sense from your posts that you're much of a team player. People who make problems for others continually should be rewarded with a separation package... they're so much easier to deal with when they're gone.

Bob · September 29, 2011

Oh, GOD no ! I have a science degree, and know comparatively little about history, the arts, and so on. This is why I post such things here, to allow others to edify us.

I would like to hear from posters who are knowledgeable on such things, as I get the impression that some of the deeper questions considered and discussed here need background and context. Sometimes, I feel that posters here believe they're asking these questions for the first time.

If I didn't believe it, sure I would. In your example, I may indeed ask for proof that the racial makeup is different than, for example, basketball. But not hockey.

Your opinions aren't of interest to most of us, especially because you're so set in your ways. If you had some evidence for your fanciful ideas, we would have something to talk about.

It's fine, you provide entertainment to the forum in how you view yourself as a logical and rational person who is dumbfounded by certain facts - such as certain ethnic groups being overrepresented in various barometers. Listening to you, one would be left with the impression that Somalian immigrants and their children in Canada aren't overrepresented in all things bad. And heaven forbid, in the event that sufficient "evidence" is provided to you to prove this, you'd then blame external factors such as phantoms of "racism" or "discrimination" that hold these people back.

Keep on asking for "proof", "cites", "studies", "research", or "evidence" of facts while thinking that acting like a robot is somehow an endearing quality that places you on a higher plain than the rest of us. When in fact, acting like a robot demanding "proof" of claims such as blacks being overrepresented in prison just tells us you live under a rock or are committed to being obtuse. Don't ever change, you're great comic relief.

Bob · September 29, 2011

No, you shouldn't. No more than I could walk into your meditation/yoga room and start praying.

I don't get the sense from your posts that you're much of a team player. People who make problems for others continually should be rewarded with a separation package... they're so much easier to deal with when they're gone.

Are you really unable to grasp the point I was making? The public service shouldn't be there to make special concessions and accommodations for every whim and desire of the workforce, whether it be Islam or yoga. And it certainly shouldn't be imploring its employees to adjust their ordinary behaviours in order to accommodate special interests.

Ah well, eventually we'll have Muslim prayer rooms everywhere. It's just a matter of time.

waldo · September 29, 2011

If people can choose to use certain facilities for their religious observances, then so should any person for any other reason. If I want to go do a yoga session and meditation on my break, I should be permitted to use those rooms and be free from interruption. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

brother Bob, is there not a 2-room solution that could be struck? As for your concerns over citation requests, you shouldn't feel threatened over requests for confirmation/facts...

BubberMiley · September 29, 2011

Ah well, eventually we'll have Muslim prayer rooms everywhere. It's just a matter of time.

Since they only exist in your head, why aren't they already everywhere?

The_Squid · September 29, 2011

What about prayer rooms in public schools?

Honestly, I believe this is a huge mistake - a big step in the wrong direction.

Dedicated prayer rooms may be part of new approach by provinces schools

That's not acceptable in public schools, IMO. That's what private schools are for - which should be privately funded.

You're preaching to the choir on that one.... I think any semblence of religion should be stripped away from all our public institutions. For any group.

However, Bob is talking about Muslim people using an available empty boardroom that anyone else can use as well...

If there are religious people that want to use an empty board room to pray on their own for a few minutes, I don't have an issue with that... I have used empty board rooms for my own contemplation from time to time... no difference.

There is a line that gets crossed by public institutions that are attempting to accommodate diversity to only accommodating a particular religious group for fear of being labelled as intolerant.

No public institution should be setting up prayer rooms for any group, let alone for a single religious group.

Edited September 29, 2011 by The_Squid

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2011

Ah well, eventually we'll have Muslim prayer rooms everywhere. It's just a matter of time.

I guess we'll see, won't we ? The future is a long way away, don't forget.

Michael Hardner · September 29, 2011

It's fine, you provide entertainment to the forum in how you view yourself as a logical and rational person who is dumbfounded by certain facts - such as certain ethnic groups being overrepresented in various barometers. Listening to you, one would be left with the impression that Somalian immigrants and their children in Canada aren't overrepresented in all things bad. And heaven forbid, in the event that sufficient "evidence" is provided to you to prove this, you'd then blame external factors such as phantoms of "racism" or "discrimination" that hold these people back.

Until you provide with some evidence to your claims, we will never know will we ?

Until you provide anything at all, we only have post after post from you here amounting to nothing at all.

I like facts. They're a good basis for opinions. Xenophobia, or prejudice isn't a good basis for opinions... in my opinion.

Keep on asking for "proof", "cites", "studies", "research", or "evidence" of facts while thinking that acting like a robot is somehow an endearing quality that places you on a higher plain than the rest of us. When in fact, acting like a robot demanding "proof" of claims such as blacks being overrepresented in prison just tells us you live under a rock or are committed to being obtuse. Don't ever change, you're great comic relief.

Who's the robot ? The person who spews their opinions based, apparently, on their imagination post after post after post ? Or the person that patiently asks them to back up their falsehoods.

You talk like facts are something to be avoided. I've never heard somebody position themselves so strongly against fact-based-opinion. But that's your way, I suppose.

Oleg Bach · September 29, 2011

If a person has faith - they are strong and do not need protection. The very early Christians with stood the worst horrors imaginable and through the merit of their faith survived. Muslims - Jews - Atheists - etc...are on their own - The state --or a private company should not be in the buisness of sustaining a religion...religion is supposed to be seperate from buisness and state. Ontario has no buisness entering into any sort of religious instruction in so far as giving guidance on religion.

Shwa · September 29, 2011

I didn't say they would be. Evidently it's your head that they exist in.

Right. No link, no proof. Thought so.

Shwa · September 29, 2011

American Woman, it's already happening in certain federal offices. We've got this thing up here called Health Canada (I'm sure you're heard of it), it's our Canadian counterpart to your FDA. I know people who work for Health Canada who have told me that unofficial Muslim prayer rooms exists in their buildings. Usually a rarely used boardroom or a vacant office, but they exist

.

I've worked in or around three levels of government for over 30 years and such spaces are made available for all kinds of groups, causes, special interests and workplace clubs. No big deal. At all.

If people can choose to use certain facilities for their religious observances, then so should any person for any other reason. If I want to go do a yoga session and meditation on my break, I should be permitted to use those rooms and be free from interruption. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

Of course it does happen, all the time, for all kinds of reasons. What planet are you from?

Heck, even The Office had "The Finer Things Club" illustrating how pervasive these sorts of things are at the modern workplace.

The Workplace as Clubhouse

Shwa · September 29, 2011

Anyone else find it amusing how Michael Hardner fancies himself as some sort of philosopher? He thinks he's giving us a crash course in epistemology, or something. it's hilarious. I bet if I said the NFL was the blackest professional sports organization he's demand a "cite", or if we told him that renters tend to take worse care of their homes than owners he'd demand "proof". It's a complete waste of time speaking with someone so consistently obtuse. He acts as if behaving like a robot is some sort of endearing quality.

Strawman. Yawn....

September 29, 2011

Right. No link, no proof. Thought so.

Good Lord. Why would I provide proof of something I didn't say!!? YOU said I said something I most definitely did not say - and then demanded that I prove what I didn't say. There aren't enough :rolleyes: 's in the world for that.

Oleg Bach · September 29, 2011

I guess we'll see, won't we ? The future is a long way away, don't forget.

The future exist in the next second. Bob might be right...just as we that started as a Christian nation gave privledge and protection to the Jews - we will give the same privledge and protection to the Muslims - but once the Muslims are fully entrenched in out society - they might not be as tolerant of us as the Jews are and were...they are a little more dogmatic in the frame of mind that consists of a conquering ancient corporate mindset - compliance...after all Islam does mean "submission" - to God - BUT as with all religions -eventually drift away from God and the submission will be to other human beings - Muslim human beings! Which is taking place as we speak _ I for one do not bow down to God - for God does not expect such foolishness - and I for one will never submit or bow to a Muslim...no matter how politically sensitized I am to that submission.

MiddleClassCentrist · September 29, 2011

Don't know what dictionary you're looking in, but no definition of "faith" I've ever seen said "defies logic." There are many, many people of faith, and to say they're less "logical" than those who don't believe reeks of a narrow mind.

"belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. "

Sounds completely illogical to me

Edited September 29, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

GostHacked · September 30, 2011

It's a fact because people I know very well who work in federal departments have told me so.

So you have not verified their claims? You simply took it at face value and treated it as fact?

I'm not making it up, and I could care less whether or not you believe me.

You may not be making it up that they said it. But they could have been lying to you.

There are plenty of "reports" out there regarding similar things, such as prayer rooms being used in public schools and special time off being given to Muslims students who choose to pray with an Imam in places like lunch rooms/cafeterias and gymnasiums.

Cough up the evidence Bob. Don't pussyfoot around it.

Michael Hardner · September 30, 2011

I for one will never submit or bow to a Muslim...no matter how politically sensitized I am to that submission.

Uh.. who do you submit or bow down to ?

Shwa · September 30, 2011

Good Lord. Why would I provide proof of something I didn't say!!? YOU said I said something I most definitely did not say - and then demanded that I prove what I didn't say. There aren't enough 's in the world for that.

Great Allah, it's all there under your account name. Maybe you were hacked and someone else wrote it. Yeah, that's the ticket.... :rolleyes:

I'm wondering if a memo will be passed around during the Christmas season, reminding people to be sensitive to Christians' mangers and Christmas trees and caroling ...... all of which, I'm sure, are allowed to be displayed.

Somehow a memo to staff regarding cultural sensitivities during Ramadan gets linked to the Christmas season, mangers, trees and caroling by American Woman through some intrisic, internal process of the memo itself. Like a magical memo that predetermines such linkages and wonderment because of "religious beliefs."

Riiiight.