Ontario employees sent memo about "sensitivity" to Muslims.

[Bob]

I'm laughing at the thought of Michael Hardner tripping over himself apologizing over and over for offering a Muslim co-worker a bite of his pork chops, and the Muslim co-worker wondering what all the fuss is about and why Michael Hardner is so deranged.

Why the hell would anyone be offended if you offered them some food that they are religiously prohibited from eating? People who would be so ridiculous need to be deported to Rwanda ASAP, along with Michael Hardner.

[guyser]

Without question Muslim Canadians do not outperform the average Canadian on any meaningful barometer. And if you want to get more precise,

Cite please, thanks

[Michael Hardner]

I'll trust the intelligent posters in this forum to decide for themselves, based on their own experiences and observations, whether or not Muslims in a broad sense outperform non-Muslim Canadians on any meaningful barometer.

Good idea. Since they CLEARLY DO outperform then it should be easy for them to make up their minds.

I can say from my experience that they clearly do on every level, and thanks to you I don't have to provide proof.

Well, actually I do have to provide proof - otherwise I'm not providing an objective argument, only a subjective one. And my experience may not be universal to others, and therefore not persuasive, and ... even worse ... will lead to dull "I says"/"You says" type discussions.

My experience with Muslims may come from the fact that I'm a bleeding heart liberal, or that I have only worked with educated folks in the IT profession, or a million other factors. This is why one has to provide proof.

In fact, I see individuals from all walks of life, and national background and religion aren't determining factors for me in the least, so I lied (to make a point) above.

But, you can hopefully see now why forum policy asks that you provide proof when stating facts. It makes for better discussion, and dissuades people from spouting on their own experiences, from their own perspectives, which are sometimes so far from universal that they are untrustworthy.

[Guest American Woman]

It's in the context though. People don't really give up much for Lent anymore.

Actually, yeah. People do still give things up for Lent, but are you saying because not everyone does, we don't have to be sensitive to those who do? But without really getting into that, you simply ignored the absence of "kosher food only in meetings during Passover" scenario, which is a very relevant comparison - and I'm sure you don't think 'Jews don't really celebrate Passover much anymore,' so your totally ignoring that aspect of my post is telling to me.

Muslim practices are new and unknown to many people. Most people wouldn't offer pork to a Jewish person, but they may not be aware that it's also against Muslim practices.

So teach them about that. I think that's great. But don't tell them they can't have a pork sandwich if there's a Muslim in the vicinity. That, as I said regarding the "no food meetings," is going too far - and that's the reality of this situation, not simply educating them, telling them that Muslims fast during Ramadan.

Context is important here.

So is the reality; especially the reality of the whole.

[Michael Hardner]

Why the hell would anyone be offended if you offered them some food that they are religiously prohibited from eating? People who would be so ridiculous need to be deported to Rwanda ASAP, along with Michael Hardner.

Thanks for offering to deport me.

What about refusing people to take off religious holidays ? This has caused me hardship at times in the past, but since I value team members I absolutely provide for it. Would you be 'offended' if I refused you a religious holiday off ?

[Michael Hardner]

Actually, yeah. People do still give things up for Lent, but are you saying because not everyone does, we don't have to be sensitive to those who do?

No... but it may not require a general notice to be sent around...

All of the Muslims I work with fast during Ramadan, and I haven't heard of anybody giving up anything for Lent even among my Catholic friends. So, yes, it's context.

But without really getting into that, you simply ignored the absence of "kosher food only in meetings during Passover" scenario, which is a very relevant comparison - and I'm sure you don't think 'Jews don't really celebrate Passover much anymore,' so your totally ignoring that aspect of my post is telling to me.

Actually, I would agree with that one, but Bob is ridiculing that idea elsewhere on the thread, and I think he's Jewish so he would know better than me.

So teach them about that. I think that's great. But don't tell them they can't have a pork sandwich if there's a Muslim in the vicinity.

I don't think that's on... People are still free to do what they want for the most part, including being insensitive to the point where they disrupt the workplace.

[guyser]

I'll trust the intelligent posters in this forum to decide for themselves, based on their own experiences and observations, whether or not Muslims in a broad sense outperform non-Muslim Canadians on any meaningful barometer

Oh my, get called on facts and this is what you post?

Thats it, put your tail between your legs . Cant cite it huh, dont worry, no one thought you would nor could ....yea, laughing. You are becoming a cartoon.

(they don't, that's why garbage neighbourhoods and subsidized-housing projects have plenty of them).

Regent Park was filled with white CDN born. Please let us know when they turned Muslim. Before they were poor or after they moved in. Thanks!

Koreatown filled with Koreans, when did they convert?

And the Jamaican hoods of TO, can you plewase show us when the conversion to muslim occured> Thanks in advance.

They don't need some 22-year-old social science student with a gig at Stats Can and a political agenda to tell them what to think based on a "study" that did a hundred surveys in Toronto.

Ahh, there is the denigrating scholastic studies and profs are all dumb. Failed did ya boob?

[Bob]

I know Muslims surgeons, engineers, lawyers, and accountants. Doesn't change the fact that Muslims are overrepresented in all things bad in Canada - welfare, crime, disease, academic underachievement, etc. It takes just a few moments to confirm this, go drive through trashy neighbourhoods and subsidized housing projects, and you'll see a much greater proportion of Muslims than they compose of the broader population. I'm sure it's the same thing in jail, and it's definitely true in the walk-in clinics and emergency rooms as many of them abuse our family reunification laws and bring over their diseased relatives.

[Michael Hardner]

Regent Park was filled with white CDN born.

When they're white, though, you should be sure to blame it on something besides race. Poverty, for example. And if they misbehave and they're white and NOT poor, then they're... well... just bad people. It doesn't represent anything for their race or religion.

The important thing is to select the root causes to align with your pre-existing ideas.

[Michael Hardner]

Doesn't change the fact that Muslims are overrepresented in all things bad in Canada

Hi Bob.

I'm going to ask you - as others have - for a cite for this. You driving around isn't proof. You're expected to research your posts here, otherwise the discussion descends into trash and from your posts you seem to have a negative view of trash.

[Bob]

As you'd expect, Statistics Canada doesn't collect this information because it's politically incorrect. I'm not here to convince anyone, I know the reality of the things I'm speaking of. It's irrelevant to me whether or not leftists like yourself choose to continually obfuscate and deflect (like Michael Hardner did with American Woman's repeated demonstrations of the double standard of "sensitivity" measures taken towards Muslims vs. non-Muslims) in order to cling to your fantasy perception of the world you wish existed, where all people and all groups are equal (hint - they're not).

[Bob]

Hi Bob.

I'm going to ask you - as others have - for a cite for this. You driving around isn't proof. You're expected to research your posts here, otherwise the discussion descends into trash and from your posts you seem to have a negative view of trash.

Do you also need proof that Jews and Asians outperform the average on most barometers? IQ? Income? Academic achievement? Lowered tendency to be involved in crime?

[guyser]

I know Muslims surgeons, engineers, lawyers, and accountants.

Sure ya do Harvey

Know any Kings or Presidents ?

[guyser]

When they're white, though, you should be sure to blame it on something besides race. Poverty, for example. And if they misbehave and they're white and NOT poor, then they're... well... just bad people. It doesn't represent anything for their race or religion.

The important thing is to select the root causes to align with your pre-existing ideas.

The point was a counter that all poor areas of TO are Muslims filled according to Harvey.

They clearly are not. bob s dumb agenda aside

[Michael Hardner]

As you'd expect, Statistics Canada doesn't collect this information because it's politically incorrect. I'm not here to convince anyone

Then why are you here ? There's no point in discussing unless you have an argument, and you don't.

Speaking of obfuscating - aren't you doing this yourself by making false statements and just repeating "it's true, it's true" ?

I don't think you understand the basics of argument - see the Rules and Guidelines it's pretty clear.

[Michael Hardner]

Do you also need proof that Jews and Asians outperform the average on most barometers? IQ? Income? Academic achievement? Lowered tendency to be involved in crime?

Yes, please.

[Guest American Woman]

No... but it may not require a general notice to be sent around...

Why? If some people are doing it, if it's important to some people's religious beliefs, why wouldn't it require a general notice to be sent around?

All of the Muslims I work with fast during Ramadan, and I haven't heard of anybody giving up anything for Lent even among my Catholic friends. So, yes, it's context.

Well, golly gee. I didn't realize that none of your Catholic friends give up anything for Lent and that your life sets the standard for what goes on in others' lives/the world. My bad, eh?

Actually, I would agree with that one, but Bob is ridiculing that idea elsewhere on the thread, and I think he's Jewish so he would know better than me.

Your feud with Bob has nothing to do with me, so I'll thank you to refrain from referring to it/him when responding to me and telling me what you think. That response feels like a total blow-off to me. Unless you actually believe Bob does know better than you and are deferring to him out of respect for his being Jewish - Is that the case?

I don't think that's on... People are still free to do what they want for the most part, including being insensitive to the point where they disrupt the workplace.

Interesting that you selectively quoted my post, leaving out what is "on." Once again, very telling....

[Michael Hardner]

Why? If some people are doing it, if it's important to some people's religious beliefs, why wouldn't it require a general notice to be sent around?

Context. Prevalence of the issue. That kind of thing.

Well, golly gee. I didn't realize that none of your Catholic friends give up anything for Lent and that your life sets the standard for what goes on in others' lives/the world. My bad, eh?

I'm just providing personal reasons for why I think this is happening. I have no proof that there are more people fasting for Ramadan in the public service than there are people fasting all day for Lent, but it seems quite likely to me. Do you disagree ?

Your feud with Bob has nothing to do with me, so I'll thank you to refrain from referring to it/him when responding to me and telling me what you think. That response feels like a total blow-off to me. Unless you actually believe Bob does know better than you and are deferring to him out of respect for his being Jewish - Is that the case?

What feud ? I'm just having a discussion with Bob - I have no personal feelings with him either way. I just wanted to point out that both discussions crossed paths. I would actually defer to Bob on this topic, as he seems to know more than me on this, yes.

Interesting that you selectively quoted my post, leaving out what is "on." Once again, very telling....

I don't have a big disagreement with your post, but the Lent example is off-base from my experience. This argument will likely end soon as I doubt either of us can provide evidence either way - assuming that you doubt my assertion that more people are fasting for Ramadan in the Ontario civil service than are fasting for Lent.

[Shady]

It's in the context though. People don't really give up much for Lent anymore. Muslim practices are new and unknown to many people. Most people wouldn't offer pork to a Jewish person, but they may not be aware that it's also against Muslim practices.

Context is important here.

This may be the dumbest thing anybody has said in this forum. Ever.

Maybe you don't know people that give up much for Lent, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. And it shouldn't matter if somebody offers pork to a Jew or a Muslim. Any normal person would say thanks, but I don't eat that type of food. We don't need government memos dealing with it.

Once again. Muslims can practice and believe whatever they want. Just don't ask everyone else to alter our lives because of it.

[Shady]

Well, golly gee. I didn't realize that none of your Catholic friends give up anything for Lent and that your life sets the standard for what goes on in others' lives/the world. My bad, eh?

Yep, I wasn't aware he spoke for the Catholic community either. I'm sure they'll be suprised too!

/facepalm

Interesting that you selectively quoted my post, leaving out what is "on." Once again, very telling....

He tends to do that. He's also master of the false choice.

[Wild Bill]

Yes, please.

This might be appropriate, at least for an Asian comparison.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-07/teens-in-u-s-rank-25th-on-math-test-trail-in-science-reading.html

"Fifteen-year-olds in the U.S. ranked 25th among peers from 34 countries on a math test and scored in the middle in science and reading, while China’s Shanghai topped the charts, raising concern that the U.S. isn’t prepared to succeed in the global economy.

The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development, which represents 34 countries, today released the 2009 Program for International Student Assessment. For the first time, the test broke out the performance of China’s Shanghai region, which topped every country in all academic categories. The U.S. government considers the test one of the most comprehensive measures of international achievement."

No doubt it's all Mike Harris' fault...

[Bob]

This might be appropriate, at least for an Asian comparison.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-07/teens-in-u-s-rank-25th-on-math-test-trail-in-science-reading.html

"Fifteen-year-olds in the U.S. ranked 25th among peers from 34 countries on a math test and scored in the middle in science and reading, while China’s Shanghai topped the charts, raising concern that the U.S. isn’t prepared to succeed in the global economy.

The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development, which represents 34 countries, today released the 2009 Program for International Student Assessment. For the first time, the test broke out the performance of China’s Shanghai region, which topped every country in all academic categories. The U.S. government considers the test one of the most comprehensive measures of international achievement."

No doubt it's all Mike Harris' fault...

One can only imagine what kind of bubble Michael Hardner lives in. It's as if he was born yesterday. Is it some sort of secret that certain ethnic groups outperform the average (Jews and Asians, for example) while others underperform and are overrepresented in all bad things (Island folks like Jamaicans and Haitians, most Muslims from Arab countries, Somalians, etc)? It's hilarious that the leftists keep calling for "proof", as if they weren't able to notice these truths while living their lives under a rock. Go to a university graduation once in awhile for a real program like mechanical engineering or biochemistry, and you'll see certain minority surnames pop up a lot. I went to a medical clinic the other and noticed that at least 8% of the physicians working there (it had all sorts of specialists and general practitioners) had Jewish surnames, and that was a conservative estimate considering that I was iffy on other surnames. Not bad, considering Jews compose about 2% of the Canadian population.

But of course, the endless refrain of "proof proof proof" for people who live with their heads buried in the sand and can't arrive at any conclusions whatsoever without a leftist professor from Carleton University telling them what to think.

[Michael Hardner]

This may be the dumbest thing anybody has said in this forum. Ever.

Maybe you don't know people that give up much for Lent, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

So if there's one person who might practice Lent, we should send a memo to everyone ? This sounds like service delivery that leftists usually propose, but good for you.

[Michael Hardner]

This might be appropriate, at least for an Asian comparison.

That compares Asian students vs. US students, I think. No other factors taken into account but ok.

[Michael Hardner]

One can only imagine what kind of bubble Michael Hardner lives in. It's as if he was born yesterday. Is it some sort of secret that certain ethnic groups outperform the average (Jews and Asians, for example)

I guess it must be a secret if you won't share the source of your information with us.

The rest of your post is really just bluster. You have no proof, so your assertions are just air.