Ontario employees sent memo about "sensitivity" to Muslims.

[Bob]

When orthodox Jews are flying planes into buildings and engaging in other suicide bombings around the world, let me know. You think this is just about clothing?

[guyser]

When orthodox Jews are flying planes into buildings and engaging in other suicide bombings around the world, let me know. You think this is just about clothing?

Dance boy dance !

I dont know if it is, just that I know it is you who has brought up the clothing as if it meant anything.

Come on bob, cant keep your myopic small minded hates in order? Confused are you?

Did I say anything about flying planes or suicide bombings? Did you, prior to this 3 posts back?

Goalposts they be a movin'

Edited September 28, 2011 by guyser

[Michael Hardner]

You think this is just about clothing?

As we've seen - you are the one who decides what it's about. If you say it's about clothing then it is. Until it's not, and you change it.

[Guest American Woman]

I would guess that it basically never happens, so it's not needed IMO.

Right. People giving up something for Lent "basically never happens." And we know this because ... your friends don't.

I don't think I threatened to report him. Doesn't sound like me.

If you weren't threatening to report him, what did this mean? quote name='Michael Hardner: In any case, I think it's insulting and against forum rules. Many insults have been thrown around in this thread, yet you didn't feel the need to reprimand other posters. So pray tell, what does it mean when the forum facilitator singles out a poster and tells them that they are breaking the rules? And I suppose this doesn't sounds like you, either: quote name='Michael Hardner: Rue's argument is pretty much an attack on Bud through and through. Too bad - it makes him look bad, makes his argument look bad and gets him reported.

Your quote from above: Again, I never said such a thing. Are you able to respond to what I actually say? I'm starting to doubt it. You either overlook what I say or change it into something it's not. But yeah, this "argument" is ending right now - as it's a complete waste of time responding to idiotic claims that I never made.

This was your post: As has been pointed out, memos aren't circulated reminding workers that some Christians have given up this or that for Lent, so please keep said food items out of meeting luncheons

Yes, that was my post and my quote. Now please kindly point out where I said anything about fasting, much less that I think just as many people fast for Lent as for Ramadan. I never said anything about "fasting" and I never said anything about "as many people."

Your response was totally off the wall.

Again, my response to that point - whomever initially made it - is that there isn't a requirement there.

Yes, I get that that's your response - I also get that you can't come up with any reason for it outside of the "no one I know gives anything up for Lent" mentality.

Now I am done with this, but do have a nice evening.

[Michael Hardner]

Right. People giving up something for Lent "basically never happens." And we know this because ... your friends don't.

I think I said that I have no way of verifying this, but ... do you disagree ? And we were talking about fasting, which is the specific case we were talking about.

If you weren't threatening to report him, what did this mean?

There are many more people hitting the 'report' button than just me. When people make obvious errors, there are often several 'reports' from such people.

Yes, that was my post and my quote. Now please kindly point out where I said anything about fasting, much less that I think just as many people fast for Lent as for Ramadan. I never said anything about "fasting" and I never said anything about "as many people."

Then why are we talking about Lent ? What government memo would need to make reference to Lent ?

Yes, I get that that's your response - I also get that you can't come up with any reason for it outside of the "no one I know gives anything up for Lent" mentality.

I have no idea how many people give up things for Lent, but I feel pretty safe in suggesting that there is no case where a similar memo (i.e. to the Ramadan memo) saying "don't offer food to people, in case they're fasting for Lent" would make sense.

You see, this is the problem with analogies, they often mangle the details of the original case. The point of the memo was to point out to people that Muslims fast during daytime over Ramadan. This is a new concept to a lot of people, and there seem to be significant numbers of Muslims that do this. Hence the need for the memo.

You can bring up an analogy if you like, but it needs to somewhat fit the original case. Do you see ?

[GostHacked]

You've joined the ranks of dre, GostHacked, and Peter F. All of whom are completely comfortable living in a Canada where all women wear hijabs (which means, of course, that all of Canada's women are Muslims). And guess what unites all of them? They're all leftists. What a surprise, that the left is comfortable with the destruction (or Islamization) of Canada...

Time for school Bob.

Recall where you had the range of 5%-100%? You know, this range you ask people that they are acceptable with? Anything under 5% is even acceptable to you, according to your own post. Since you did not put the question as 0-100%. Either way, red herring. The population of Muslims in Canada is under 5% at the moment from what I understand.

Not to mention I am not a leftist, or a rightist, (although I can use either hand when needed) I prefer not to buy into the whole left/right bullshit anyways, it's just another tactic to divide and conquere.

You are really stretching the truth Bob, and that says a lot about what kind of thought (if any) goes into your posts. Perhaps you are paid for by the Isreali government to spread the 'truth'?

Anyways regarding the real topic at hand :

I for one would like to have all schools not subject to any religion, christian, muslim, jewish or other. I recall when morning prayer was taken out of grade school here in Ontario. There was a big hadooo about that as well. I was really too young to understand the whys because, well my parents never forced any religion on me or my sister. But I accepted it (like I had a choice) and in the end decided it was the right move.

I will agree with you on one of your points Bob, no special treatment for any religion at the work place. I worked in a call center and there was a designated muslim prayer room. No other religion had it. If your religion interferes with your job, then yes that job is not for you. If your religion means more to you than that, get another job. I prefer my workplace to be as neutral as possible when it comes to religion. I am not a god-believer, so all you religious nutbars need to stay the hell away from me.

[GostHacked]

It's funny how I'm actually the one patriotic enough to assert the superiority of Western values (democracy, free markets, and secularism) over inferior cultures and societies, and you're trying to take some dig at me on a similar level. You're the one who lives in some moronic world of cultural relativism, where the Western way of life isn't any better, but just a different way of doing things. The irony is quite rich.

You wan't rich irony? Asserting those values enough to move to another country to drive others off the land they are living on.

Polite and sensitive? Me not bringing food into a lunchroom meeting because one of my co-workers is a Muslim is "polite and sensitive"?

Can't bring peanuts to class either, cause some other kids are sensitive.

And Bob , Rosh Hashana!

Edited September 28, 2011 by GostHacked

[Shady]

I will agree with you on one of your points Bob, no special treatment for any religion at the work place. I worked in a call center and there was a designated muslim prayer room. No other religion had it. If your religion interferes with your job, then yes that job is not for you. If your religion means more to you than that, get another job. I prefer my workplace to be as neutral as possible when it comes to religion. I am not a god-believer, so all you religious nutbars need to stay the hell away from me.

Well said. I couldn't agree more. I don't care what other people want to believe in terms of religion, and what they choose to practice. But I shouldn't have to, nor should anybody, conform in any way to it. This particular memo reeks of it. This is another example of perhaps Islam not being ready for western society.

[Guest American Woman]

I will agree with you on one of your points Bob, no special treatment for any religion at the work place.

Which is exactly the point several of us are making.

I prefer my workplace to be as neutral as possible when it comes to religion. I am not a god-believer, so all you religious nutbars need to stay the hell away from me.

You're not a god-believer so anyone who does believe is a "religious nutbar." Is that it?

Newsflash. People can believe in God and believe in separation of church and state and church and job and church and education and church and everything else.

[Scotty]

There are more white people in Ottawa's slums than Muslims, don't be a doofus about it.

There are more white people in Ottawa than Muslims... er.. I mean, there are more non-Muslims than Muslims in Ottawa.

Nevertheless, most street gangs are Muslim (Somalians). And Somalians are heavily involved in violent crime of every conceivable sort, from swarmings to prostitution to drugs to muggings to armed robbery to sexual assault. Lots of Lebanese involved too, particularly in drugs.

And there are tons of Somalians (not so much Lebanese) in Ottawa slums.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Scotty

[William Ashley]

Ramadan memo creates controversy

So Ontario public service employees were sent some memo about being "sensitive" to Muslims during the holy month of Ramadan, and "accommodating" their prayer/washing needs, and no displaying food during meetings and other gatherings because of their fast. So pathetic.

I think its considerate right up there with not hiding bacon in the salad or calling it "fake" bacon when it is real bacon. A bit like giving a sub to a vegan and saying it is "fake meat" when in fact it comes from Daisy (or just saying I know you are vegan and saying it is real meat). Or telling someone they are eating non dairy product when in fact is contains milk product. The Ontario government needs to start somewhere, at least it is with Muslims, maybe the corrections system/police can get on the things I mentioned for other people.

As a jew what would it be like if every meal contained milk and meat? It is good people are looking out for peoples religious backgrounds... not nearly enough is done, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Its people who oppose these things that are racist and really should have no voice in any public decision.

Far too many people are religiously non aware of other cultures and religions.. the government really does need to educate the public service on these issues, and I applaud them for it.

Edited September 28, 2011 by William Ashley

[GostHacked]

Which is exactly the point several of us are making.

Why thank you very much!!!

You're not a god-believer so anyone who does believe is a "religious nutbar." Is that it?

In a nutshell, yes. People of faith, are less about logic, there have been exceptions.

Newsflash. People can believe in God and believe in separation of church and state and church and job and church and education and church and everything else.

'God, keep our land , glorious and free'.

And what is on the US greenback? 'In God we trust'. ??

[Guest American Woman]

Why thank you very much!!!

Um. You're welcome?

In a nutshell, yes. People of faith, are less about logic, there have been exceptions.

I see. And that observation is the result of an open mind?

'God, keep our land , glorious and free'.

And what is on the US greenback? 'In God we trust'. ??

Believe it or not, the government doesn't consult me about these things. Rude, I know, but that's the reality.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I see. And that observation is the result of an open mind?

By definition, faith defies logic.

[Guest American Woman]

By definition, faith defies logic.

Don't know what dictionary you're looking in, but no definition of "faith" I've ever seen said "defies logic." There are many, many people of faith, and to say they're less "logical" than those who don't believe reeks of a narrow mind.

[Shady]

Don't know what dictionary you're looking in, but no definition of "faith" I've ever seen said "defies logic." There are many, many people of faith, and to say they're less "logical" than those who don't believe reeks of a narrow mind.

Exactly. There are brilliant people who are also religious. I'm not sure why people have decided to turn this into a religion bashing thread now. Like you've said, all most of us have suggested is no special treatment. That includes religions nutbars, government nutbars, environmental nutbars, etc. See GostHacked, there are all kinds.

[Michael Hardner]

Nevertheless, most street gangs are Muslim (Somalians).

Proof, or it didn't happen. Things that come solely from your mind aren't interesting to others. If this is true, I'd like to read about it from a reliable source.

Thanks.

[Michael Hardner]

We were explicitly taught that faith sometimes defies reason and logic. Otherwise, faith wouldn't be separate from knowledge.

Is it reasonable to think someone could work miracles, or defy death ? It's not. That's why faith is required. At least, that's how I was taught.

[Michael Hardner]

Faith and logic are by definition two separate things. That's not to say people who have faith are completely illogical either.

To add:

Although it's possible for the gentle soul to find a way to have these traits compliment each other, it seems more often that we find them in conflict - even in the same person.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Michael Hardner

[Bob]

Do none of you work in the public service in any serious positions or not know any people that do? They've already got quasi-Islamic prayer rooms in many government buildings. Someone very close to me advised me that where he works (a major federal organization), unused offices have become makeshift Muslim prayer rooms. Just another example of the path of self-destruction that Canada is currently on.

[The_Squid]

They've already got quasi-Islamic prayer rooms in many government buildings

Wow. Quite a claim. I visit several federal offices in BC for meetings, workshops and the like and know many federal civil servants with whom I am friends. Never have I ever seen or heard of a prayer room for Muslims. I'm calling bullshit on this one!!

Ironically though, the twin towers had one.... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html

[Guest American Woman]

Faith and logic are by definition two separate things. That's not to say people who have faith are completely illogical either.

To add:

Although it's possible for the gentle soul to find a way to have these traits compliment each other, it seems more often that we find them in conflict - even in the same person.

it seems more often that we find them in conflict - even in the same person.

Proof, or it's not true. Things that come solely from your mind aren't interesting to others. If this is true, I'd like to read about it from a reliable source.

Thanks.

[Michael Hardner]

it seems more often that we find them in conflict - even in the same person.

Proof, or it's not true. Things that come solely from your mind aren't interesting to others. If this is true, I'd like to read about it from a reliable source.

Thanks.

Opinions or general observations on the philosophy, human condition can't be proven. This is why I put the word 'seems' in there. These are personal observations.

You can disagree with them, but I didn't intend to start a debate on faith vs. reason. It's kind of ridiculous to debate a topic on MLW that philosophers have been considering for centuries - as though we could solve anything here.

Observation: "It seems people are in such a rush these days, and are so concerned with technology"

Could anyone expect to prove such a thing ?

The question of faith vs. reason deserves it's own thread. I started one:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19552

[Shwa]

One chooses to do that. But if you don't like current law, change it. There is no law mandating I submit to the beliefs and practices of Muslims. Once again, they can believe and practice what they want to. Just don't ask me to conform to it. Stop pushing your religion on me.

See? Here's the difference between a reasonable person and you.

A reasonable person sees a "memo" urging staff to be "sensitive" to another's needs as only a memo, making a fair and social suggestion, to a group of fair and social people.

A person like you, on the other hand, sees this as some sort of legal interpretation mandating you - and everyone else in society - to conform to some distasteful religion - it's practices and beliefs - being pushed on you.

Nuff said about that.

As for separate school boards, which clearly shows your idea of separation between church and state simply doesn't apply in Canada, is being paid for by your taxes whether you like it or not. So is the French language. Don't push your language on me. Boo-hoo...

When you get growed up and big enough, please try and have all the laws changed so that such memos are not having all these unlawful suggestions imposed upon our collective psyche and defiling us with their reasonableness.

It's not that you will be able to change such laws, it's just that such an effort would be good for a laugh.

[Shwa]

There are more white people in Ottawa than Muslims... er.. I mean, there are more non-Muslims than Muslims in Ottawa.

Nevertheless, most street gangs are Muslim (Somalians). And Somalians are heavily involved in violent crime of every conceivable sort, from swarmings to prostitution to drugs to muggings to armed robbery to sexual assault. Lots of Lebanese involved too, particularly in drugs.

And there are tons of Somalians (not so much Lebanese) in Ottawa slums.

Cite or it didn't happen.

~

There are more "tons" of white people involved in violent crime in Ottawa and plenty more of them in the slums and projects of Ottawa and in the Holiday Innes. Anyone can make unsubstantiated assertions, but we both know I am more right than you are.

Here's the problem: you want to "clean up" the crime and poverty problems and continually refer to the immigrant population as a source of the problem, when there are still many more "tons" of whites involved in crime and poverty. Maybe you should direct your efforts to cleaning up white crime and poverty since it represents the majority of the overall 47 billion dollar expense of crime?

You know, take care of your own first.