Do Canadians feel safer?

[Topaz]

A report out today says that the government has spent 92 Billion in security, post 9/11 and I'm wandering do you feel safer? I think more Canadians always felt safe they just feel POORER now. Of course, since joining NATO in Afghainstan that may have changed things, but I still feel poorer. Thoughts? http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/9-11-anniversary/Canada+dropped+billion+security+post+Report/5362869/story.html

Edited September 7, 2011 by Topaz

[Michael Hardner]

Of course I feel safer. We have had ten years of thwarted attacks, stepped up security procedures and a diminished threat.

Why wouldn't you feel safer ?

I don't feel safer than I did on September 10th, but we have left the garden of Eden and live in the real world today.

[GostHacked]

Of course I feel safer. We have had ten years of thwarted attacks, stepped up security procedures and a diminished threat.

Why wouldn't you feel safer ?

I don't feel safer than I did on September 10th, but we have left the garden of Eden and live in the real world today.

You are contradicting yourself here.

And I feel the same. No matter how much intrusive security there is, terrorism will always happen. And just because all this security theater was implemented since 9/11, does not mean it's actually effective in making us safer.

Edited September 7, 2011 by GostHacked

[Michael Hardner]

You are contradicting yourself here.

How so ? The question is do you feel safer post/911 and the answer is yes. It's obvious to me that one would feel less safe today than on 9/10 though.

[Michael Hardner]

And I feel the same. No matter how much intrusive security there is, terrorism will always happen. And just because all this security theater was implemented since 9/11, does not mean it's actually effective in making us safer.

You're right - it's very difficult to say how effective these things are in making us safer.

It's very difficult to evaluate anything that government does is effective, since the resources used, and the achievements are not well published before, during or after projects. And operational information isn't published either.

It would take the wind out of a lot of politics if government were more open about what they did.

[William Ashley]

A report out today says that the government has spent 92 Billion in security, post 9/11 and I'm wandering do you feel safer? I think more Canadians always felt safe they just feel POORER now. Of course, since joining NATO in Afghainstan that may have changed things, but I still feel poorer. Thoughts? http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/9-11-anniversary/Canada+dropped+billion+security+post+Report/5362869/story.html

I've been the victim of more petty crime since then. Also I've been a victim of attacks by the government and their empowered bodies. So no I don't feel safer. I feel more at risk of arbitary arrest or having my rights violated by the government than I did before - I use to like cops, now I see them as a potential threat everytime I encounter them - and it destroys any chance of cooperation more or less because my help could endanger someone else due to absence of proper safegaurds to protect "accused" or suspected individuals. Having been a victim of framing myself cops are now a threat. Also the reality of groups like Hells is ever more apparent, as you age the gangs from 15 20 years ago become more organized and one time petty thugs or hoodlums have gone to jail and made hard core connections. The system itself infested with criminal elements, and people who have a blue wall type mentality in the entire justice system.

Meanwhile the same people that were temperamental or culturally intolerant now feel super empowered by the media to be jerks.

The racial conflict of a once multicultural society now have even more fisures in interracial gangs throughout the area, with even murders appearing.

Things havn't changed much but the level of violence, animosity and hate by both the government and the subcultures have increased over the last 10 years.

People are still generally cool but there is a lot more threat out there now, and the potential for violence has skyrocketed because of the gravity of force of the government creating an opposition on the street. The stakes are higher now. The activities the same.

The threat to Canada from external threats was almost non existent before they started invading and bombing other countries.

The only result of security measures I've seen is myself being hassled more by the government, and more and more delays (and costs) (but my money is from the government anyway.. so it is just less freedom to use funds on more stuff more limited economic constraints).

Its not as if I couldn't carry out an attack, but being aware of the security mechanisms it would allow me to plan around them anyway so it is a redundancy.

What gives me the most concern is that it only empowers an easier draconian fascist and totalitarian non humanitarian rule, that is the real threat. We don't need regimes like the Harper Government in Canada - we need a Government of Canada that respects the rule of law, freedom and democracy. (Both within Canada and abroad)

Edited September 7, 2011 by William Ashley

[GostHacked]

You're right - it's very difficult to say how effective these things are in making us safer.

Just makes things a lot more inconvenient for people.

It's very difficult to evaluate anything that government does is effective, since the resources used, and the achievements are not well published before, during or after projects. And operational information isn't published either.

That is part of the problem. They will tell us they are making us safer without showing us the facts. Just because no terror attack has happened since 9/11, they can make the claim it is making us safer. But as soon as the next one hits (and it will) more security will be put in place.

It would take the wind out of a lot of politics if government were more open about what they did.

You are right, they have no problems with keeping a camera eye on all of us at all times, but as soon as we turn those cameras back on them, they get all uppity about it. That's enough proof for me to know they are not doing things the right way. They always say that if we have nothing to hide, then the camera should not bother you. Tell that to a politician.

[eyeball]

Have we done anything about the root causes of insecurity?

Economics apparently still trumps virtue so I'd have to say no and the longer this remains the case we'll always be parked in harm's way.

[Michael Hardner]

Just makes things a lot more inconvenient for people.

No, not 'just'. It definitely provides a measure of security, and peace of mind. The only question is 'how effective' and 'how efficient' is the system.

That is part of the problem. They will tell us they are making us safer without showing us the facts. Just because no terror attack has happened since 9/11, they can make the claim it is making us safer. But as soon as the next one hits (and it will) more security will be put in place.

There have been thwarted attacks and arrests, though, and that counts for something.

[Michael Hardner]

Economics apparently still trumps virtue so I'd have to say no and the longer this remains the case we'll always be parked in harm's way.

Economics is likely part of it, as is identity. Did we do anything about those things ? We invaded them and bombed them into the ground, then set up quasi-democracies. I'm hopeful that some good will come out of this misery.

[Wild Bill]

No, not 'just'. It definitely provides a measure of security, and peace of mind. The only question is 'how effective' and 'how efficient' is the system.

There have been thwarted attacks and arrests, though, and that counts for something.

I agree, Michael. I'm glad they pay more attention at airports but the WAY they pay attention frankly seems lowbrow and "mickey mouse", like something organized by a high school student committee. Actually, the high schoolers likely would have done a better job!

At least, no one will slit my throat with a toenail clipper! When reading about what articles they have banned on airplanes I always think about that old Monty Python skit, where the drill instructor trains the men in "What to do if you're attacked by a man with a strawberry!"

Now the Israelis, they have REAL security! Instead of minimum wage graduates of some quickie community college course with not even a can of Mace, they have university graduates employed by government security firms, well paid, highly intelligent and armed with Uzis!

Instead of large numbers of cheap, poorly trained security workers Israel uses far fewer but MUCH more well trained and intelligent agents! Instead of a "rote list" of procedures to follow Israel relies on the good sense of their agents, so that they can indentify REAL threats and leave most innocent passengers alone and free of aggravation.

Being a techie, hearing "rah rah" talk from some politico doesn't make me feel safer until I see the details of HOW that "rah rah" talk is supposed to work!

[fellowtraveller]

it's very difficult to say how effective these things are in making us safer.

It is not difficult to say, but it is difficult to quantify.

We'll just have to suck it up on that one, because security is best served in part behind closed doors. One reason is that secuirty starts with intelligence, and when intelligence info is public it is rendered worthless or worse than worthless. What we see at airports or at Olympic venues is just the pointy end of the stick.

[Wild Bill]

What we see at airports or at Olympic venues is just the pointy end of the stick.

Looks to me more like the pointy ends of some management heads!

[Michael Hardner]

It is not difficult to say, but it is difficult to quantify.

We'll just have to suck it up on that one, because security is best served in part behind closed doors. One reason is that secuirty starts with intelligence, and when intelligence info is public it is rendered worthless or worse than worthless. What we see at airports or at Olympic venues is just the pointy end of the stick.

Yes, very true and a better choice of words than mine: difficult to quantify.

[fellowtraveller]

Looks to me more like the pointy ends of some management heads!

Yep, rules at airports are inconvenient. Would you prefer having to remove your shoes, or flying at 600 kilometers per hour into the CN Tower??

[William Ashley]

No, not 'just'. It definitely provides a measure of security, and peace of mind. The only question is 'how effective' and 'how efficient' is the system.

There have been thwarted attacks and arrests, though, and that counts for something.

Ok now which ones wern't planted by government agents?

Also check this out.. #2 actually shocked me that it was so blatant

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2011/09/top-5-at-5-russian-plane-crash-harper-on-security.html

Dear Mr. Harper:

When you use the word Islamicism it makes you look stupid, they are Called MUSLIMS. For someone who says they are Canada's biggest threat you should know atleast what they are called, or would that be radicalizing yourself?

If you arn't talking about the people it is "ISLAM" you know that religion that is one of the largest in the world.

Islamic law is known as Sharia Law. It is Muslim common law.

Real Muslims follow Sharia Law, much that same that those Canadians who do not follow Canadian common law or church cannon law are "offending society"

It is as if police started enforcing all laws it would be appropirate to use a term like Canadianism. Or Canada in Afghanistan and Libya is a threat to those areas due to Canadianism.

I don't think creating a new word is really required.

The biggest threat to the Harper government is not Islamicism it is Canadianism - and I think you know why.

Some of these don't include cutting your head off.

http://www.al-islam.org/laws/

Your Jewish freinds whereever they may be actually have many of the same laws.

The article is actually very intersting

Tories to resurrect controversial anti-terrorism laws

Harper said his government will bring back anti-terrorism clauses that were brought in in 2001 but were sunset in 2007 amid heated political debate.

Edited September 7, 2011 by William Ashley

[dre]

How so ? The question is do you feel safer post/911 and the answer is yes. It's obvious to me that one would feel less safe today than on 9/10 though.

Thats not obvious to me at all. A canadians chance of dying in a terrorist attack is probably a lot lower than being struck by lightening. Its so incredibly remote that you can hardly consider it.

A much more REAL source of fear is what our own government might do in response to how we percieve that threat. That is much more rational fear... security obsessed governments do some crazy things. Last time there was a really big security scare we rounded up 10 thousand canadians and interned them in camps.

[Michael Hardner]

Thats not obvious to me at all. A canadians chance of dying in a terrorist attack is probably a lot lower than being struck by lightening. Its so incredibly remote that you can hardly consider it.

A much more REAL source of fear is what our own government might do in response to how we percieve that threat. That is much more rational fear... security obsessed governments do some crazy things. Last time there was a really big security scare we rounded up 10 thousand canadians and interned them in camps.

Call me crazy, but I'm less afraid of being interned than a terrorist attack.

[WWWTT]

That is part of the problem. They will tell us they are making us safer without showing us the facts. Just because no terror attack has happened since 9/11, they can make the claim it is making us safer. But as soon as the next one hits (and it will) more security will be put in place.

I believe your comment is wrong.9/11 did not happen in Canada so I believe Canada has never bein successfully targeted by any Islamic extreme group in a terrorist attack.Aswell there have bein "domestic" terror bombings in Canada after the American 9/11 attack(I would have to research for exact dates and locations).

I actually feel less safe under the anti Islamic Harper government.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Call me crazy, but I'm less afraid of being interned than a terrorist attack.

Thats because your faith is not Islamic

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Yep, rules at airports are inconvenient. Would you prefer having to remove your shoes, or flying at 600 kilometers per hour into the CN Tower??

What can anyone possibly have concealed within their shoes that would cause an aircraft to veer of course and collide with a tall structure?

WWWTT

[Argus]

A report out today says that the government has spent 92 Billion in security, post 9/11 and I'm wandering do you feel safer? I think more Canadians always felt safe they just feel POORER now. Of course, since joining NATO in Afghainstan that may have changed things, but I still feel poorer. Thoughts? http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/9-11-anniversary/Canada+dropped+billion+security+post+Report/5362869/story.html

Safer? Perhaps I know too much about how screwed up our 'security' organizations are to ever put much reliance on them.

I wouldn't trust the RCMP to keep terrorists out of their own headquarters. As for CSIS, I understand the primary requirement for any agents with that organization is fluency in French. The military are largely useless for this sort of thing, for preventing attacks, and the coast guard - get serious. You could probably land a million people on either coast without the coast guard noticing a thing. Not that you'd need to, for the easiest way for a terrorist, or group of terrorists to sneak into Canada is to get on a commercial airliner, flush their documents, and claim refugee status. A few hours after landing they'll be free and on the streets, able to meet up and organize whatever it is they intend on doing.

No, the only border we have which is even remotely secure is the American one - because they secure it. The only safety we have is that the US is a big, fat irresistible target to the south, and terrorists would much rather hit them than us.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Thats because your faith is not Islamic

Are you Islamic ?

[capricorn]

Also check this out.. #2 actually shocked me that it was so blatant

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2011/09/top-5-at-5-russian-plane-crash-harper-on-security.html

You're just not used to hearing Canadian politicians in "real speak". No pussyfooting around and no political correctness so as not to offend anyone's sensibilities and fragile ears. Rather refreshing I think.

I don't think creating a new word is really required.

Oh. So you think Harper created the word "islamicism". Did you google the word? If you do you'll find many entries where where the term was used by others, even on book titles.

http://www.amazon.ca/Cultural-Roots-American-Islamicism/dp/0521852935

[William Ashley]

Not that you'd need to, for the easiest way for a terrorist, or group of terrorists to sneak into Canada is to get on a commercial airliner, flush their documents, and claim refugee status. A few hours after landing they'll be free and on the streets, able to meet up and organize whatever it is they intend on doing.

lol

Edited September 8, 2011 by William Ashley